BSL Lyrics: Tom Toy

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
21

FWIW

There is a slow way to work tantui. The wushu people do it a lot. You take each strike pose and hold it for five breaths. Being wushu, the stance are held extremely deep. You still move really fast in between, but freeze and hold at the strikes - including the kicks. That means you hold your leg up in the air for five breaths. Of course, non-wushu people would probably say that’s ridiculous for combat (same is true for holding the punch extended and we all do that a lot) but it’s holy murder on the legs. Great conditioning. Tantui has it’s roots in cha quan as does wushu, so it’s not surprising that the wushu people have a lot of ways to work it.

22

I think I didn’t realize this was here when I was reviewing older topics after being away for a while. I hope bringing it up again isn’t a problem. My main question right now is how alike are the tan tui routines? Not to each other of course, but to ones in a different style. I see mainly 10 and 12 routines being talked about. Are some of the routines in them identical? Are routines similar overall, but with some differences in the movements? I’m curious because I finally got a copy of Ten Routine Spring Leg by Ma Zhenbang, Chinese Kung-Fu Series 6. I was hoping it would have the same ten routines that we’re learning (though we’ve only done the first five so far). It looks like the routines are very similar, but there are differences in the movements. I also found some short articles describing routines 1-5 in the YMAA Newsletter archives (look on http://www.ymaa.com/). They look similar, too, but again they appear to have some differences in movements from the way I was taught them. I think there are some differences between those articles and the book, too. So I’m kind of wondering how important these smaller differences really are. Can anyone provide some additional information for me?

23

Essence is important

Dronak,

I think it is not how the little difference between the Tan T’ui sets are important (because that is really a matter of interpretation by the individual) but what each row is attempting to teach the student, i.e., the essence of each row which is found in the lyrics.

There is no right or wrong way amongthe various Tan T’ui sets because tan t’ui is a very old style and thru the years it has been taught to a varity of people who will interprete move differently and will make small changes to imprint their ideas into the set for the next generation.

24

Yes, I suppose that’s true, NorthernShaolin. I guess the spirit/essence of the form is more important than the exact movements in it. Our teacher never gave any real explanation of them to us, none of these lyrics as you’re calling them. We just learned them as basically short practice routines and we usually include them as part of our classes. The essence of each tan tui routine is essentially the same despite differences in some of the movements then? Like if you have 10 routines, routine 1 is always trying to teach the same basic concept even if you don’t perform it in exactly the same way as someone else? If that’s the case, then I will be able to use the lyrics posted here and ones in the book I have to get a better idea of the real purpose of the tan tui routines. By trying to keep that in mind, I can hopefully make my practice of them more meaningful than just treating it as some practice drill. BTW, if you want the names of the routines and the “folk song” for them from the book I have, just say so and I’ll copy them out for you.

25

why poems

I didn’t read the whole thread but hopefully can contribute…

Unfortunately I don’t speak or read Chinese…But

I have heard from those who do that the poems for the sets rhyme. In a sense they are like a little song.

If we go back to our childhood we can remember nursery rhymes because of their sing-song style.

Naturally it would be easy to remember “moves” or techniques that go along with the song.

If you doubt… try singing “I’m a little teapot…” and do the motions. LOL

peace to all

26

Styles of tam tui

A quick question…

Are there Northern and southern style of Tam tui?

Also is there a difference between “springy leg” and others?

I have heard a few different things but am searching for more info.

thanks.

27

tons of tan tui

My experience with different tan tui versions is that the first 4 lines are pretty standard, but then things start to break down after that. It makes sense given the nature of transmission. You learn the first lines first, so you probably work them the most, and they stick.

One of my dear old friends, Eric Ishii (who passed away recently) was a mantis stylist and collected beng bu versions. Beng bu, like tan tui, is a fundamental form and there are tons of versions. He claimed he had around 50 different versions, and he kept them all since he felt they all had something to offer. I imagine you could take the same strategy for tan tui, if you were so inclined.

28

Remember these lyric threads?

I’m working on translating the Tan Tui lyrics for Master Zhang Lingmei, who learned Cha from Grandaster Pang Lingtai (one of the few recognized 9 duan holders in China). It’s a Ten Road Tan Tui. Here’s the first draft of my translation of Master Zhang’s lyrics. I find it interesting that the roads are broken down into separate lyrics within the roads, instead of just one lyric phrase for the whole road. It’s very similar to the BSL version on the whole, except a few notable variations such as no jumping kicks for road nine and some side kicks instead of heel kicks in road eight. It also has some diagonal steps into attacks for nine and ten.

First Road
Beginning Posture
Feet Together, Chamber Fists

  1. Bow Stance, Punch with Fists
  2. Bow Stance, Hook with Left Elbow
  3. Bow Stance, Right Uppercut
  4. Bow Stance, Hammer Fist
  5. Right “Springing” Kick
  6. Bow Stance, Punch with Fist
  7. Bow Stance, Hook with Right Elbow
  8. Bow Stance, Left Uppercut
  9. Left “Springing” Kick
  10. Bow Stance, Press Palms
  11. Feet Together, Punch with Fist
  12. Bow Stance, Flash the Palm
  13. Horse Stance, Supporting Palm
  14. Feet Together, Salute
    Ending Posture

Second Road
2-1 Twist Stance, Brush Hand and Punch
2-2 Right “Springing” Kick and Punch
2-3 Left “Springing” Kick and Punch
Ending Posture

Third Road
3-2 Right Empty Stance, Planting Fist
3-3 Bow Stance, Wheel Hammer Fist
3-7 Right Empty Stance, Planting Fist
Ending Posture

Fourth Road
4-4 Horse Stance, Horizontal Blocking Palm
4-5 Cross Stance, Brushing Hand
4-6 Bow Stance, Palm Strike
Ending Posture

Fifth Road
5-1 Twisted Bow Stance, Block Punch
5-5 Horse Stance, Pressing Elbow
Ending Posture

Sixth Road
6-3 Bow Stance, Horizontal Cutting Palm
6-4 Half-squat Stance, Brushing Hand
6-5 Bow Stance, Pushing Palm
6-6 Bow Stance, Pressing Elbow
6-8 Bow Stance, Hooking Hand and Pushing Palm
Ending Posture

Seventh Road
7-2 Bow Stance, “Beat the Drum” Punch
7-3 Bow Stance, Block Punch
Ending Posture

Eighth Road
8-3 T Stance, Supporting Palm
8-4 Left Side Kick
8-6 Right “Springing” Kick and Punch
8-7 Resting Stance, Crossing Hands
8-13 Right Side Kick
Ending Posture

Ninth Road
9-3 Knee Lift, Crossing Hands
9-4 Step Forward, Blocking Palm, Right Heel Kick
9-5 Bow Stance, Pushing Palms
Ending Posture

Tenth Road
10-1 Bow Stance, Blocking Punch
10-2 Horse Stance, Elbow Block
10-3 Knee Lift, Hanging Hook
10-4 Step Upward, Pressing Palm
10-5 Spearing Palm Hand, Right Arrow “Springing” Kick
10-6 Step Upward, Arcing Palm
10-11 Spearing Palm Hand, Left Arrow “Springing” Kick
10-14 Feet Together, Chamber Fists
Ending Posture

29

making the big bucks now gene :smiley:

sorry to say thats nothing new, just a description of the techniques/movements in each row.

Good info though, especially for students to remember. love those antique names :rolleyes:

How about some lyrics for the Shaolin Temple Sets?

30

Hi gene and shaoshishan,
Gene you wrote: “At Shaolin, I’ve only seen one version of tantui by one of the students of Zhu Tianxi (a layman disciple and folk master in nearby Zhengzhou.) It was a 24 line.”

From what I understand, Zhu Tianxi was a student of Shi Degen who was a student of Wu San Lin (1875 to 1970) who was taught by his father, Wu Gulun (1831 to 1914).
Is the 24 section Tan Tui done by Zhu Tainxi similar to the 12 section Tan Tui as practiced by the Ging Wu? and if it is, which lines?

r.

31

ngokfei: You want something new? Try XMA. Most lyrics are kind of old. That’s sort of the point. These lyric threads were mostly for comparisions, so I had a new one to add to the comparison. This one was interesting since it breaks form with what has been previously posted here as previously stated here.
As for making the big bucks, yeah, I wish. Translating is part of my job here, a grisly part at that, sort of like flipping burgers is part of some other people’s jobs.
I once did an analysis of Xiaohongquan lyrics - I’ll try to dig that up…

r.(shaolin): You know, I’m afraid I’ve only seen two Shaolin 24 TT’s. One was on a Shaolin video, but I can’t remember which. The other wasn’t demonstrated in full, just in parts, like a jibengong. Given that rather short exposure, and fairly long ago at that, so I can’t really answer your question accurately. I think the first line was the same - the first line is almost always the same - but the rest, I can’t really remember.

32

just pulling your chain gene :stuck_out_tongue:

Translating gives me a headache, especially when they use very obscure charters not in the main stream. Forget the “new” characters, I give up :confused:

I do the Chin Woo version with a twist (eagle-claw-ized). And still I had to go ahead an add 2 additional lines from a moslem version :wink:

When I was in HK I met a Sifu Chow who showed me how to do the set like any other flowing set without the repetitions. It really is easier for beginners to learn (especially kids), I keep the left, right left bit as a drill now.

PS: on another note Sifu Wing Kit Lam has just released the Chin Woo Tan Tui Partner set (2 volumes). Good work

33

I do a ten line, very similar to grandmaster Han’s on that video of a video that is on the web.

34

I do the Wing Lam version…

…but you already know that since I wrote that video too. Actually, I haven’t practiced Tan Tui in years - I replaced it with the Songshan Shaolin Jibengong a while back, and lately, on those rare moments when I actually get in to practice anymore, I’ve replaced those with the Xingyi element and animal lines. I still hold Tan Tui in high regard, tho, of course. It’s just been my personal path to move on. My work brings me back - I haven’t really thought about Tan Tui seriously, probably not since I originally posted this thread so long ago, and here I am working on yet another lyric translation of Tan Tui.

35

I’ve recently been allowed to browes my teacher’s closet of notes… He bought a lot of book when he was in Taiwan trying to get as many of the sets he learned in picture form as he could. Some interesting stuff to say the least, whether or not some of that writing is lyrics or not is beyond me, as the only characters I regullarly recognise are the ones for shao, lin, si, tai, chi, qi, gong, and fu… lol

I’m in the process of getting all this stuff together and scan it as some of these books have been rather beaten to hell, I’ll see what I can find for tan tui…

36

very cool, norther practitioner

The original BSL lyrics that I’ve posted on these BSL lyric threads were from Wing Lam’s notes. He had this old notebook, hand copied on a legder book, no less. It was something he copied off his master and Sifu Lam and I worked quite diligently to bring translate those lyrics for posterity (and for his videos). You’ll notice that there’s actually an alternate translation of BSL#7 from Ted Mancuso in Wing Lam’s book on said set. I can’t remember if that made it to our BSL lyric thread for #7. Someday, when I have some time, I’ll have to index all of those here. Or maybe we chan just get our dang serach engine to function properly again… :rolleyes:

37

i have yet to see the wing lam version.

38

Yes, I remember this thread. I was actually wondering why it was being brought up from the dead. :wink:

So these are names for each of the moves in each routine. The book on tan tui I have does the same thing. I think there is at least one other book with tan tui info, but I don’t have it to know what it says. I don’t completely understand the numbering; I’m guessing you left out moves in later routines that were already translated in earlier ones, but that makes it hard to follow what the routine is like.

BTW, my training was like that of norther practitioner – the routines our college club learned were very similar to those in the old video of Grandmaster Han performing the routines. That’s where our line came from, so it is pretty close. I’m not sure quite where the differences came from or why they’re present though.

39

Yeah, it was published, in your magazine, heh heh.

Just do a search on google for A moslem in China and you will find the article,
there are a bunch of jerks that stole the article and were using it on their websites without crediting me or the magazine at all.

Sal

40

Hey I knew Eric too (RIP), who was a very nice person, we traded videotapes of variations of forms (which one day I will transfer all my tapes to DVD!). We both knew the same persons and realized we traded tapes with the same people, so we decided to give each other what tapes we were missing and cut out the middleman so to speak.
Eric worked at Sony and was going to help me get a videogame developed.
Alas, he was making me a great tape the week before he passed away,
and I never got it.
I had called his number to ask if he had sent it, and his roomate informed me of his death that week (its already years ago!), he sai he would send me the tape, but never did. I was so sad that Eric passed away at such a young age.
A very nice person that was seriously into martial arts forms.