Sorry for my rapid, bad typing. “very bad for you” I meant to type…
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
REcall what i posted above folks
teh Animal systems are variations of the SAME PUNCH AND SAME KICK AND SAME BLOCK,just done with different approaches to the things i just mentioned. you sat karate moves,karate style,WELL WHERE IN THE HELL DID KARATE COME FROM? UHHH LET ME SEE UGHH IS IT CHINA? YES IT CAME FROM CHINA<<EVEN the history of japanese martial arts states this. SO this being true i would have to say that whatever you call a fighting system be it shaolin or karate it is ALL FROM THE SAME POT. nOwe as i keep saying about the shaolin forms. there are COMBAT FORMS and there are forms for show and there are forms that focus on internal and there are frms that focus on a particular style of movement. i just dont see how you do not think that our forms do not represent the principles of the animla styles.,THEY IN FACT DO. As far as REEmuls comment about taking a lifetime to master one particular style. i feel that this is A better topic for debate rather than the SD threads that put us in bitter defensive postures with you guys.
WE are not inept people and OH I NEVER STATED THAT GM SIN TELLS TALL TALES<<LETS GET THAT CLEAR>
and as for me saying above that i dont care if it is made up,that does not mean that i think that SD IS MADE UP…COME ON NOW GET OUT OF THE HOLLYWOOD MARTIAL ARTS MENTALITY PEOPLE,seriously now,this is not the KUNGFU series or TENNAGE MUTANT TURLTS OR LONE WOLF. Why are we SOO damn interested in the exact history and origin of anything? it is and will always be a mystery,we look into things more so than we should,and to tell you the truth guys most of us dont give a crap about the history anyway,WE ARE NOT INTO MARTIAL ARTS TO BE HISTORIANS NOW ARE WE? i do not state this to draw away from our history,but i tell you if i spent half as much time as i do here arguing the history rather than practicing, i would be a lot better off,the main purpose here is to make contacts with people and to establish kindredships with fellow martial artists AND I DONT WANT TO BE SUBJECTED TO ALL THIS EGO HISTORY MY ARTS BETTER THAN YOU ART OR YOUR ART SUCKS CRAP!!! MOnkey slap has talked with me and i am about to MEET ILLUSIONFIST TOMORROW IN ALBUQUERQUE<<<<MAYBE IF ALL OF YOU WOULD LISTEN TO THESE PEOple whom youtrustABOUT WHO I AM AND WHAT I Represent then maybe you would have a different attitude about me and what it is that I do,Most of you here are KIDS,and i dont say that to be demeaning,but i have 15 yrs on some of you and i KNOW MY STUFF,and i also have good ideas to share.
so with that in mind i will continue to communicate with you about things regarding this.
Many Respects,Willow Sword
Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.
oh and,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.
As I said before…
Being the ever-vigilant servant of the Forum, I have offered my services to mediate the bout to whatever guidelines the challengers request. I am in Dallas with plenty of vacation time to accommodate you. Look at my profile and email me if you have any further questions as who I am. I will be impartial and will make sure that no one gets seriously hurt… if thats your request. I will even bring a digital camera to record it if you like.
“If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary.”
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>People make up arts all the time, that’s how they get started, they don’t pop out of thin air. Even respectable sifu lie about lineage and such. Who cares?[/quote]
The difference is when someone make up their own art they name it. They don’t give it names of specific styles allready in existence. Sin The claims to have mastered every Shaolin(& quite a few non Shaolin) systems, and names specific styles like Chen Taiji, Hua Quan, Bak Mai, etc.
I think we all just keep repeating ourselves over, and over… 
Someone should just make a Shaolin-Do FAQ sheet with simple answears from Pro & Con SD people. Then everytime the topic comes up just post the link and say “look here!”
Where to begin…
I’ll try to keep this short…
Selling a lie to the public is fraud. If I sell you a used car that has 10K miles on it, but, in actuality, it had over 100K, I merely rolled back the odometer, that’s fraud.
Yes, it’s true people have been making up their own arts for centuries, but they give them a unique name. If I made up my own pseudo martial art, and decided to call it “Tai Chi-Do”, Tai Chi people would have every right to be indignant about it…just like Disney would have every right to sue me if I started my own fly-by-night internet company and adopted their name. Most MA are not copyrighted, so there is nothing anyone can legally do about it, but we’re talking morality here, what’s right and what’s wrong. Sin MAY not have broken any laws, but…
My knowledge of SD does extend beyone real player clips, but, I must thank them for those clips, because they lend so much credence to all of the anti-Shaolin-Do posts.
I’ve been to the Atlanta school(one of 'em at least) a couple of times, and have talked to numerous students over the years. I first visited there about 8 years ago and got the HARD SD sales pitch, the one where they tell you that not only is Shaolin-Do authentic Shaolin Kung Fu, it’s the sum total of ALL Shaolin Kung Fu, and, it even incorporates Daoist styles that have nothing to do with Shaolin.
The instructor was pretty buff, and quite quick, and I’m sure that he can defend himself…
The students lined up and began to go through their short katas, there were about a dozen of these, of which, about 3 of them my friend(at the time) who had a few years of Shotokan under his belt could reproduce on the spot, in front of the instructor who asked him, “do you have any prior training in Shaolin?”
This sales pitch also included the answer to my question, “Why the Japanese uniforms, why the Japanese nomenclature, why the nunchakus?”
The answer: “GM Sin The was born in Inonesia, when he first began training in Shaolin, there was a law prohibiting the open practice of Chinese martial arts, hence, his teacher adopted the Japanese uniforms and trappings to circumvent the law.”
The above is almost exactly what I was told…about three years ago, a student at that school relayed almost the same story to me, but minus the “law”, basically, it’s the same story you guys are now telling, I can’t help but wonder if three years from now, the story will change again…
I took Rad’s advice, and searched a few of the archives…I found these beauties courtesy of MonkeySlap. Any of you guys care to elaborate on this?
http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=123191102&m=3341983922
http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=238199028&m=2521983922
When I visited the Atlanta school 8 years ago, there was no mention whatsoever of teaching Liu Ho Pa Fa, but, now, as I understand it, they teach it?
This should be very easy to verify. If no one in SD knew LHPF 8 years ago, but they teach it now, who learned it? From Whom? When? These are questions everyone in SD should be asking. How come none of you guys ever raise an eyebrow when Sin, almost magically, reveals yet another style in his repetoir? A style that has nothing to do with Shaolin and was never taught in any Shaolin Temple.
The comment about the Tai Chi is spot on. The SD Tai Chi looks like the compulsory PRC version, a 20th century creation, available to anyone by video.
TWS has already said (more or less) that he doesn’t care if he’s being lied to…do you Rad?
I do.
I still do not think that anything I say will have any effect on you guys, but I do write this for the benefit of any newbie or lurker who may be considering embarking down this road…don’t say you weren’t warned.
You guys don’t know this Bak Mei form, OK, fine. Can you find me someone who does, and get them on this forum? We can have an open debate, we can find out why this form is devoid of any of the ging (that loosely translates to power for you SD guys) for which white eyebrow is famous. We can discuss the history of this form, the conflicting posture, everything. We don’t have to wait til November, we can do this right now. Should be interesting.
SD will continue to thrive despite my efforts, so you students of Sin’s can take comfort in that. The idea that you can go down to your local strip mall, throw down $50/month, and learn ancient secrets of Temple Boxing and become a black belt in two years(at the Atlanta branch, this is how long it takes to “master” Shaolin Kung Fu), appeals to many. No one wants to hear that real Kung Fu takes many, many years of diligent practice. No! I want to be a black belt in two years, and I want to have my own franchise school in five!
Here’s some vids of PRC Taiji just so everyone knows what it looks like: http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm
master/beginner
billy_pilgrim, In response to:
The idea that you can go down to your local strip mall, throw down $50/month, and learn ancient secrets of Temple Boxing and become a black belt in two years(at the Atlanta branch, this is how long it takes to “master” Shaolin Kung Fu), appeals to many. No one wants to hear that real Kung Fu takes many, many years of diligent practice. No! I want to be a black belt in two years, and I want to have my own franchise school in five!
I am a Shaolin-do student training in Lexington under Senior Master Bill Leonard, who has 30+ yrs experience w/ Grandmaster The’. I’ve been training for a little over a year, and it has been heavily stressed that when you obtain your black belt (min. 2.5 years in Lexington) you are then a beginner, not a master. The training up to becoming a black belt is preparation for taking a large step up in the amount of things you can learn. Once you reach black belt you are allowed to learn anything, but up to that point you must follow a set path. A master is a 5th degree black belt, which takes ~16-17 years I think (seems like a long time to me.) I hope this clears up any misunderstandings about what our belt rankings symbolize.
Russ
Mastery
Mastery in Shaolin kungfu takes a lot longer than that russ.
The debate over mastery is questionable. First we have to define mastery.
Let’s get back to the core questions…
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Mastery in any style takes different amounts of time for different people.
cxxx:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity
This flamethrowing macho BS thread SUCKS.
Russ,
OK, I don’t want to get bogged down in the minutiae of this whole “mastery” thing…I am only quoting the Atlanta branch. What you seem to be saying is that, a black belt in SD is quantitatively, almost worthless. I mean, if it’s reflective of showing up once or twice a week for an hour at a time for 2-2.5 years, then it really means next to nothing. Reemul says the same thing, and he gets challenged to fights.
Interesting…
Does anyone want to address the cogent questions? This BM form? The LHPF material? The History? SD claims a monastic origin for their material, but give very vague historical info about unnamed temple(s) in Omei, Wutang…what were the names of these monasteries, again? What about the Bagua SD teaches…Bagua is an entire system, but at SD, it’s just a couple of forms in a list of 900??? How did this happen?
How come the SD material grows almost yearly?
And this garbage…
Courtesy the fine folks of the Atl branch again:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>
Classical Pa Kua Chang : 7 Months The 8 Changes of the Palm is a internal arts system that combines an ancient form of Taoist Chi Kung Training known as “Walking the Circle” with the Buddhist tradition of using animal inspired movements for self defense. The art originated on Wu Tang Mountain and until the late Ching Dynasty (1644-1912), the art was virtually unknown outside of Shao-Lin Temple. Students will learn the “Original Form” of Pa Kua Chang and some fighting techniques
[/quote]
I really love the line about this being the “original” Pa Kua form. Notice that they’ve learned over the years to answer the question, “how come this doesn’t look like any other Pa Kua?” before it’s even asked.
Which Shaolin Temple was this original Pa Kua taught at?
How come when I visited there 8 years ago, I was given a brochure, and under “internal”, the ONLY things listed were:
Tai Chi
Pa Kua
Hsing-I
go to the website and look at the material now…all this added in just 8 years, where did this other stuff come from?
Huang,
Aren’t you the same one that was lecturing me a few months ago about how I shouldn’t be telling people that Jim Lacy is a fraud? Yeah, it was you, the pious tone is unmistakeable.
I guess I’m not supposed to tell people that they MAY be being lied to. I guess I’m not supposed to say one word in protest as good money is thrown away on this stuff. I’m supposed to sit here in silence while professional conmen bilk the public of their hard earned dollars…would you mind explaining to me where the morality in this is?
When SD tells people that they are the “most comprehensive MA in the world!”, it’s insulting. When SD tells their students, that their versions of material are the “original or real” thing, and that other white eyebrow that’s being taught is modern wushu, it’s even more insulting. When systems like Bak Mei and LHPF have their names sullied when people just carelessly attached them to an ever-growin collection of forms, it’s insulting. Why are you not offended again? You just don’t care?
Yeah, the SD guys are nice people, and I don’t want to make enemies out of anyone, but I’m supposed to not say anything simply because of this?
If you think any of my posts were filled with machismo, or were self-serving in any way, please, give me an example.
Thanks.
This is a public service announcement
Mastery defined by the Shaolin monastary before the masters left(1928) was defined as “Life devotion”, achieving mastery in your 20’s or 30’s was unheard of. Asuming you started as a young child. As for other systems def. of mastery, we’re not talking about other systems.
recap:
If you had not devoted the majority of your life to training in one Shaolin system, you were not considered a master.
So for all the newbies looking for a Shaolin school to train at, here is a Tip. If they claim to have mastered more than one system they are not masters, however it is possible that they may still be good practioners. You would have to judge for yourself. Also if it sounds like a sales pitch, head for the door.
Well?
We are still all waiting for the explanations about the ever growing list of forms.
Why does the Spam not look like beef?
Inquireing minds want to know.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
I also want to know what other evidence there must be about SD and its curriculum in China and Indonesia.
I know people in the Indo and Malay martial arts community as well. I’m going to ask around…
Boy - I’d love to see the ‘original’ Pa Kua that was taught in the Shaolin temple. Anybody want to buy a bridge? It’s only been used once…
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
First off, the SD folks don’t HAVE to defend themselves…so it would be appreciated if you guys could ask one question at a time. I’ve not been on the boards the past few days and to come back and have “the bandwagon” launching so many questions is a bit overwhelming.
I’m short of time right now, so I’ll answer what I can in the few minutes I have. TWS or russ can pick up what they can if they want.
Yes, I would care if anyone could PROVE I’m being lied to. As things stand, I’ve met the SD folks including GM Sin and I don’t feel I’ve ever been lied to. I think GM Sin has passed on the history of our system as he learned it. The challenge for someone to step forward with something concrete to disprove any of the history has stood for quite a while. We can’t prove it, and you can’t disprove it. More’s the pity.
Here’s a major problem some have with GM Sin. He’s said to have mastered 900+ forms. This is the source of the new material SD students are constantly exposed to.
TWS has studied a few internal systems in SD. Why not ask him to compare what he knows with others? As long as it’s done with respect and an honest attempt to exchange knowledge, I’m willing to bet he’d be happy to do so. It’d be a lot easier than us finding someone to come to this forum and spend the RIDICULOUS amount of time that we do here. 
Billy, reemul said more than “some SD blackbelts can’t fight”. He implied that NO ONE in SD could fight and bragged of beating SD students. I think that anyone that’s read reemul’s posts know why TWS challenged him.
DOH. Time’s up…more later.
-Radhnoti
To Radhnoti
You and Willow need hooked on phonics, cuz you guys got some serious reading comprehension problems. As far as SD putting out good fighters my opinion was formed from me shamelessly beating them so easily and from a friend who also recieved no comp from so called SD instructors. TWS challenged me, cuz I know how to push his buttons. I’m sure it’s possible SD may have a few people who can fight, no thanks to SD (naturals).
I have also said time and time again that whether they can fight is not an issue with me, it is everything else that has been stated over and over.
Seeing as you have nothing new to add as usual, I will dismiss you now, Be gone! hahaha