Body Structure Functional Application

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1013422]In ba gua and hsing I students are told to do static standing postures, stake standing, for 10 minutes every day and then 20. There are some benefits martially. You do feel more rooted. Once you understand this rooted feeling I believe there is no use wasting time standing there for 20-40 minutes every day. You get the feeling and then you grab a kettle bell and work out with this alignment in mind. That’s ONLY for the case in the MARTIAL part. Static standing has other benefits. I feel calmer, energized, mentally stable, and healthier after static standing. It’s fine if you want to do it as a meditation for the benefits I just listed but don’t kid yourself into thinking that standing there pretending to be an oak tree will give you martial skills.

I also don’t believe in static posture testing. If someone moves in on me and my position sucks causing me to move I’m not going to try and turn into a stone gargoyle. I’m going to turn into a real gargoyle and fly to s better postion where I can beat him or her up. What’s the point in standing there while some dude pushes me and I can’t push back? Of course I’m going to fall![/QUOTE]

That’s why you practice it dynamically!

42

Robert,

What I can’t believe is how you’re ducking my question.

You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about…

You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure…

You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC…

but yet you refuse to explain how your version is different and more efficient.

Okey, dokey…

43

[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1013422]In ba gua and hsing I students are told to do static standing postures, stake standing, for 10 minutes every day and then 20. There are some benefits martially.

I also don’t believe in static posture testing. If someone moves in on me and my position sucks causing me to move I’m not going to try and turn into a stone gargoyle. I’m going to turn into a real gargoyle and fly to s better postion where I can beat him or her up. What’s the point in standing there while some dude pushes me and I can’t push back? Of course I’m going to fall![/QUOTE]

Standing in a static position makes you better at standing in a static position.

A static posture test makes you better at being able to maintain a specific posture when a force is applied to that specific position at specific angles.

The basics of human adaptation training don’t change- specific adaptation to applied demand.

44

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1013421]And how do you think all of those high level people got to be higher level than the ones with “poor structure”? It sure wasn’t by doing structure tests.[/QUOTE]

But it can be hit or miss. All I did was make sure you feel it. That’s the job of the instructor/coach.

Some people studied WCK for 20 - 30 years and have no inkling. Maybe its because you are an outsider to WCK and have no idea how it is taught, nor have you ever taught the art to see how most beginners take what they are taught as lame. Stand in YJKYM? That sucks! Out the window it goes!

But then, what have you left? Just a bunch of hand traps added into a boxing structure. Oh, but wait! We’ll call it JKD…

45

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1013426]Robert,

What I can’t believe is how you’re ducking my question.

You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about…

You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure…

You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC…

but yet you refuse to explain how your version is different and more efficient.

Okey, dokey…[/QUOTE]

I think he just explained it… and it makes a lot of sense.

That would also explain why Alan Orr’s approach looks more like boxing/grappling and less like what many perceive to be WC… because it is more structurally sound in an environment where your goal is to inflict as much damage on your opponent as possible while receiving as little damage as possible.

46

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1013426]Robert,

What I can’t believe is how you’re ducking my question.[/QUOTE]

Ducking? I thought I answered them?

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1013426]You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about…[/QUOTE]

Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1013426]You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure…[/QUOTE]

I would say that what I described above is different from TWC.

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1013426]You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC…[/QUOTE]

More fight efficient? I said it would give you better mechanics. Fighting is a matter of your experience, timing, and who you are fighting. You are talking about fighting, and I am talking components of a fighter. I told you the obvious advantage- Power. When you engage the body’s largest muscles (in the butt and the legs) in everything you do, you have more drive. Why hit a person 10 times in a second, when once will do? Who wins a fight between Victor Parlati with no body structure, Victor with some body structure, or Victor with optimized body structure? You are talking about apples and oranges. I’m not biting into a stupid argument of “this is better than you” - that’s so high school. I already know the reality of fighting… You have an advantage use it. It’s just another weapon in the arsenal. But if you don’t have it…

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1013426]but yet you refuse to explain how your version is different and more efficient.

Okey, dokey…[/QUOTE]

Hope that explains it. Victor, we’ve been acquaintances for a long time, surely you know my personality. I have no delusion about “stylistic” superiority.

47

Of course all this talk about all the WC people with bad structure, bad technique, bad training methods, few people that want to train hard and compete does beg the question… why would anyone with half a brain not just go to learn a proven functional training style where there are plenty of training partners, proven training methods, and, probably, less expensive?

48

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1013434]Of course all this talk about all the WC people with bad structure, bad technique, bad training methods, few people that want to train hard and compete does beg the question… why would anyone with half a brain not just go to learn a proven functional training style where there are plenty of training partners, proven training methods, and, probably, less expensive?[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly why despite your previous statements to the contrary—it is hard to find folks who want to compete among those who also want to do a TMA like VT.

49

[QUOTE=chusauli;1013433]Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.[/QUOTE]

Huh?

That makes no sense at all.

50

Well if nothing else it would be less confusing.

Now, is rooting part of body structure? :eek:

51

[QUOTE=YungChun;1013435]Which is exactly why despite your previous statements to the contrary—it is hard to find folks who want to compete among those who also want to do a TMA like VT.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I’m basing my statement partially on what you told me.

52

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1013436]Huh?

That makes no sense at all.[/QUOTE]

Dale, you are an outsider to WCK…

  1. Most WCK people only use the arm. Look at the first punch in Siu Nim Tao. Locked static stance, only arm power pushing the punch out.

My way uses the pelvis and horse - you actually use the YJKYM from day one.

  1. Most people when they do Cern Jut/ Cern Tok at each section of the Jong, simply wave their arms. There is no rising/falling pelvic thrust of the horse (looks like lovemaking) - all 6 vector forces (up down, forward backward, left right) are engaged.

  2. If you throw a medicine ball in YJKYM, do you thrust your whole torso forward, or simply throw it with your arms?

53

Again, I don’t care to debate non wing chun visiting folks who comment on wing chun. Or other who claim a wing chun label but dont really do much wing chun.Others can argue with them of they wish.

I understand what Robert is saying about the importance of structure and he has devised his own tests of structure.Others including my self have their own tests and have had them for quite some time.

Ho Kam Ming and Augustine Fong pay and have always paid a great deal of attention to structure for serious beginning students and testing the structure in different contexts. Some drifting, casual students and visitors may miss the careful attention.

Ho kam Ming is Augustine Fong’s sifu-but Fong Sifu as good creative students do has his own curriculum, insights and teaching methods though the subject - wing chun- is the same.

I began wing chun in 1976 and paid careful attention to the foundations and to structure. If I didn’t get it at my school I would have gone somewhere else-but not probably to another wing chun school.SOME of the schools that I have seen do not pay enough attention to the details of wing chun structure- without which wing chun’s development of power, balance and leverage can be flawed. Once having developed good structure one can adapt to circumstances.. as well built feats of engineering in obeying the laws of nature do.

Structure is style specific and ballet, shotokan, chen taiji among others can have their own structure depending on the key motions that each activity wants to do. Good wing chun structure is an unique achievement. Unfortunately, except for key students who paid for and took private lessons- the great Ip Man paid uneven attention to the students in many of the regular classes many of which were taught by other students.

Wing chun is NOT the only way to self defense but it has it’s own requirements in structure-vertical and horizontal, and in punching, palm work, elbows
, shoulder, knees, feet and footwork
As part of kung fu etiquette I wont comment on other specific individual. sub styles or schools.

joy chaudhuri

54

Thank you Joy!

Great insight into the teaching of your lineage and it is true Sigung Yip Man withheld a lot from those who never had private lessons.

55

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1013382]Body structure = more b.s. from a bunch of theoretical non-fighters.

Every physical activity has the concept of body structure… from football, to baseball, to wrestling, to bjj, to judo, to basketball, to ballroom dance.

Body structure also changes depending on the circumstances.

Beginners in most activities pretty much learn it and then never have to give too much thought to it again after they get up into the intermediate levels.

Something is seriously wrong if “advanced” practitioners are spending a bunch of time worrying about structure.[/QUOTE]

you tell em little buddy!

http://nicolasb.com.ar/archivos/2009/10/grumpy-old-man.jpg

56

Finally, an answer…

Okay, Robert…So about this:

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
“You claim to know what TWC body structure is all about…”

Robert: “Yes, you do not pump the pelvis like lovemaking do you when you throw a punch? You have to hump your opponent like a ***** dog when you strike them. This way, you fak them up.”
…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
“You claim to have come up with a different version of body structure…”

Robert: “I would say that what I described above is different from TWC.”
…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
“You claim that your version is more fight efficient than other systems - and obviously that includes TWC…”

Robert: “More fight efficient? I said it would give you better mechanics. Fighting is a matter of your experience, timing, and who you are fighting. You are talking about fighting, and I am talking components of a fighter. I told you the obvious advantage - Power. When you engage the body’s largest muscles (in the butt and the legs) in everything you do, you have more drive.”
…

***NOW I’ve seen some of Alan Orr’s vids (and the fights involving his guys) and yes…this “pumping the hips” thing is GOOD. It does provide more power and drive. And at certain times during an encounter - and at certain distances - it will provide more power and more pressure while coming in at one’s opponent. And yes, it’s not part of TWC.

But that’s it.

Other than this, I’ve yet to see or hear anything fight functional about what you do that’s different than any other wing chun method I’ve ever seen - regarding body structure.

But I will give one other thing to you in this regard - besides the hip pumping power generation.

You’ve brought a lot of attention to the whole issue of body structure within wing chun in recent years - and that’s also good - because I agree with those (including you obviously) who believe that many people within wing chun don’t develop their basic structure, drive, legs, and stance work in general to the point where these things should be.

57

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1013434]does beg the question… why would anyone with half a brain not just go to learn a proven functional training style where there are plenty of training partners, proven training methods, and, probably, less expensive?[/QUOTE]
well, one reason is, it apparantly seems to attract alot of a$$holes…:p:D

58

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1013460]well, one reason is, it apparantly seems to attract alot of a$$holes…:p:D[/QUOTE]

Prerequisites:

  1. Must have large chip on shoulder
  2. Have zero tolerance for those who disagree with you
  3. Must have no sense of humility and or respect
  4. Tattoos, must have lots of tattoos
  5. An affinity for thug wear
  6. Must praise MMA as the single greatest fighting platform in the world.
59

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46959

link to similar thread a few years ago, same arguments and all…nothing much has changed…maybe a few people need to experience it for themselves instead of reading about it or watching it on a vid and making conclusions from there..

James

60

I don’t know Andrew… The tendency on any board is to hack apart anything and everything having to do with the subject ad infinitum IME.

I guess that’s true. And its probably hard to do anything else when all you can share is text, other than repeat what’s already been said over and over in the TCMA/MMA flamefest.

Also, IMO it’s a valid topic.. If anyone can share any info on VT use of structure that will help out someone’s VT then great…

Yeah, I guess so. Better use of the web talking about this stuff than watching pr0n … from a WC POV anyway …