Bruce Lee

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Um, I just read on another post that Bruce Lee trained for five years in Wing Chun before coming to America and developing JKD.

You know, at 5 years in any good school, you should be able to fight, but your still pretty young in the arts.

Here is my postulation: Due to the low level of MA available in America at the time and due to the secrecy among those small enclaves that practiced the real deal, Bruce looked really good in comparison to everyone else.

Think about it. Do you remember classmates that you once looked up to, and remember as being great, but now when you look at them, you have surpassed them? They seemed great, because you didn’t know anything when you got that first, lasting impression.

Is Bruce Lee that classmate for this generation of American practitioners? Was he considered great only because of the pillars he stood on?

I mean, it’s easy to look great when everyone else has no idea what you are doing. And when faced with Wong Jack Man, he didn’t exactly beat the guy cleanly (or at all, depending on who you beleive).

Now what would we think of Bruce today? A five year Wing Chun student and movie star. Sure, maybe he’s a bit of a prodigy or a good athlete - but would he stand out at all? Wouldn’t he seem a bit precocious? I kinda doubt it.

I’m not out to slam the man, just the false idol he seems to represent. Frankly, for his time I thought he said things that needed saying - but that was over thirty years ago. Times have changed. Traditional arts have opened thier doors and offered the real training. Entire new fighting cultures have arrived from every part of the globe, and let’s not forget MMA.

The world has changed. But what has this Bruce Lee worship done to a generation of students?

Man, I gotta take it easy on the cold medicine…

2

Well…

I personally admire Bruce because well, he was truley remarkably fast…wether u beleive this or not, he was so fast that in some films(not sure which ones) they had to slow it down because u couldnt’ see some of his movements…although technology wasn’t AS good as it is now, thats still friggin quick…not to mention, bruce probably could really put the hurt on someone, i was watching a documentary movie on him, and his sifu said…“It usually takes a studenta few weeks to learn the basic moves, but it only took Bruce 3 nights to master them”…so not only is he a quick learner, but obviously he practiced alot, and he also trained his body constantly, people say that he was always restless, even when he was just watching TV or something he was in motion, wether it was practicing forms, doing situps(common), or just squeezing a gripper…and, i just started watching Bruce lee movies this year, and he is still impressive to me…

Also think about this: Remember when u were a kid, and u got a toy, at first it seemed like tons of fun, then as time goes, it seems boring and u wonder how u liked it so much? Or even with a video game or something…everything can get boring, and especially a song, when everyones talking about it constantly and playing it constantly, it can and will get boring…i’m assuming you’ve heard bruce lee talked about constantly, am i correct? That will make anyone change their opinions on someone/something…just something to think about, thats why i dont read the Bruce lee posts on this forum anymore(besides this one)…it will get boring…i personally think if bruce were alive today, he’d still be making movies, still be in shape, and probably would’ve been cross training in something, he always promoted it, just never got around to it apparently, not to mention, his movies would be more up to date, and alot cooler i bet…just my 2 cents

3

Yeah, I’m sure he woulda coulda if he was still alive. But I am more into pondering the actual effect of his presence on the scene.

Yeah, he was really fast, but how much of that is genetics and hard training? I don’t see a plethora of super fast Wing Chun men out there (although some are pretty darn fast.)

Would we all be gaga about him if he appeared today, a five year student, proclaiming that he was improving on things?

4

Film Speeds… fact from fiction…

I’m gonna jump into this one, having some knowledge of film & editing as it’s something of a part-time profession as well knowing someone here in Van., that had worked in quite a number of Hong Kong films. Not disrespect Bruce Lee, as I feel somewhat in the spirit of the original post that he was good for his time, but this argument about Lee having to slow down is a total fallacy…

Apprentice said, “wether u beleive this or not, he was so fast that in some films(not sure which ones) they had to slow it down because u couldnt’ see some of his movements…although technology wasn’t AS good as it is now, thats still friggin quick…” no disrespect but this statement is right up there with other myths like Van Damme being a World Champ kickboxer…

Essentially standard filming rates are 24 frames per second anywhere in the world (Hong Kong included). When filming action / fight scenes Hong Kong has always ‘undercranked’ and shot at usually 18 frames per second this essentially makes the action look even faster. This was the case with Bruce Lee, and is still the case with current stars like Jackie Chan & Jet Li. In this regard technology has not changed frame rates.

This individual I know that worked there was also told he was too fast. It was however not so much an issue of speed; basically he had to learn to hold certain strikes for a split second at the end of extension (essentially straight line strikes) and to make punches or kickes that follow a curve or arc even bigger so that they ‘register’ on the camera. He like Lee, Chan & crew still went all out full speed and did not have to slow down in the way that the ‘Lee’ myth purveyors would have everyone believe.

Again this not meant to disrespect Lee, I just prefer to see a separation between fact & fiction. That and I probably have too much time on my hands… :smiley:

5

Ryu: “hand speed…slow camera.. ..5 years in WC.. check, check.
Okay… ahem.”

Ring Ring Ring… Ring Ring Ring… Ring Ri..

Bruce: Hello?

Ryu: Hey! :smiley:

Bruce: ([SIZE=1]aw hell…[/SIZE] ) Hello again…

Ryu: Hey guess what!?

Bruce: sigh What?

Ryu: Okay, you were 5 years in WC right?

Bruce: mmhmm.

Ryu: Were you the best student?

Bruce: No

Ryu: But everyone says that you surpassed WC, and created your own style.

Bruce: SIGH I didn’t surpass WC, I just wanted to add some more too it in order for me to express myself physically in the martial arts. I had a good base in it, and wanted to cross train.
That’s what everyone is doing now anyway…and it’s good.
I wasn’t the best, and I don’t think it was bad, etc. I just wanted to be expressful in my own self. And because of it I was able to accomplish much more.

Ryu: Okay, well what about the camera stuff! Didn’t they tell you to slow down!

Bruce: What??

Ryu: The camera, man! The camera! They asked you to slow down right??

Bruce: Yeah, but it’s movie-making. You gotta see what you’re throwing.

Ryu: I…oh. Okay, well how bout this…um hold on. gotta get my notes.

Bruce: Will this take long? :frowning:

Ryu: Okay, should we be “gaga” over you because…

Bruce: Who the hell is gaga over me?? I never told people to be gaga over me…I hate that.

Ryu: Oh… okay… well wait! What should people think about a man who proclaims to be improving on things…

Bruce: I was improving myself. I never proclaimed that either.
Is that what people are saying about me?

Ryu: Yeah, man!

Bruce: Well I’m not the moon in heaven. So no one should be doing anything except training and finding what works for them effectively. So thanks for the call. Good b…

Ryu: Hey wait!

Bruce: Yes??

Ryu: Who won the fight with Wong Jack Man!!?

Bruce: SIGHHH! Can I go now? I have some sticky rice boiling.

Ryu: Okay okay, hold on I gotta better one. Okay. Is Jeet Kune Do the best style??

Bruce: Okay I’m hanging up now.

Ryu: No, no! Okay wait wait, I’ll ask a good one. Ah! Are you the strongest man in the world??

Bruce: Yes, and I can also leap tall buildings in a single bound :rolleyes: But I’m better at cooking rice, so …

Ryu: Hey wait wait! Okay, um…Chinese girls they…you know…
they you know, nudge nudge, say no more say no more :smiley:

Bruce: …huh?

Ryu: Do they “go?” :smiley: Huh? Are they “goers” Did you “go” with them?? nudge nudge say no more??

Bruce: uh…yeah I went with them to some shows, and some dances and stuff in Hong Kong…

Ryu: Dancing?? huh ho!! SAY NO MORE nudge nudge!
they can “dance” huh?? :smiley: A little “dancing” are we?? Nudge nudge??

Bruce: Look are you trying to instigate something?

Ryu: You’ve gone with it then? huh? :smiley: Nudge nudge?
you’ve done it?

Bruce: Done what?

Ryu: …“it” with a Chinese woman..you’ve done it?
You’ve “made love” to a Chinese woman?

Bruce: Yes.

Ryu: … what’s it like? :confused:

Bruce: click

Ryu: Hello? Hellooooooo?

This real life phone call to the spirit of Bruce Lee brought to you by Ryu.

6

This Philosohpy I use when I train myself is JKD. Understand that the MA he invented was fit for him. The philosophy on the other hand, that can and should be used by anyone who is serious into the arts.

7

I love Monty Python;)

8

That skit makes me laugh no matter how many times I see it.

Ryu

9

My two pennies

LOL @Ryu
I only saw a Bruce Lee film for the first time about 8 months ago.
I only know what I know about him through people like yourselves on forums, so I would not like to er, postulate about Bruces real life martial arts ability. However, I do think that (overtraining or not) his physical stature is amazing, and whichever way you look at it, obviously the result of a lot of hard work. Which makes him a bit of an inspiration for short, skinny martial artists like myself. Also, his execution is so crisp.
But, you know, he was a martial arts movie star, and now he’s dead, so lets just let him leave that inspirational role model legacy rather than trying to tear him down.
I don’t know whether he was like “WC is crap, (even though I haven’t mastered it yet) so I’m going to juice it up” or whether he was like “I can adapt Wing Chun and make it work better for me, without passing negative comment on classical gongfu”. Who knows?
But if a Wing Chun guy of 5 years standing said he had produced a new MA with WC at its base, obviously today nobody would listen. But then again, nobody would listen if somebody said they’d invented the wheel or sliced bread would they? Everything must be evaluated for its time.

10

THANK YOU

“But if a Wing Chun guy of 5 years standing said he had produced a new MA with WC at its base, obviously today nobody would listen. But then again, nobody would listen if somebody said they’d invented the wheel or sliced bread would they? Everything must be evaluated for its time.”

Today Bruce may not seem like anything special cause we now know alot of the things he had to discover. Back in the day martial arts were very new to the west and he was showing us things nobody here had ever seen. It’s like going back to the caveman days and showing them a lighter, they would be impressed by you producing fire out of this thing but if you walked in the streets today showing people a lighter they’d smack you. In the 60’s weight training was mostly left to bodybuilders, so him weight training for MA was somthing radical. All the interval training and circuit training was new again somthing most people didn’t do. He may be average now(or a little above) but that’s only cause we reaped the benifits of his experimentation. Cause like him or hate him, most of us non asians would never have learned as much as we have without him.

11

You and I are right Shaolin Dynasty. Big up ourselves.

12

LOL! Ryu. Funny & true.

So you can talk to dead people? Hey man,can you call up Alan Hale (The guy who played the Skipper from Gilligan’s Island)?

Badger

13

Bruce was still in the early middle stages of his development as a philosopher/warrior when he passed away.

But I respect him because he has been able to illuminate the path for so many, and because he’s so fun to watch.

14

ryu you fricken rule.

Yeah bruce lee open up martial arts for the western world but everyone forgets 1 thing HE’S DEAD!!! He cant kick anyone’s @$$ now. and everyone studys JKD and forgets one thing BRUCE LEE MADE THAT STYLE FOR HIMSELF!!! NOT EVERYONE TO COPY OFF OF HIM!!! If you really learned from Bruce Lee you would realize he was not the first to have that philosopy,you would also realize that you can’t study JKD because there is no JKD. Miyamoto Musashi belived that centuries ago. Bruce Lee didn’t discover or invent anything …he just looked at the old stuff in a differnet direction. So everyone just needs to stop this whole, "I study the same thing Bruce Lee studyied"blah blah blah!

15

Bruce Lee never claimed to be inventing something new or to be reinventing the wheel…he simply expressed what he felt was the truth, and it didn’t always agree with what the accepted norms were. Was Lee superman? Of course not. But what he accomplished took a lot more than what many of his critics give him credit for. Do you think that just any nobody could come around claiming to have something new and gain the kind of respect that bruce got? It’s not like people didn’t know what martial arts were. People knew all about karate, TKD, judo, and yes they knew about kung fu. There was already a martial arts establishment in America by this time. And then here this young guy comes with no official certification in ANY art or any black belts…he has his own ideas, which in many cases put him in direct contradiction with the popular establishment. Do you really think it is easy to come around on your own like that without getting downgraded and trampled into obscurity?

People took Bruce seriously simply because he was GOOD, and they knew it. He put himself out there and openly showed everyone what he was about without pulling any punches or hiding any thoughts and then developed a network of people who just kept spreading the word, “This guy is fukkin good!”. I’m sorry but that just doesn’t happen to you if you’re merely a mediocre martial artist with a loud mouth and a few acting credentials. If so many armchair fools think that they know enough about the arts and about Bruce Lee to say that he sucked, then I wonder why all the MA experts who knew Bruce well such as Ed Parker, Jhoon Rhea and Gene LeBell have nothing but great things to say about him?

16

Ryu - you da man. That was a fine answer.

But - and keep in mind, I am NOT trying to tear him down, just exploring this thought –

Bruce Lee’s ideas were only revoloutionary because he was in America. And possibly, Southern China. Having studied both Northern and Southern styles, I’ve found Northern CMA types have been cross training arts for centuries - they even have a history of spending time traveling and cross training. Southern styles seemn to be more cult like with everyone outsdide the kung fu family beiong an outsider - and well, us insiders we’ve got something special. (I realize this is a generalization, but I think there is some truth to it).

Bruce Lee’s philosophies were nothing new to a great many Norhern CMA like Baji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, North Mantis - these guys cross trained and fought.

But in the west, where we absorbed that JMA/KMA/SCMA cult like, military attitude and at that time mostly had low levels of training knowledge - he was revoloutionary. He had the lighter - the West was full of cavemen.

I just question everyone following the words of wisdom of somebody, who while perhaps a prodigy, really had limited experience. Just a taking a gaze at the emperor.

Oh, and man I wish I was in his condition. Um, physical, not dead.