Bouncing stretching and weight training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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I’m sure this will cause a some debate but…

Weight training is NOT good for power (for kung-fu) in the long term, and bouncing stretching IS good for your legs for practical situations.

about me first…I study Mizong, used to train and teach kick-boxing and muah-thai, used to weight training, and am a fitness instructor…

so why am I saying this…

Well I used to belong to the western school of thought but now I have seen the ‘eastern’ light!

Weight training and press ups are good for short term power only. But as they both build muscles around and tighten the joints you will not get the same relaxed benefits form training without them. less mobility in the joints means less speed and less follow through, but most importantly - less snap action. I used to lift weights and train very hard, and I had fast hands…but now after not doing weights (or press ups) for over 2 years and conentrating on relaxing the joints my hands are much faster and i am more powerful then ever before. And this is despite being over 20 pounds lighter. Its down to technique and correct training.

When I first started Mizong I asked my teacher (Master Lu jun hai - via a translater!) why we dont do press ups in class…his reply was short, sharp, and painfully true, he said ‘why?? you wont be doing them in a fight’! When I asked him how to develop power without press ups or weights he said ‘train and practise hard, tan tui will develop power’ - how right he is. Tan tui strengthens the shoulders without developing size or mass, it builds the smaller muscle gruops and works on both static active and explosive strengh. This fundemental training gives great results by itself, combine this with internal training and weapons training and you power will far exceed that achieved by doing press ups and / or weights…even if you cant lift half as much as your weight lifting friends. Relaxation is the key.

press ups and weight training are excellent for power training if you are doing kick-boxing, boxing, muay thai, etc. The power used is different it comes from a push as opposed to a snap. here is an example…

a door as a glass window in it. If a powerful kick-boxer front kicks the door (not on the glass), it will fly open and when it hits the door stop / wall the glass will break. If a powerful kung-fu practitioner fornt kicks it (not on the glass), the glass will break before the door hits the door stop / wall. The difference is the power used stayed in the target damaging it, instead of go through the target and sending it backwards.

I’ve more to say but let me getting on to the merits of bouncing stretching.

Firstly… You can NOT rely on bouncing stretching alone to get flexible. You need relaxed stretching and static active stretching to.

Far more professional athletes suffer from pulls and tears to their muscles and tendons than normal people despite in peak physical condition. Why? simple…they train one way and compete another way (same as the why do press ups when you wont use them ina fight statement). I’ve been doing ballistic (bouncing) stretching since I started doing mizong…and boy does it hurt…but it doesnt hurt that much anymore. I can also now kick hard and fast form cold and not worry about pulling something…why?? because my body as become accustomed to it. A real fight is not like a competition or sparing…you DONT have time to warm up, you’re gonna go straight form cold to explosive without warming up. Ballistic / bouncing stretching gets your body accusomted to it GREATLY lessening the chances of pulling something. But you need to have been doing it for a long time. When I first started doing it my hamstrings were sore non-stop for about 1 year!!! after a year the pain started to dissappear and now I’m only a little bit sore 1 (or 2 days if trained very hard) after training / class.

you STILL need the normal slow relaxed stretching to get the flexibility you desire, but you also NEED the ballistic stretching to help with your dynamic flexibility and to save you from any tears / injuries if you have to move fast / fight from cold.

You need to train your body for what its going to do. Slow stretches are great if you are going to kick slow, likewise, bouncing / ballistic stretches are great if you are going to kick fast.

These are of course a mixture of traditional and personal insights. Now I’m sure lots of you will disagree, and I welcome all comments both agreeing and disagreeing with me.

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1997 called; it wants its thread back.

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Gosh! Thanks for your insights! I’ll be sure to let all the shotputters and olypmic weight trainers, who are THE MOST EXPLOSIVE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, and some of the most flexible, know they’ve got it all wrong.

Perhaps the problem is not that weight training isn’t so good for fighting, but that you sucked at weight training because you didn’t know how to use the tool to get the right benefit.

I can think of four different ways to use weights off the top of my head that force an entirely different adaptive response. I’m sure there are others.

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http://www.alteredtime.com/images/Barrios_5_10k/I%20SEE%20THE%20LIGHT.jpg

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I love unsubstantiated statistics, personally.:rolleyes:

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Yeah OK.

Stimulant - Since I’ve been in some form of physical therapy for most of my life, and have several friends who are PT’s, I can speak with some authority on stretching. Bouncing while stretching WILL tear your muscles. If you don’t believe me, keep doing whatever you want, you’ll be going to see my PT buds to fix yourself when your done. As to the weight training issue, MP has brutalized the correct with a hidden Kama Sutra Dim Mak technique, so I shall not rehash.

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There is some sort of stretching that involves bouncing, as I recall, but it assumes a previous level of warm up and basic flexibility. I can’t remember what it’s called…

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ballistic stretching.

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Ah. Yes. Of course.

Ballistic stretching DOES have some value. I can’t remember the name of the response it’s supposed to ellicit though. No no, other than tearing your hamstrings.

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Going Balistic

Yes ballistic stretching involves some bounce. It is usually done after the muscles have been warmed up, and by those who have a pre-existing degree of flexibility. I took the first post to mean that ballistic stretching was his primary emans of stretching. If that is not the case, then my response may have been a bit harsh. If that is the case, I stand by my reply as stated. Satic, Ballistic, and Relaxed stretching are all viable. I re-read the post and Stim says he doesn’t rely solely on Ballistic stretching. That’s good because IMO most folks aren’t flexible enough to rely on it without hurting themselves. I know from my own training that weight training has merits for whatever fitness goals you may want to acheive. The goal determines the technique.

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and its the whole West V East theory thing again!!

my shifu is 64 and has always done ballistic stretching…he can touch his chin with his foot when doing a front kick with a straight leg (no he hasnt got little legs!). Please let me know who many more of you can do it…especially when you reach 64!

I knew I would draw lots comments anti what I said and the few anti me…but what can I say…how traditional is traditional when you change centries old practises because new (western) science says ‘It’s bad for you’. Chinese kung-fu and medicine is based on different principles to western, and is still a long way from being understood and accepted in the west in its traditonal form!

all comments welcome

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thanks for your comments bentmonk…I did think your first reply was harsh…but glad to see you re-read what I wrote!

Merryprankster…yes shot putters etc are some of the most explosive people in the world, I have no doubt about it, but not all their training reflects what they sport.

There is habbit of football (sorry, soccer!) coached to make the team jogging around the pitch for ages to help their fitness…this is now very slowly changing as many sports scientists have pointed out that they NEVER spend that amount of time jogging in a game. What is being done now is that they have borken it down into a % jogging, a % sprinting, a % walking, and a % trotting as this reflects the nature of a soccer match. In time it would be nice to see boxers doing 3 minute fast jogs (almost sprints), 1 min rest, 3mins again, 1 min rest and so on to reflect the nature of fitess they need in a boxing match!

training is relaive to what you do

Like wise…stretching for flexibility is fine, stretching for kicking is only good if you have a stong ballistic element (bouncing stretches, bet yet hard high / stretchec ballistic kicks), that emulate what you are trying to train, in this case kicks punches etc.

like my Shifu says, why do press ups when you will never do them in a fight (well i hope you wont for your sake!). There’s no time to relax stretch in a real fight so your body needs to have at least some degree of being accustomed to ballistic (bouncing) stretches.

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There is habbit of football (sorry, soccer!) coached to make the team jogging around the pitch for ages to help their fitness…this is now very slowly changing as many sports scientists have pointed out that they NEVER spend that amount of time jogging in a game. What is being done now is that they have borken it down into a % jogging, a % sprinting, a % walking, and a % trotting as this reflects the nature of a soccer match. In time it would be nice to see boxers doing 3 minute fast jogs (almost sprints), 1 min rest, 3mins again, 1 min rest and so on to reflect the nature of fitess they need in a boxing match!

Yup, that explains it.

Do your research on modern sports medicine and come back when you’re done. You’re talking about training methods that are over 20 years old. NO modern day athlete trains this way anymore.

FWIW, you just shot yourself in the foot with this argument. Traditional doesn’t always mean right–there are better ways to do things than the way they’ve always been done.

Or do you just mean Western traditional is wrong and Eastern traditional is right? That wouldn’t surprise me in the least.

but not all their training reflects what they sport.

ALL their training is designed to be as explosive as possible. ALL of it. Sport specific is the mantra. Try asking Rhadi Ferguson (Olympic level Judoka) how he trains…

Bottom line is this–you don’t know what you are talking about w/regards to western sports training. Go learn something until you do.

I’m not telling you eastern methods suck, I’m saying you don’t know jack about western sports training.

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merryprankster

I didnt shoot mysely in the foot at all re-read it. ballistic / bouncing stretching does what your muscles would do in a fight from cold it emulates the situation, like wise changing the soccer training does the same thing, emulates the situation.

It also has nothing to do with western being wrong and eastern being right. both see the same thing differently.

I know a lot about (western) modern sports trianning, anatomy, etc, its my job. And eastern methods are a hobby of mine!

:slight_smile:

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I’m glad you have it all figured out stimulant.

“Merryprankster…yes shot putters etc are some of the most explosive people in the world, I have no doubt about it, but not all their training reflects what they sport”

You neglect to mention the olympic weight lifters which Merry brought up. They are some of the most explosive and flexable athletes on the planet which is a direct result of their training. Where else will you see 6’ tall, 350 lbs men dunking basketballs and doing splits? Kind of sounds like you don’t know much about various methods of lifting weights and how to use them to accomplish goals.

“In time it would be nice to see boxers doing 3 minute fast jogs (almost sprints), 1 min rest, 3mins again, 1 min rest and so on to reflect the nature of fitess they need in a boxing match”

It’s called jumping rope for rounds, hitting the bags for round, sparring for rounds, etc and boxers do plenty of it. They jog for overall fitness and to strengthen their legs.

Anyhoo, sounds like you have it all figured out. Keep fighting the good fight.

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Hi KKM!

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Originally posted by stimulant
and its the whole West V East theory thing again!

There’s nothing west versus east going on here. There are plenty of eastern resistance training methods, including those from the martial arts, and including those from the internal family of martial arts.

The only thing going on here is the way you like versus some other ways. The former shouldn’t be bolstered up under a misapprehension that it represents some esoteric tradition, eastern or otherwise; it should stand or fall on its own merits.

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welcome comments ChristoperM

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Stimulant-

Iam not sure what press ups are. I think you call them by different names in europe.

If press ups, are same as what we call military press in the states. Then it is obvious, you have choose the correct exercise that mimics the movement you will do in MA.

Your not a volleyball player so why are you doing presses to begin with? Sport training principle of specificity.

Which kinda leads me to believe ( no insult intended, stimulant) you might be using bodybuilding methods in your weight training.

Their is a big difference between strength training for sports and bodybuilding. Unfortunately, bodybuilding techniques permeate popular weight training media.

Your glass door analogy is correct, intuitively and as far as physics. Power is a function of force and time. The faster your muscles contract and the more force produced = more power.

However, proper weight training can improve power. Fast twitch muscle fibers must be excercised if you are to improve power. This type of training DOES NOT cause muscles to grow in size very much. It moves the force/time curve to the left. Bodybuilding tech. works more on slow twitch fibers.

Our/your sifu is right in a way, because bodybuilding/size development weight training moves the force/time curve to the right. Meaning in slows down your muscles ability to contract powerfully.

Techniques such as supersets, split routine, inverted pyramids, reps between 6-15, etc. all optimize muscle hypertrophy and slows down power. If you used any of these it shouldn’t be any wonder why you feel your power hasn’t improved much.

Increase in muscle size often, surpass development of the tendons and ligaments. That is why many amatuer bodybuilders can rarely do anything more than STRIKE A POSE with those muscles.

You are right stimulant, relaxation is the key. Hypertrophy sometimes cause the muscle to remain in a state of mild contraction, the BURN, that many bodybuilders aims for. Also detrimental for power. Because a muscle cannot contract quickly if it is already in a state of tension to begin with.

Weight training can and has been used to improve performance. But as you said it must be the correct method, it cannot be methods you see in the Arnold, Ferrigino, books or Flex magazine. These methods will actually work against your performance. Great for making muscles look good though.

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Weight training has its place and lots of advantages.

but it is not needed. bodybuilding is great for looking good, but again not needed.

I once had a english shifu (stopped trianing with him when he started to claim to speak to the dead…!) who was immensly strong yet was only 5’4" VERY thin and weighd under 140 pounds. All his strength was from training his kung-fu!

He had amazing rooting and static strength (also very good static active and explosive strength) and was able to become immovable in horse stance, could not push him, could not lift him up (despite his light weight) and could not even bend his arms. A lot was to do with his good qi, but also his relaxed strength.

My current shifu is a pure ‘old skol’ master from china. he is 64 and very strong also, likewise all his strength is from training, Tan Tui prodices great strength in the shoulders and arms for punching, and great strength in the legs for kicking. Weapons training produces great results for all techniques as it produces core strength whilst giving good results to the arms, shoulder, wrists etc.

weight training is not needed, I’d rather spend the time training technique and forms.

I have a friend who is 5’8" tall, 230pounds and strong (porbably stronger!) as an ox. He has been training a very long time in various martial arts and is a very good fighter and grappler. On a resent training visit to china he met his shifus’ shifu…and said he could not do anything, it was like trying to grapple water. All his time weight training and strength accounted for nothing.

Now obvioulsy mr john doe public is not a master of taichi so his strenght and weight will be an advantage, but my point is that wight training is not needed.