Choy Lee Fut's Dragon techniques

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

I second you brother. Note I NEVER stated that you HAVE to compete in MMA to “know how to fight.” In fact I think several people (I think you know who) at our Kwoon have learned how to handle themselves quite well (Jin and those Mexicans remember?), at least decently well in the street.

I simply state that it’s the most realistic setting to spar; train under as far as “realism” goes. . . . . . . . I mean, be real now. I’ve heard many kung fu say how their stuff is deadly. . . . . then they put on the San Shou gloves. . . . and from the video clips I’ve seen (won’t say of which school) they really look like bad kickboxing with good throws (bad striking, good throws. hmmmm.). But. . . . . I see the ref stopping the fight 3 seconds into the Clinch?

Come on now!!! What’s the meaning of this?!? On “the street” no one’s going to stop the clinch? You’re going to get elbowed, kneed, headbutted, fu jowed, chop choyed, etc. . . . . . . . . .

But does that stop me from fighting under San Shou rules? Of course not!!! San Shou is fun, I like being able to sweep and trip and throw, even though I suck at it. I view it as another part of training. I don’t view it as detrimental at all!!!

Same with the MMA, Muay Thai or Boxing rules. When you fight under one of these, it FORCES you to adapt to the situation at hand. In the end, you’re honing DIFFERENT skillsets, which all add up together. For example, in MT you can’t do hip throws, which forces you to perfect your sweeps and trips, and your elbows and knees in the Clinch. In Boxing, it forces you to punch well, learn to bob/weave/fade/roll/slip and counterattack, parrying, catching, etc. In MMA you learn how to combine striking with wrestling, and submission, and of course ground n pound. . . .. but without being an expert at any of those. With MMA you fight in a well-rounded format.

As CLF fighters we should seek out and explore these formats, and test our Fist against it. Am I saying drop CLF? HELL ****ING NO. CLF is my favorite; it will always be my most beloved Fist. . . . Art. I can’t live without my Poon Kiu Sau Choys, my Gwa-Kups, Rolling Chop Choys. . . . . . .

But, as a CLF man, as someone who stresses and believes in the evolution of an Art, I believe that we should open our eyes to new possibilities. Don’t just confine yourself to one set of rules, one setting. . . . . if you’re training purely for “self-defense” and is very focused on drills, try sparring. If you just spar, do some drills. If you do MMA, learn to fight without grappling. If you do Brazilian JiuJutsu, learn to fight a striker. If you’re a Thai Boxer learn to just box. . . . improve your punching. If you’re San Shou, learn to clinch, learn to elbow and knee more efficiently.

Guys. . . “the street” isn’t some sort of lava-filled, molten rocks, broken glass,

Sihing Fu-Pow, just to make things VERY CLEAR I never said, nor did I intend to say, you MUST be a “professional fighter to know how to fight.” Even at the MMA place, the MAJORITY are hobbyists. There are kids. There are older men. There are girls, women. The Majority do it to stay fit, have fun, and learn in a good atmosphere.

And I agree 100% about the TWO EXTREMES. Side A) You MUST do MMA/NHB or else you can’t fight!!! TMA is crap!!! Die Kung Fu DIE!!!

Side B) Kung Fu is TEH DEADLY DUDE!!! MMA is NOT STREET!!! MMA will get killed in a “REAL FIGHT.” NHB IS ARTIFICIAL!!! THEY CAN’T ACTUALLY FIGHT!!!

Take one stance, and you’re being an ass, a moron, and a devolutionist. You’re causing the disintegration of Martial Arts as a whole, be it boxing or kung fu, karate or judo.

I HATE both sides. I HATE the MMA folks who think their stuff is the end-all to everything. I HATE the Kung Fu cat who spouts his own deadliness because of his Ego. Ego is the issue at hand. Some people are just plain too arrogant to admit that their way of training ISN’T PERFECT, that they can ALWAYS IMPROVE.

Other times, it’s the whole stereotype. All Kung Fu is pussies, nerds, weaklings. All MMA/NHB are blood-thirsty, violent, convicted criminals.

Guys. . . . that’s not it. Both sides have arrogant ones, both sides have humble ones. What got me was Green Cloud’s behavior: blatant, nonsensical blabbering in regards to MMA. I mean, don’t tell something they suck. If you think you can handle yourself well in the Cage. . . . . by all means try it. And don’t complain about the rules. If you can’t kill them, that means they can’t kill you either.

And trust me, there are headlocks in Submissions that if used with a slightly different angle, will break your poor little throat. If you don’t think so then go to a class and learn some head cranks. Even if people like Green Cloud “can kill” someone, whether he’ll even get a chance is another matter as well. Most likely, he’ll go for it, fail, then get pounded in the face.

I may come off as angry and arrogant, but I’m trying hard not to be. I seek only to promote CLF, improve CLF, and improve myself. If learning Submission will improve my game, then SO BE IT. I wonder, if Chan Heung was alive, and he saw Royce Gracie manhandling people twice his size, would be become interested in the system? I can’t speak for Chan Heung, but I’m guessing. . . . YES. He would become interested in it, as it presents something totally different from what he’s doing.

REMEMBER: It’s the HIGHLY PROBABLE techniques that take the most precedence. Not some esoteric dim mak, death attack, eye gouge, etc. . . . . . You should train your Low Risk Attacks, and use those more since the probability of them succeeding is so much higher.

High Risk Attacks such as flying knees, spinning elbows, flying pantherfists, eye gouges, etc. . . . . will NOT SUCCEED most of the time. They can expose you, leave you open, leave you flanked, etc. That’s why they’re HIGH RISK ATTACKS.

So in other words, a neck break, which must be executed in a specific way, will be MUCH HARDER to pull off correctly and precisely than a knee to the face.

Not that the neck break won’t work; you might just be skilled enough that you can do it precisely and quickly. But if the other fighter is of relatively equal skill, using a high risk vs. low risk attack is simply foolish.

I hope I didn’t come off as some egotistical *******. I really don’t. But I’m trying to make my statement. Disagree if you will, but please keep the peace.

Peace

22

One of the reasons CLF is such a great style is its adaptablility. It can change an morph at the drop of a hat to deal with whatever scenario may be presented.

My sarcastic comment earlier is in regard to MMA people who, just as HSK pointed out, say anything not able to be used in a ring is not worth learning. The fact I chose 1 application (which was demonstrated through photos) and made a comment. I have been training in CLF long enough to see that techniques and realize the other varied applications as well. Including the other 2 spoken of on this thread.

If you have such a har d on(I wonder if that word will get censored) for MMA thats cool. One of my instructors LOVES MMA and all it involves. Me, I’m not a big fan. It’s not that I don;t think MMA guys are great martial artsists, they have very good knowledge. Not to mention the size of their sacs for getting into the cage to begin with. However, it is not the be all and end all of training.

If attacked on the street, would I rather know how to break a guys neck, or not have that weapon? The more you know, the more you train, the better off you are. Knowing the Dragon Plays with Ball technique puts you in a position to break a neck…and if it is a gang jump, you have every right to kill one, as you are now in fear for your life.

As for the little passive agressive comments about my ground skill…which I shall quote

Let’s say the DO allow that neck crank of yours. OK, no problem. MMA fighter shoots. You try to defend. Do you sprawl or what? I have no clue.

Most likely, he takes you down. MMA fighter preceeds to escape your guard (that’s if you have one) and proceeds to gain side control or mount. If you have zero ground game, it’s pretty much a mount like taking candy from a baby.

While CMA is my bread an butter CLF/Lama is what I train…using only these skills I was able to best a state champion wrestler on the ground. I was younger and stupid, had he challenged me today it would be stand up too (no use playing on his turf). Now you may say beating a State Champion wrestler is not a big deal…and I agree I jaked him up quick, but my point is, not all CMA guys have no ground game. In fact, I believe, the more you train in CMA the more you get a feel for body positioning and the like, which is invaluable on the ground. It’s like trapping but closer.

In closing, you have your opinion, and I have mine. You are welcome to yours. But when you fly off the handle over a 1 line back handed comment I made in jest (see the :rolleyes: ?) am I to take you seriously? This is a concern I have about these whole internet relations…We want to discuss a topic and people are more likely, due to the anonymity of the internet, to fly and begin issuing insults, vulgar comments and threats…and guess what, it does nothing to further your position. Only makes you look like an overinflated paper tiger…

23

High Risk Attacks such as flying knees, spinning elbows, flying pantherfists, eye gouges, etc. . . . . will NOT SUCCEED most of the time. They can expose you, leave you open, leave you flanked, etc. That’s why they’re HIGH RISK ATTACKS.

So in other words, a neck break, which must be executed in a specific way, will be MUCH HARDER to pull off correctly and precisely than a knee to the face.

Not that the neck break won’t work; you might just be skilled enough that you can do it precisely and quickly. But if the other fighter is of relatively equal skill, using a high risk vs. low risk attack is simply foolish.

Martial Arts is like finance…the greater the risk the greater the reward…

If I am jumped by a gang, as you posited earlier in the thread. And one guys shoots in on me, and 3 more are coming, what should I do? Knee him in the face, that means he’s still there and there are still 3 more guys. Let him take me to the ground??? Or break his neck, then work on the next three???

And then what about the eye gouge being a high risk technique? if I Biu some one to the eyes, it has the same risk as a jab or cross??? I’m leaving the same opening?? Why not blind the attacker instead?

24

GreencloudCLF,

Infrazeal is very passionate about his skills and his style, and i can see where he’s coming from. if a choy lee fut school claims to be a fighting school but all they do is practice forms all day, i would be skeptical too when it came to fighting.

but you are right to see it the way you do. its the same way i see it. but when it comes to being jumped by 4 people or more, i would try to fight each and every one. i would know that the odds are against me and unless i get some lucky blows and drop those fools i believe that the only option i have is to grab the nearest one and beat the shet out of him, and when they start pounding me i grab that neck and hold on for dear life. if i gotta go, then i need some company and im taking one of them with me.

seriously, in that situation i would be using all the dirty tricks from eye guages to stun them for a second which would allow me to throw some more techniques. i;d kick scratch, bite, pull hair, throw some dirt, hit them with garbage cans, newspaper stands or anything at my arms grad which may help me win against such bad odds.

rest assured GreencloudCLF you’re right and your sifu is training you right as well.

hsk

25

GreencloudCLF,

Infrazeal is very passionate about his skills and his style, and i can see where he’s coming from. if a choy lee fut school claims to be a fighting school but all they do is practice forms all day, i would be skeptical too when it came to fighting.

but you are right to see it the way you do. its the same way i see it. but when it comes to being jumped by 4 people or more, i wouldnt try to fight each and every one. i would know that the odds are against me and unless i get some lucky blows and drop those fools i believe that the only option i have is to grab the nearest one and beat the shet out of him, and when they start pounding me i grab that neck and hold on for dear life. if i gotta go, then i need some company and im taking one of them with me.

seriously, in that situation i would be using all the dirty tricks from eye guages to stun them for a second which would allow me to throw some more techniques. i;d kick scratch, bite, pull hair, throw some dirt, hit them with garbage cans, newspaper stands or anything at my arms grad which may help me win against such bad odds.

rest assured GreencloudCLF you’re right and your sifu is training you right as well.

hsk

26

I’m not saying that you did but I’m pointing out the other ridiculous extreme… because as ridiculous as the “too deadly” argument sounds this sounds just as ridiculous…and I don’t here a lot of MMA people saying this…just like I don’t hear a lot of TCMA people using the “too deadly” argument.

IMO it’s a “straw man” argument that the MMA fanatics put up so they can easily knock it down. Any martial artist worth his salt will tell you that you need some level of contact training…the form and intensity of that contact is what all the argument is about.

Furthermore, there are a lot of reasons that people don’t “compete” that don’t have anything to do with there skill level or ability. Maybe it’s ethical reasons, concerns about being able to go to work the next day, etc. etc. You can say that’s an “excuse” but it might be a very valid excuse.

I simply state that it’s the most realistic setting to spar; train under as far as “realism” goes. . . . . . . . I mean, be real now. I’ve heard many kung fu say how their stuff is deadly. . . . . then they put on the San Shou gloves. . . . and from the video clips I’ve seen (won’t say of which school) they really look like bad kickboxing with good throws (bad striking, good throws. hmmmm.). But. . . . . I see the ref stopping the fight 3 seconds into the Clinch?

What is “real?” What is realistic? OK, now we’re getting into some pretty deep philosophical issues. In many ways this mirrors the conflict between science and religion. What the MMA crowd (I use that label very loosely) wants is a “martial science.” They want peer-viewed empirical evidence (ie sensimotor data that you can see, hear, taste, touch or smell) to back up any abstract martial theory. So they’ve set up a controlled lab environment like a “lab” (ie MMA, NHB events) in which to test theory against hard empirical evidence.

That’s science as far as I’m concerned. Nothing is taken on faith. It demands from day one in your training that you can see it, hear it, taste it, touch it, smell it.

However, IMO what it is lacking is any depth or variety. It lacks any abstraction of principles or an underlying theory that would allow it to be applied to multiple situations. This what TCMA brings to the table because layers upon, layers of empirical human experience have been recorded, abstracted and put into these forms, techniques, drills, health exercises, principles, etc. K

However, because of that very nature I believe that it can also be adapted to the ring. Some of it that is. The layers of experience that have been put into these forms also include aspects which are from another point in time where health and self-defense were primary concern over “fighting” or sport. So that stuff has to be unpacked very carefully because it is intended to kill or maim.

In some ways you can empirically verify that it “works.” Your Sifu can give empirical evidence in the form of twisting your arm or neck. You can feel the pain or pressure on the joint or that you suddenly have no balance. But it’s very difficult to train this stuff in a fast “pressure” situation like MMA because IF it works the likelihood that someone could get seriously injured is very high.

Other stuff you can “unpack” and use in the ring. Some you can’t and you have to use your IMAGINATION and find other ways to train it. For example, look at the CLF dummies, there are like 18 different dummys that let you go full blast against solid wood and sandbags. That’s an imaginative way to train things that you would never want to do on another person.

But because we can’t test something under certain set of “labratory conditions” does it mean we throw it out all together?God I hope not. I think that would be really stupid because it might be something that we need in a different set of conditions.

If we can’t get something to work in the ring or under other conditions then I believe it should be shelved.

IMO what MMA or any other combat sport brings to the table is an opportunity to test certain techniques under “pressure”( meaning time constraints and threat of pain or injury.) That can be valuable but let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

FP

27

sorry

HKS im very sorry about the bs you had to put up with when you started this thread. im also very sorry about my sidi infrazeal, he is young and very egar to learn everything he can, you can remember what that was like. We are all Choy Lay Fut brothers here, we all have good skills. Remember in our system is to be humble.. Thank you for sending the pictures, by the way Mak Han Fi is my sifu..

Havick

28

havick1,

its no problem. i understand where he is coming from. and i support him in his gung fu quest. I have his back if needed as i do you since we are all CLF and through that we are all brothers. sometimes brothers argue but never resort to blows.

Pls, go to your sifu and pls tell relay this message from my sifu whomi im on the phone right now…“Gung Hey Fay Choy sun nin fai lok.” tell him to keep in touch. my sifu likes your sifu.

29

no problem

I will relay the message

havick

30

How does your sifu stop the momentum of the person rushing in? Usually grapplers go lower to the legs - does the technique work in that situation?

I’ve never seen the jaws of the dragon used in the UFC. why?

31

"How does your sifu stop the momentum of the person rushing in? Usually grapplers go lower to the legs - does the technique work in that situation? "

my guess, is that since you are describing a different situation, it would call for a different technique, or a variation on this one, such as combining it with a sprawl.
You are again asking the same question, as you did in your last post-“would it work against a jab?” You still don’t get it.
Gung-Fu, as in ALL Martial Arts, ALL Fighting, is about adaptability. It is certainly not one-dimensional thinking, one technique. You need to think outside the box.
Actually, you need to spend more time studying, training, and learning, so you can understand what is being said, rather than trying to put it down.
I do, however appreciate that your tone seems to have changed a bit as of late. What you have asked is indeed a valid question, and not a blatant put-down.

(unless you would like to edit it!:smiley: )

32

Sure, and if you stop the momentum and they try to rise into a clinch, then that particular technique may have some validity again.

Thanks for sharing Frank.