Can't we all Just get along?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

russ

Actually, I’m just trying to get a rise out of the TWS. The SD BB is a friend of mine so I don’t want to drag his name out in the open but it happened about 2 years ago and was accidental. Really, I have several friends who are SD black belts (most under Sin The a couple under his brother) and I’ve got nothing agianst them I just don’t like SD because the art doesn’t seem very effective as they’ve all heard me say with frequency. All the guys I’ve seen from SD with any fighting ability (Bill Leonard for example) would’ve been pretty good fighters martial arts or not.

The problem with #10 is that it like many SD moves assumes your opponent is standing still or fights like a karate point fighter. When you leave the ground it’s a simple matter for some one who trains in mobile footwork to get off center and behind you waiting for your exposed back. What really works best is a Wing Chun front kick (or well maybe any type of front kick)because in the position you hold your hand that blocks the ribs there is virtually no resistance to a kick and if you try to be real tense like many SD people I’ve seen you’ll at least get your hand broken. The dangerous thing I see is that the opponent doesn’t really have to kick very hard just have good structure & the momentum of the Shaolin Do practioner provides all the force you need. If I were a SD practioner I wouldn’t use that technique at all because it leaves you vulnerable on so many fronts. Also, you guys like to stand sideways so much it’s easier to take you to the ground than it is a Wing Chun or Muay Thai guy or boxer even.

For those that wonder this technique begins with the SD person facing the opponent side on (all the sparring techs. do I think) leaping into the air (up & towards the opponent), you raise the front arm up (elbow pointing up) so that you can come down with a karate chop and hold the back hand accross your stomach so you can use that hand to block the ribs you leave exposed. You also raise the leg closest to the opponet (bent at the knee) so that you land on one foot. One of the SDers can probably describe it better.

“To the extreme!”
–Poochie

22

Thanks for the info, BKH

I agree that some of the best fighters in our school (especially Bill Leonard) would be great fighters without martial arts training.

I’ve never used ST #10 while sparring (haven’t really thought about using it) and probably never will. Some of the things we learn are more applicable than other things. If anybody does it to me, though, I’ll use your counter attack.

Russ

23

The reason for standing sideways

SD = Karate

24

This obsession with SD has got to end. People critisize something when they have limited knowledge on it. I have seen top fighters in many arts and crappy fighters from ones that turn out champions. I fought one guy in TKD who kiched my shoulder out in one shot.

If you feel that the style has no value, go down and take classes for a couple of months, find out what the concepts are about. The BB that come out may be poor due to a poor instructor, or just poor BB’s.

25

If someone wants to argue that Shaolin-Do is an effective fighting art, then I guess fighting would be the only way to settle the argument. But very few of the arguments against Shaolin-Do (that I’ve read), focus on this aspect. Most people’s problems with SD (myself included) hinge around the simple fact that, effective or not, it simply isn’t what it’s presented to be.
You’ve got Bak Mei forms which aren’t Bak Mei, you’ve got 7* mantis forms which aren’t 7* mantis, and, the explanations for all of these discrepancies are that SD students are learning the “real” thing, no one else got the good stuff. And, yes, to answer your question, I have been told this in the past by wide-eyed SD practicioners, who, somehow, manage to keep a straight face the entire time.
The Bak Mei form presented on the Atlanta school website is just one in a loooong line of examples. Absolutely none of the ging for which white eyebrow is famous, none of the easily recognizable posture used in Bak Mei, Southern Mantis, Lung Ying and other systems. A very jerky, mechanical, dare I say…Karate look to it??? And yet, why should this surprise anyone? I’ve heard that Sin used to call what he taught “karate” a few decades ago, you have these ridiculous “Short Katas” which are IDENTICAL to some Shotokan katas, you have Japanese nomenclature and Japanese trappings, and you play with nunchakus, but everytime someone tells an SD student that they’re studying Karate they throw fits, “no I’m not! Didn’t you read the sign out front, it clearly says ‘Shaolin!’”
Sin’s own brother openly calls him a liar, but apparently that doesn’t carry much weight…
I mean, seriously, why do WE even bother? If someone walks into a Shaolin-Do school and puts on a Japanese Gi, learns Japanese katas with Japanese names, plays with Japanese weapons, and STILL thinks that they’re studying a Chinese Martial art…do you honesty think anything you, I, or a member of Sin’s own family says about the guy will have any effect?

26

This has all been addressed before, anyone who wants to know the reason for the Japanese flavor can check the old threads. Anyone who wants the lowdown on the differences AND similarities between the The’ brothers can check the old threads. Anyone who wants to look into my personal involvement in Japanese karate and how I think SD measures up can check the old threads.
Anyone who wants to see how successful billy_pilgrim and the rest of “the bandwagon” is at “revealing the truth” about SD can check the old threads. Let’s face it, there’s really not much to say until November rolls around.

-Radhnoti

27

I could care less what happens in Nov. TWS MAY in fact be a better fighter than this reemul guy, so what? I never said SD wasn’t or couldn’t be effective…
You’re beating your chest about the fact that no one has convinced you to repent of your Shaolin-Do ways, maybe you mistake some of my posts for prosletyzing, but I conceeded on the first that any and all attempts to convince you that you weren’t learning Shaolin Kung Fu would fail…this ain’t exactly something for you to be proud of, in my humble opinion.

I mean, we have a guy, who says he “mastered” 900 forms in 10 years, some of which grant immortality to the practicioner (funny that, he seems to be aging like the rest of the populace).
We have Japanese weapons…when did they get integrated into Shaolin again? And all of the other Japanese trappings, in fact, we have the man himself who called what he taught Karate, then decided it may be more lucrative to use the name Shaolin. We have the fact that to the vast majority of people who practice CMA’s, SD doesn’t look like anything they do, but, despite all this, you’re convinced, OK, fine, I won’t attempt to argue on that front, however…
I WILL continue to argue that that Bak Mei form most definitely is not Bak Mei, and I submit that it does not adhere to any of the principles of anything else attributed to the White Eyebrow monk, and, if you’re silence is any indication, maybe I’ve won that argument. I also submit that I could be wrong, which seems to be a position none of you SD peeps is willing to adopt…If you would like to debate the veracity of the form in question, please just let me know…
I know you believe that I have some kind of self-serving agenda here, well, would you please let me in on what that may be, cause I’m at a loss…believe it or not, I’m not trying to be the bad guy.

Take Care.

28

To billy_pilgrim

Are you or your instructor familiar with the late
Master Lo from San Francisco?

29

Ok…I said I wasn’t going to go over the same ol’ stuff, but you asked a legit question and I’ve always done my best (as a student with a little UNDER a year in SD) to answer. Grandmaster Ie was forced out of China and fled with many Chinese immigrants to Indonesia. In Indonesia the Chinese were subjected to hatred and discrimination. To cloak the origin of the style Grandmaster Ie adopted MANY Japanese practices. I’d list them…but I’ve done it before and if you’re actually interested you can go do a search on Shaolin-do on this forum.
The word karate. Again I’ve covered this topic, a search might be in order again, but here’s the gist. Grandmaster Sin started teaching in KY in the early 70’s. Explaining what he was teaching was difficult enough. Kung Fu had not yet experienced it’s “boom”, and for simplicity’s sake he allowed folks to classify his art as “karate”. He and his upper level students STILL don’t care how SD is classified. When pressed to classify they seem to prefer the Mandarin Wu kung or Ch’uan-fa.
Aging…the guy is almost SIXTY. Have you seen him?!? He may not be immortal, but he is CERTAINLY healthy for a man of his age.
TWS spoke about the similarities SD students find to our forms in villages AROUND the temple.
I don’t know the Bak Mei form, nor have I seen it. I’ll have to file it away with the Tai Chi 24 form as something to learn for comparisons sake someday.
I don’t “beat my chest”…at least I never felt I was doing so. I do my best to give MY perspective of something I respect and enjoy. Most that attack SD have never met a student, never seen a SD form in person and just pick up from what they’ve heard others say. I don’t think you’re a bad person, just a person with no first hand experience with SD or a different perspective than my own. However, I do think SOME folks attack SD in an attempt to fit in or draw praise on this and other forums.

-Radhnoti

30

It’s not Bak Mei, It’s not Chen Taiji, It’s not Yang Taiji, It’s not Shaolin - what is it?

Oh yeah, it’s the ‘one true style’, the rest of us are doing ‘wushu’.

I think we all to go read eric hofflers ‘true beleiver’ again. No one wants to admit that they bought into a lie.

Rahdnoti, I actually can buy the aurgument about using Japanese terminology. This is actually common practice with some Dutch-Indo Kun Tao players who had to deal with Japanese stylists running the Dutch martial arts oversight groups.

However, it is the material you are doing that does not match what you call it. You can say we are all modern wushu players, but that just demonstrates your ignorance.

Doesn’t it bother you that NO ONE outside of your own group buys into this story? The only other group I have EVER seen treated like this is the Chung Moo Doe people. But I don’t think you guys are as goofy as them. Just misguided.

I can’t wait until you guys add Shuai Chiao to your list…

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

31

:confused:
I don’t recall judging anyone or anything MonkeySlap Too. How 'bout you? :slight_smile:
My skill level is far from sufficient to pass judgement on anyone, especially someone from another style. And frankly, it never ceases to amaze me that so many on this forum decide to attempt to judge shaolin-do forms via realplayer online videos. I don’t know a lot about other CMA styles, but isn’t it conceivable that something that was taught at the temple evolved in one direction for us and another for you? Sure it’s possible. What isn’t in the right circumstances?
Thanks for thinking I/we are not goofy, probably the closest thing we’ve gotten to a compliment since I’ve been posting here. Might be about as close as we’ll get too.
:smiley:

-Radhnoti

32

No. The RealPlayer vids are not my only observation.

Your argument of different evolution is just sophistry. You nor any of the true beleivers, including my new friend WTS have yet to actually answer why no one outside of your group thinks what you are doing is legitimate CMA.

Doesn’t that strike you as odd? Especially when the only other group to get this kind of treatment is Chung Moo Doe. It should make you wonder.

Just because you WANT to beleive something, does not make it true. Sorry, dude.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

33

monkey slap and rad

we base our systems legitamacy on what our superiors tell us ,what we read in books and what we see on tv and in demonstartions…some of us are lucky enought to go to China to see for ourselves if what we do is legitamate or to make a comparison as to what we are practicing and what THEY are practicing. i read ALL the time the comments that state that what SD does is not CMA,well what is CMA if not a blend and a WIDE vARIETY of movements and systems some hard some soft,some linear some circular. CHINA is NOT the
Focal point for ALL fighting arts, And certainly Shaolin IS not the ONLY art out there in VHINA that has a history. The fact that we modernize ourselves to this society in this country upsets people like YOurself monkey slap because you were brought up in the martial arts relm with a more TRADitional approach to the Clothing. When you look at the clothing that is worn for TAichi as well as for Shoalin or karate or bak mei all you see are pants shirts and what the "taichi uniform is ,and all that is,is the COmmoners garb,We in this country have utilized the commoners uniform in Japan and in china and associated it with Martial arts. the gi is a peasant and farmers clothing ensemble for it is durable and resistant to dirt and grime. the china mans common uniform is thinner and lighter,obviously because there are a billion chinese and most people cannot afford to get the tough durable fabric used to make quality clothing. In my opinion the uniforms,gi’s ,frock, has no meaning for me or others at SD other than that is what we wear to work out in,for the reasons i mentioned above. as RAD has stated in our SD history a japanese look had to be adopted for fear of being ostracized and/or killed due to a japanese totalitarian regime taking over china and the southeast asian countries at the time.
PLus when we think of shaolin we think of the monks wearing thier robes and shaved heads and incense burning,WELL WE ARE NOT MONKS,we practice the fighting and meditation aspect of the life they once had. most americans would walk right out of the kwoon (with the exception of a eccentric few) thinking oh my god this is a cult. yet we wear gi;s which is what most americans recognize and WE are still called a cult. this perplexes me. As for what we do as not being CMA’s you say that our forms look nothing like what you do or what you have seen,does that mean that it truly is not CMA? becuase your sifu said it wasnt or that what you read in books conflicts with what we do? how do you know that he books are telling you the truth or what you want to hear or see with your own eyes? how DO YOU KNOW THAT YOUR SIFU IS LEGITAMATE? documents? sincere talking,6th sense about who is lying and who is not? HAve ANY OF YOU ever really STUDIED CHINESE History and Learned of the atrocities and the burning of scrolls at the temple and the killing of hundreds even thousands of monks there? You also state that all we do is call you guys modern wushu and what we do is the “true art” well i must apologize for those who do say this at our school. for i know given my experience before SD that there are other arts and systems that are TRUE to themselves. I have not trashed another persons style or system. but what is Wushu? that is what the CHINESE IN CHINA CALL THIER FIGHTING ARTS. now it has become a sport event and a national treasure but what if any of it is about true fighting? not to say that what Monkey slap or REEmul does is not about true fighting. i guess that what really bugs folks here is the claims that GM sin The’ makes about the history the lineage and what GN SIn claims to know. and it is Alot. i cant say for sure,i take him at his word on things,i Myself have questions about certain things,but i am not in a position to judge him for what he has become or what he has accomplished in his life. Most of you think that he lies,and that there are inconsistancies in ehat he says,and in earlier posts you have cited them,I DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER FOR ANY OF THAT,AS for me gentlemen YOU ARE DEALING WITH A Person that is souly interested in learning what Gm sin And My Sifu MAster Schaefer has to teach. What i am not interested in is all the political BS associated with martial arts schools History Lineage and all that,You KNow I dont Care even if it is MADE UP. I have utilized it in REAL situations i know it works and I believe it to be a chinese fighting art. Regardless of some of the karate flair that this art has. to me KArate is about POwer and to me <thats what fighting’s central theme is ,POWER,and not just physical power either. It is also about flow and grace and discipline,the central themes to ALL martial arts be they Karate Shaolin or this chung moo do_(whatever that is). When you look at REALITY in fighting you dont see people dancing around and acting like a fool in fighting you see powerful strikes and SIMPLE techniques being utilized to end the situation,THE REST IS JUST a physical and mental workout. I have NO illusions about what fighting is and what an ancient system of fighting is either. i know that the shaolin monks utilized the fighting styles of animals,but
within those styles of tiger crane ,mantis snake monkey ,drunken,we see the same PUNCH AND THE SAME KICK DONE IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS,Which one os nore effective for you,is it a Krate chop or a Tiger PAw strike or a snake jab to the eye?
this is the real system at hand people and not talking about SD either,the true art of fighting is an art which surpases all of that form and stance and movement to become something unique to yourself,be it a tiger mantis ,crane or all of the above. And most of ALL of our fighting techniques are THEORY ANYWAY,some work some dont, some techniques are about fighting and some are not,whaich is internal and what is external. Of course my BAk mei is going to look different than yours or my Fu Hok, or my kick or my punch.
Shaolin is what Shaolin is Now..IT IS A SYSTEM OF FIGHTING,and that is the system we practice At SD…FIGHTING,AND DISCIPLINE AND INTERNAL. just like all of you…We have our lineage and our history and thats the way it is BElieve it or not,call it a lie or call it truth ,call it a fraud or call it genuine…whatever you want it to be it is,but that is not necessarily the WAY it is. that is all i have to say now,
Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be, i am.
oh and,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

34

Shaolin is not a system of fighting

Shaolin kungfu is a global term under which there are several systems of fighting.

I could understand that forms that SD claims to have knowledge of that belong to other systems such as Bak Mei might be a little different, however the Bak Mei people have been established long before Shaolin Do and the Shaolin do forms aparently look completely foreign to them.

As for going to China and getting acceptance from the “Shaolin Monks”, Of course they’re not going to tell you you’re full of crap. For one, they would not know and second it would hurt tourism.

When SD was getting started in Austin, they printed up these broshures stating that someone in the SD lineage was taught all of the animal systems from the different Shaolin Masters. For starters each animal system has a lifetime of information and mastery of an animal system was never achieved until the majority of your life had passed. The mastery of multiple systems never happened. To do so contradicts the concept of mastery. As well, None of the Shaolin animal systems in existance recognize the SD tale nor do they recognize the movements in the form.

If Sin is so Apathetic to what the system is called, why not rename it and avoid the hassle. I may have missed some info, but I don’t see how the name Shaolin-do masks chinese origin whith the “Shaolin” being the first word in the name.

35

it might all be bollocks, but you might still get your ass kicked.

My anus is superiorâ„¢

36

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> but what is Wushu? that is what the CHINESE IN CHINA CALL THIER FIGHTING ARTS. now it has become a sport event and a national treasure but what if any of it is about true fighting? not to say that what Monkey slap or REEmul does is not about true fighting. [/quote]
The combined 24 form is a modern form(1956). SD claims it is Shaolin. Why?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>You KNow I dont Care even if it is MADE UP.[/quote]

That’s pretty stupid. If your teacher is an outright liar, and you don’t care…there’s something wrong with you :frowning:

37

This is an old argument. People make up arts all the time, that’s how they get started, they don’t pop out of thin air. Even respectable sifu lie about lineage and such. Who cares? TWS knows Sin The tells tall tales. He studied for seven years (I think). Can he just say “it was a waste of time”. No. It wasn’t for him (seems he feels that way anyway). I wonder though, you say your art looks like arts from around shaolin village. Isn’t your art supposed to come from Fukien? Not Henan. Two far away places, the arts in those two places don’t really resemble each other. And in Henan, the traditional arts are still taught, like Hong Chuan, Tongbei Chuan, etc. Not modern wushu at all, and not like your forms at all either. That’s cool, the whole japanese name thing. What does it prove? Sin The is how many generations from the temple? Two? Ok. Many other sifu, who are between 4-10 generations from the temple, practice similar arts. Yet these arts evolved seperately. Yet they look similar. Your art, which should resemble what was practiced in Fukien Shaolin as it has only been passed down a few generations, does not resemble these other arts. These other arts are very different, yet they all have something in common. What does Shaolin-Do have in common with these other arts? The names of forms? So your art is made up. Who cares? If you like it, practice it. Can these Shaolin-Do people change what Sin says? No. What can they do about the lies? Nothing. It’s not their fault. I think if people didn’t attack them so much they wouldn’t be all like “your a *******, we are good.” They practice Shaolin-Do. Let them work within their own art. It really doesn’t effect the rest of the martial community, they don’t fight, they don’t enter Taolu competitions, as long as they don’t interfere with my training, I don’t care what they do.

Seriously though, I was wondering about the Golden Cockroach form. I’ve never seen it. When I first heard of it, the image popped in my mind of Sin The, great master inspired to create a fighting form based on the fight he saw of two cockroaches in his apartment. Then I got kind of curious. What’s it about? Is there a story behind it? Just curious. Happy training everyone, Hung Ga, Shaolin-Do, Bak Mei, Tae Kwon Do, whatever you may practice. :slight_smile:

38

They do hurt the Shaolin community

False advertisement. You don’t know how often I have had to explain that our school is not associated with the Shaolin-do people. The fact is the general public doesn’t know the difference and, here in America, they are quick to put us all in the same boat even though we are completely different.

Hell I’m not out to “get” the Shaolin-do people, but this is a forum, and I’m here to voice my opinion.

39

If a butcher sells pork as beef is that acceptable? If only one perspective shaolin-doh students reads these posts then they have accomplished something. :stuck_out_tongue:

40

Shaolin Knight and Ubershaman has put it down well.

WTS- everyone I have ever spoken to in the SD organization espouses these very problematical truths.

Noone buys the differing evoloution aurgument because the moves demonstrated do not exhibit the principles of the styles being represented.

As far as history goes,and I’ll use myself as aqn example even though I loathe to, my grand teacher is IN the history books both in China and Taiwan. Not only is he in the history books, but people OUTSIDE of my organization know of our art and it’s history. And what I do is a mere ‘family’ art. SURELY, the one true Shaolin style would be known and recognized outside of it’s own, very insular schools?

Anthropologists and historians look for multiple sources to back up a history. Different, independent routes of evoloution. Every CMA school that I know of can be traced at least to a certain point of history, and you can find records of the arts that influenced them. This is ture even with arts that were persecuted or had records destroyed. You can syill find evidence to paint a picture.

With SD, I would look at it, and say - hmm, karate moves, karate principles, it’s karate. Wait - there are some ‘Chinese’ forms. Hmmm, they do not follow the principles of those styles. Hmmm, either learned from books, video or made up.

Hmmmm.

Are there well knownmembers of the Chinese community or Chinese scholars in Indonesia who can back of up Sin The’s claims? THAT would be interesting.

I would think historians in China would be very interested in Sin The’.

Unless they saw him move. I’m sorry. I’ve looked into it again and again. Every SD guy I’ve met was in shape. THey could do the Karate break boards with spacers thing, and the karate iron body stuff (very bad you, by the way), but the CMA they claim to do is NOT what they say it is. Differing evoloution does not explain it. However it DOES look like other stuff I’ve seen Karate guys pull from books.

Just my obvservation. Selling Spam and calling it steak. It aint the same thing.

I do not dislike any of you. I wish you well. I just think reading the book ‘true beleiver’ would help.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.