I wanted ask a few questions regarding CLF combat tactics.
First, I wanted to know how the CLF fighter deals with advancing in on and attacking one’s opponent. What techniques do you use (i.e., gwa, sao, tsop, etc.)? What combinations of these techniques? I understand that there is an ulimited array of approaches, but I’m interested in hearing some of your perspectives.
Secondly, one of the core principles of CLF is using one’s body to maximize the power of an attack. How do you determine whether to fully execute a technique (including the full body movements and fully extended strike) versus using shorter more compact variant of the same technique?
Finally, how do you avoid leaving yourself exposed and vulnerable when executing techniques with (or sequences of techniques) with the full extensions and body movements (ex. using gwa+kam>yum tsop like it appears in the forms)?
Any and all of the principles can be used.
The long and short movements are essentially the same, it’s just you hit them at different points.
Attacks are almost always paired with a covering motion.
Ben, even thou it’s true, saying that attacks have a covering movement doesn’t say a lot. The fact is that the long techniques used in CLF do leave you somewhat open, if you compare them to some other CMA styles. IMO the key to succesful use of CLF is in continuity.
But also you have to remeber that sometimes the chances are that you are going to get hit. The goal is to keep going with the combination despite the hit and then finish with a KO techinque. Of course, this kind of fighting doesn’t suit everybody and is propably better suited with a really strong person. It’s not my style of fighting but I know people who fight like this.
hello, check out this site. www.joybotsin.com, video trailer of joy yau bew sey, Grandmaster Dino Salvatera shows apps to movements out of the set. hope this helps.
Hey Frank… How are ya man? Have not herad for you in a while… I have been busy travelling between our 2 schools and website stuff, so can’t get on here much… Just had a wisdom tooth, very painfull so cant train too well… email when u can, wanna see if u are goin to John Leong’s tournament.
CLF Tactics… Nice Post
Let me plug something for Gene Ching and me… lol
Next KF Mag will have an article I wrote with relation to this topic a bit…
But one thing I believe is important not mentioned yet is timing… Wheter you close the gap or slip out on an attack, when your opponent is off balance or disadvantaged all your techniques regardless will have a better chance of working.
In the LKH family we enjoy sweeping to set up alot of straight punches and sow choys, and alot of side stepping too.
From the sound of it, it seems to me that you assume a real fight would last pretty long. Long range techniques work just as effective in a shorter range, and I doubt that you will open your self up as much as you do when training forms. You mention gwa cum, which is a technique we very successfully use in San Da (just ending up in a fist instead op a palm). Doing it at the right and realistic speed, you wont open yourself up, instead you cover more up than anything else. I saw a san da video from china, where one of the fighters kept keeping his distance with a sow choy like strike (I say sow choy like to avoid politics). He was able to use it successful every time, which kept his opponent away from him.
I favour ending all fighting set up with some kind of sweep, throw or takedowm. Probably personal preference more than anything else, but my CLF teaches me allot of takedowns and sweeps, which if trained regularly, could be pretty effective and just about ‘ unstoppable’ in a real situation.
I don’t buy the whole “ CLF is a long range fighting style” thing, as we can change every move to suit a shorter range. A gwa chow could become a temporary hold (as used in northern mantis) or bridge which could be followed up with any other strike. Then there are grappling as we discussed before, which stems directly from certain principles we have in our style or any other style.
If CLF (or any other kung fu style for that matter) is trained correctly, you should have a ‘ complete’ martial art (if you like to use the words of all the jkd players around), which follows all ranges of fighting.
I enjoy CLF, and for me this style is pretty effective. I have had to use CLF inside the ring, and outside, and I am 100% sure that if I keep training delinquently and correctly, I can be the best fighter I want to be. The style has everything I need, I just need to apply my knowledge and polish my skills. Having said that, I also realise that this is easier said than done, especially in today’s world where it is almost impossible to even steel a few spare minutes extra to train. Finding a challenging training partner is even more difficult.
Thanks for everyone’s replies. Sow Choy and Eddie your comments regarding timing and technique are appreciated.
Eddie: I don’t assume that a real fight would last long. To the contrary, the longer the fight lasts the greater the likliehood that you will experience some injury or worse.
My original concern had to do with the structural speed of the CLF system as evidenced in the extent of movement in some techniques. However your comment Eddie regarding the movements being executed faster in combat than in the forms seems plausible. Also, the fact that you’re impacting a solid target as opposed to swinging in the air means that the range of execution will be smaller than in the forms…so in some ways this addresses my initial concern.
You know it does kinda p*ss me off that people seem to think we’re morons who just swing our arms at people. CLF is southern shaolin kung fu, therefore principles such as bridgeing and sticking are core concepts in the application of CLF.
I’m still somewhat curious as to how CLF techniques leave you exposed, as they’re either delivered side on or bring your other hand immediately into play. Also half the movements contain a grab or stick with Chin Na before you’ve hit them.
I do not think that CLF people are morons who just swing our arms at people as you suggested Ben. What I meant was that the long tehniques of CLF do leave you sometimes open if you want to do them in full strength.
Say you do a kwa-cheung ng choy- pek choy. If you want to do the pek as a KO finishing move, you will propably want to sink down your sei ping ma and do the technique with a long hand(generating more power). In order to do this, you want to take your kwa -hand all the way back. Right? And this DOES leave you open! And before anybode says it, it is of course possible to do the same combo with closed guard and close range. Then it will not be as strong, thou. This, IMO is already a fighting tactics issue. You can’t use all techiques against all opponents, but against some this kind of fighting would be really effective.
And also, as long range techinques are the first techinques learned(at least where I learned CLF), people tend to associate CLF with those. A higher level student of course learns to use short range and grappling.
I liked Ed’s post as it hit on a very important princliple in all martial arts: following through with a technique. You don’t hit a target on an opponent; you hit through the target on the opponent. If done properly you will generate more power and not leave yourself open. If you miss, then your training should provide for the flow of one technique to the next. Good thread (and I haven’t even learned any CLF!)
I think many people have only seen CLF in books and have seen some of the postures where the arms are extended give the impression of being open, I saw it like that also before I began my training.
And people who use the same stances when fighting that they do in form, in my opinion are going to find it very difficult to fight fast and efficient. When we fight we are very comfortable and move quick and with ease. The forms help us create good habit in posture, not over extending or leaning, and how to use both hands to help generate speed and power.
So when we fight we keep a more narrow stance and do not think, just react. So when doing these swinging techniques, they are usually used closing the gap or in a bridge, but either they are done more natural or compact or to break through someones guard.
Again, having good timing is important. There are many ways to close or open the gap.
I have seen one school who fought with lower stances and swing punches, and I felt bad for these guys, to me they clearly did not understand timing and how to be natural when fighting. I think they were from some lama pai school, and other lama pai fighters I have seen are pretty good, similar to CLF.
On a related note, I think the height of stances are important while fighting. I’m not saying you try to fight and move out of very low stances, but when pulling or throwing someone the sinking of the weight is important for leverage and power generation. To that end you do fight from the stances you train in.
I agree, when striking we keep a more comfortable stance, when grappling a bit for throws we sometimes sink, but our stance and footwork must be very versatile.
A saying in our style about our footwork: a snake sliding and a mouse running. Refers to a particular combo in a form but also that our feet must be quick and change
welcome back to the forum . we 'd miss your knowldge here .
i wanna ask you if you know the name of that saying in cantonese .
ps : i’d was trainning and ( sharing a room ) with sifu paul in sao paulo , brasil . the last mounth . was a great time with him and the lee koon hung kung fu brasil people , cesar and selma .
i¡ll hope we can meet some day .
Welcome to our family, everyone is impressed with your ability and hope to meet you soon.
I may be in Brasil in November this year, maybe do a seminar too.
The saying for “Snake Sliding & Mouse Running” in Cantonese i was taught like this “Seh Hang Shee Bo” which literally means Snake Walk Mouse Stance.
With these kind of things I am not the most knowledgable, I don’t really get into it much, I like to train more then talk about lineage history blah blah blah…
I had some wisdom teeth pulled, so i have been here for a few days, but once I am healed, I won’t have much time again…
i’m trying to get to seattle but i work on the docks of sf and oakland, and work is busy. i have been working with my students in kansas who are helping spread our system.
i am planning out my dvd, and i will be doing a book and the dvd version of the book which i have almost completed (the book).
it is on the american hung sing kwoon.
