Chi Sao applications Video

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Anthony you train with grados?! I saw that crazy music video of his. Talk about self promotion! I like that website though. He has some good videos as well. Are you guys of the WSL lineage?

Your training method and mine (based on what I see in the videos) are a lot alike. I however learned wing chun from my step brother who learned in hawaii years ago. (Under Robert Yeung if Im not mistaken). I stopped training with him back before 2000. He doesnt teach/train any longer I have not finished wing chun as of yet and am currently in limbo as to what lineage I will choose to finish my training. But I’ve been practicing what I do know since I was in my teens. Im 27 right now. So although I don’t have the entire system in hand…I’ve got about a little more then half I suppose. SLT, CK, and the dummy form. No weapons or BG set. The only places in town here are LT under Will Parker (his personality could use a major overhaul but rumor has it he is decent) and then there is a new school here from Emin Boztepe’s new system EBMAS. The sifu’s are unknown’s and I havent met with them yet. Personally I think both of their systems use the chain punch waaaaaaay too much, and it seems that a lot of the emphasis is on strength, and the techniques look very sloppy. But alas…I’ve not much choice. I like Fong’s system very very much and would choose that if geographically possible. Another lineage I feel is right on the money is Gary Lam’s, which I believe to be WSL. I would choose those as the better wing chun lineages in my opinion.

As far as the vid is concerned I can see what you’re saying as well…but if Fong endorses Ed, then Ed has the skills to back up anything he does whether that particular video shows it or not. Like I said, I’ve seen him do some good stuff, and his knowledge of the art is superb. Also remember, Fong is a master of wing chun, and Ed is a sifu under his lineage.

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I am not a big fan of lineages or chain punching. lol

I think what makes Sifu Grados unique is that he has actually used his wingchun. On a daily basis at times.
Many of these masters are great but never use it. They don’t live that type of life style. Claiming to be above it and all.

I think that lack of experiance leads to games of tag. All speed, some tech, no power.

My shaolin training influences my perception of wing chun. In a unique way. Many wingchunners forget about power from the ground. That pivot. Grados certainly has it. His power is incredible. He let me hold a bag while he did short chain punches. My chest still hurts.

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Originally posted by mortal
Just because we disagree doesn’t make me ignorant. I am allowed to have and share my opinion.
Anthony,
Your opinion is of course allowed, and in fact very welcome. I think there’s a lot of truth in your observations.

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mortal sez:

Master Fong is a true master. I don’t think the other guy should use that title.

((Title? Rank? This isnt karate. Ed is sifu to his students-not to you.
Similarly your sifu is not ed’s sifu. Similarlya master of Baliol college is a master to his students- not necessarily a master of Old Greek. Different meanings of terms.))

You think he isn’t stiff?
((Stiffness is comparative and is also activity specific…stiffness compared to whom?))

Who is the ignorant one here?

((Again - ignorant (as above-“the ignorant one”. Ignorance involves a continuum,and in different degrees welcome to the common continuum. I understand who your sifu is. He has boxed before
and has fairly fast hands. That does not automatically involve
wing chun motions. He tooka couple of Fong seminars but is bascally on his own promotion. Good luck to him and yourself))

black and blue
Bone bruised every class

((Happens to a hsing I rudapest in Budapest))

I think the point about body connection was a valid one,

(((((The hsing I novice;s armchair POV!!))

and I’d like to see less of the super-quick attacks which, at the point of contact are a little too flicky… but its a demo and demos never have everything you want to see.

((Just a demo…)))

I quite like some of the other clips on the site - I remember seeing some in the past of Augustine Fong, and liked them alot.

Also, the clip’s title was Chi Sau Applications, which was a little bit misleading.

((A label is a label…a rose is a rose is a rose))

But I respect anyone who puts up some clips in a public forum - there will always be people like me who critique it.

((B&B-comes out of the blue with CMA goulash with paprika
and possibly pop corn))

Joy, if you’re reading, I don’t think you responded to the question I asked about whether you’d be able to put up some video footage of your Chi Sau and how it offers some of what sparring offers - there is no way at all I can make the seminar you spoke of (just too far to fly), but I’d like to see in action some of the things you have discussed.

((Not making it to the seminar. The loss is yours unfortunately.
Master Fong some years ago gave a seminar somwhere in England.
Back to sparring- I am no stranger to sparring. Fun- But not the best way to understand and progress in the details of the art.
Back to chi sao—I dont have the slightest idea on how to put footage on the net.
But as I repeatedlydly mention chi sao is rich in its variety. Of course the fundamentaks are there in single, double and lop sa0.
But it progreses into all sorts of combinations of control, attacks and defenses- with varying timing and varying footwork-plus lut sao(not WT lat sao)- with its gap closing and creating without going bouncy bounce.
But chi sao isnt fighting and neither is sparring.
Lots of things happen in kwoons which are outside of the materials in net videos))

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Originally posted by Vajramusti
((Just a demo…)))
And that’s the problem… the only wing chun that is actually demonstrated seems to be the form of demos or practice where it is “OK” to be flicky because it’s “just a demo”. There doesn’t seem to be any actual evidence of anyone actually using it to finish against another halfway skilled opponent. The closest I have ever seen anyone really using WC in this respect was Vitor Belfort’s “straight blast” against Silva.

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van to answer your question

There’s a difference between stepping back passively or actively. If you watch the 1st part of the video, where Ken randomly did acts, my step back was not initiated by me, but depending on the amount of force that was given. I adjusted to it with bracing footwork. Now keep in mind this is a demonstration. In actual real application, I would never let the motion come in, once Ken was in range I would move right in and jam the motion. But jamming motions in demostrations are boring and dont allow flow of motions, which is not good eye candy for the public

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Regarding Only a demo

If you’ve ever done a demo, then you have to understand what people are capable of understanding. And, from my experience the general public and even regular practioners of martial arts have no understanding of Wing Chun demonstrations. When you do demonstrations you have to bend rules that you necessarily wouldn’t do in Wing Chun. Otherwise things will look boring and plain.

A properly displayed wing chun punch, has nothing visually appealing to it. Because the power is not left in the arm, but transfered over to the opponent. But in a demo, you need to show off power as well as slowing down motions to allow audience members to see what you’ve done.

I could always do a demonstration where I just go to every single audience member and just one inch punch them for real… or I could tell you of the countless demosntrations done that night that were slow and boring tai chi forms that lasted for about 5 minutes each. Frankly I feel its quite boring to do forms for demonstration, unless they are wu shu forms that have allot of action and jumping in the forms. Do you think people would’ve prefered me doing Siu Lim Tao for 20 minutes?

Anyway, these are just my thoughts

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My complaint isn’t about demos, per se. It is about the fact that everything WC-related that can be seen is all demos and drills. Where is the evidence of real fighting being done using WC?

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Apples and oranges

My complaint isn’t about demos, per se. It is about the fact that everything WC-related that can be seen is all demos and drills. Where is the evidence of real fighting being done using WC?

Then your talking about 2 different things… You see wing chun applied in a real fight.. your talking about 1 or 2 attacks, and then the fight is over. Done correctly, you really won’t see much of anything. A demonstration helps display some of the skill developed from the wing chun training. Thus, your talking about 2 different things.

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Just watched the video.

Lame.

No insult intended - don’t know who these people are…

but in all honesty - it was lame.

See mortal’s point about no power - but there’s a lot more to the “problems” involved with this than just a power failure. It’s just one more example of how chi sao - of and by itself - doesn’t prove anything. (Aside from the technical flaws and the limited amount of technique within the chi sao and the other moves contained within the demo displayed here).

Chi sao is a very limited training device…of and by itself.

Can’t wait for the day when all-wing chun fighting tournaments (hard contact sparring with very thin gloves, headgear, etc.) start to pop up around the country…and other countries, for that matter.

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I see your point Ed. Jong pretty much explained it another way as well. In a demonstration, you’re going for mass appeal to the general public, wherein most have ADD and will only pay attention for a small period of time and to only things that are visually appealing.

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Bruce Lee’s movie stuff was also very different from his real fighting stuff. In one scene he re did the scene 200 times before he was happy with the look of it.

Ray

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Joy says: “The hsing I novice;s armchair POV!!”

To the first part, yes - truly am a XingYi novice. To the second? Like the tag says, bone-bruised :slight_smile: … nothing armchair about it. Chairs are comfortable and the classes are not, though like with chairs I spend a fair amount of time on my a.rse.

“B&B-comes out of the blue with CMA goulash with paprika and possibly pop corn”

No goulash at present as there’s a paprika ban (nasty fungus found in imported paprika from South America), so we are all suffering and yearning for the red stuff!

Popcorn? If there’s anything that truly annoys me regarding your posts Joy, its the fact you view all comment that differs from your own to be either

a) Absolutely wrong
b) The voice of inexperience

No popcorn munching here as my continued interest in WCK is the result of my continued sparring against it. And each time I do so the experience grows and, I hope, I learn something new. You don’t, in short, need 30-odd years in the art to be able to see if someone is connected and notice if what they are doing will offer good power delivery :rolleyes:

Regaring the seminar, yes - it is a shame as I’ve yet to meet someone good from your line (there was a guy in the UK who I met but he has, in the past year or so, removed any Fong banners etc from his site - so perhaps he was not accredited).

Perhaps one of your students has a camcorder and can help you with getting some material on the net? Despite your popcorn comments, I WOULD like to SEE what you’re talking about in your description of Chi Sau. From Ed’s video I see nothing in it that relates to the things you talk about, but you’ve studied longer under Augustine Fong… so who knows.

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Comments on B and B’s post:

Joy says: “The hsing I novice;s armchair POV!!”

To the first part, yes - truly am a XingYi novice. To the second? Like the tag says, bone-bruised … nothing armchair about it.
((The arm chair comment referred to your current WC POV))

“B&B-comes out of the blue with CMA goulash with paprika and possibly pop corn”

No goulash at present as there’s a paprika ban (nasty fungus found in imported paprika from South America), so we are all suffering and yearning for the red stuff!
((Sorry to hear that))

Popcorn? If there’s anything that truly annoys me regarding your posts Joy, its the fact you view all comment that differs from your own to be either

a) Absolutely wrong
b) The voice of inexperience

((I dont control your annoyance. AndI am not running for election. "“All comments that differs”…
not true. I spent a professional lifetime weighing, comparing and contrasting entirely different ideas. But partly correct in that in any field all opinions are not coequal. The right to an opinion is
sacred and equal- but one can point out it’s wrong if it is. I always read carefully(listening) before commenting. You would be surprised how many opinions of mine I have changed in wing chun and other subjects after listening carefully. I hunt for the essence of a subect rather than clinging to “my” opinions.

But levels of knowledge, differences in POV, dogma, prejudice can
cloud opinions and observation.
In mortal’s case my initial hunch proved correct- he was looking at the view via standards of “athleticism”.His wing chun training is froma sifu who is quite athletic and an ex boxer. His wing chun foundations are not that strong- though athletic ability and conditioning is nothing to sniff at- but not enough to develop in the art.
Ed’s video was justa very short demo clip on variations from rolling- not at full speed or power but showing line openings and closing. Take it out fo the narrow brief demo context-you have a different conversation.))

You don’t, in short, need 30-odd years in the art to be able to see if someone is connected and notice if what they are doing will offer good power delivery

((No you dont. But the reverse of that proposition is not necessarily true either.Good power delivery in wing chun is not very camera friendly.))

Regaring the seminar, yes - it is a shame as I’ve yet to meet someone good from your line (there was a guy in the UK who I met but he has, in the past year or so, removed any Fong banners etc from his site - so perhaps he was not accredited).

((I dont speak for Master Fong. He speaks for himself. His list of certified and recognized students is on his website.He does not open chainstores.The person you refer to is not on it. Neither is Grados nor Williams.
Master Fong’s main work is at his headquarters in Tucson and many things that happen there are not on videos or in books and manuals. He has kept on developing lots of applications of wing chun based ona good undertstanding of wing chun principles. He encourages individuality based on fundamentals as his sifu and sigung did… each with considerable time spent learning first. Best way to find out what he does is to come to Tucson for one of the seminars.)).

Perhaps one of your students has a camcorder and can help you with getting some material on the net? Despite your popcorn comments, I WOULD like to SEE what you’re talking about in your description of Chi Sau.

(I am not much interested in a media presence except for a basic website. Wing chun is not my rice bowl- but my love.Good wing chun really should be seen and felt first hand. Fairly serious obligations prevent me from visiting Europe- havent been there in decades. Perhaps when my obligations lighten and we meet in travels- i will be happy to show you some of the things that you refer to. Nota general invitation to all- but given your curiosity- if you pass thru Phoenix - I will be happy to spend qualitywing chun time.

Things like closing the gap, fighting other stylists, actual self defence capacity enhancement are all serious subjects—but boxing type of sparring is far from the only method of learning wing chun. You can always learn from various experiences—but for it to be wing chun- one has to do wing chun-rather than making it up.
I do stay on the list- partly for fun but more importantly to geta sense of other approaches to wing chun and I learn whenever I can. I am compulsive about learning more about the art every day even though much of the art is being fragmented..Not proofread- gotta run taxi for someone in need of transportation.))

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“Fairly serious obligations prevent me from visiting Europe- havent been there in decades. Perhaps when my obligations lighten and we meet in travels- i will be happy to show you some of the things that you refer to. Nota general invitation to all- but given your curiosity- if you pass thru Phoenix - I will be happy to spend qualitywing chun time.”

Well, that is a kind offer for sure. Thank you. If ever there is a chance of my being out your way I will email before hand and, yes, it would be good to meet and play through some of these ideas. Don’t know if you have any knowledge of XingYi, but feel free to tear mine apart when you see it.

Regarding Europe, I return the offer. If ever you are coming out this way (Hungary), email me and we can meet up. I know a variety of MA folk here (WCK, Mantis, Chen Taiji, Thai boxing etc etc) if you want to meet others, and hey, I can even take you to Hungary’s Istvan “KoKo” Kovacs’ (the boxer) restaurant. Perhaps meet the chap.

A shame about the lack of video options - as it would at least be a quick viewing option.

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Reply to B and B:

Well, that is a kind offer for sure. Thank you. If ever there is a chance of my being out your way I will email before hand and, yes, it would be good to meet and play through some of these ideas.

((Good))

Don’t know if you have any knowledge of XingYi, but feel free to tear mine apart when you see it.

((I have a broad but serious interest in TCMA- so I have a non practitioners view from the outside.))

Regarding Europe, I return the offer. If ever you are coming out this way (Hungary), email me and we can meet up.

((One guy from Romania wanted me to certify him sight unseen
but I dont do that kind of thing. Have not been to Hungary- maybe some day))

I know a variety of MA folk here (WCK, Mantis, Chen Taiji, Thai boxing etc etc) if you want to meet others, and hey, I can even take you to Hungary’s Istvan “KoKo” Kovacs’ (the boxer) restaurant. Perhaps meet the chap.

(((Thanks-I have some exposure to really top flight Chen. Have travelled to Bangkok to see muat thai at its source. Respect southern mantis- afriend of mine is top flight in southern mantis.
The US often draws the best in different fields though some may escape the attention they deserve. good wishes))

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:slight_smile: I lived in Bangkok for a year and a half after finishing Uni… amazing place. I too watched a lot of Thai boxing and through a friend visited some very small schools to see how they trained. Brutal stuff.

Enjoyed seeing it, but hated seeing some of the older chaps who hungout there - badly hobbling around. There legs had taken too much punishment over the years.

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B and B:

Enjoyed seeing it, but hated seeing some of the older chaps who hungout there - badly hobbling around. There legs had taken too much punishment over the years.

((Exactly- seen the same))

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Re: Apples and oranges

Originally posted by edward
You see wing chun applied in a real fight.. your talking about 1 or 2 attacks, and then the fight is over. Done correctly, you really won’t see much of anything.
With all the WC practitioners around, you would think there might be a couple of videos floating around of a WC practitioner putting down a skilled opponenent with these “one or two attacks”.

40

Originally posted by edward
You see wing chun applied in a real fight.. your talking about 1 or 2 attacks, and then the fight is over. Done correctly, you really won’t see much of anything.

With all the WC practitioners around, you would think there might be a couple of videos floating around of a WC practitioner putting down a skilled opponenent with these “one or two attacks”.

He doesn’t speak for all of us. I know one or two punches doesn’t put anyone down. I punch myself in the head a couple of times before a fight just to get psyched. Again this seams to show a lack of true fighting experiance. All theory.