Ok so been doing some BJJ of late which has been great, really enjoying it.
Something came up in last nights class.
Teacher had me in mount and said there is not much you can do from here as he was getting ready for a sub, and that was true to an extent.
My old Kung Fu brain was ticking over and I said well I can jam and elbow into your groin or go for the grab - it was a target.
He could do some nasty things also but if I get that first shot I would have thought most people are going to have trouble trying to finish a technique in this type of pain. I figure im on the bottom and have nothing to lose so its a target.
The other thing I have heard them say is that its a desparate move, I would have thought its just a logical one (self defence flavour).
I just feel sometimes with the BJJ people they get lazy and think no one is going to go for that stuff
Whatever that you can do to your opponent, your opponent can do that to you too. It’s better to develop some ground skill than try to depend on your counter-ground skill. If you can make your body to be relax without wasting unnecessary energy, that will be a good start.
It’s better to learn
striking skill than to learn counter-striking skill.
throwing skill than to learn counter-throwing skill.
ground skill than to learn counter-ground skill.
It’s better to use “skill” and lose than to use “counter-skill” and win, because someday the guy who always use the skill will have good skill but the same can’t be said about the guy who always play counter.
He could do some nasty things also but if I get that first shot I would have thought most people are going to have trouble trying to finish a technique in this type of pain.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Blacktiger;1219333]
I just feel sometimes with the BJJ people get lazy and think no one is going to go for that.
Thoughts??[/QUOTE]
Kung Fu, at least how I was taught, teaches you to look for opportunity anywhere and work outside the box when needed. I don’t know if it’s about “being lazy”, but many people don’t learn to think this way. They work only from their catalog of techniques.
I think Kung Fu’s adaptability and attacking from unorthodox or compromised angles or positions is a strength.
[QUOTE=Blacktiger;1219333]but if I get that first shot …[/QUOTE]
If you can get the 1st shot, that means your opponent doesn’t have the dominate control over you. I still think it’s better to train how to get the dominate control instead.
Here is a simple example. In stand up grappling, if you can get your opponent in double overhook or double underhook, your opponent won’t be able to strike you. The same principle can be applied in the ground game as well.
To be fair, “if” apples to getting the mount and having G&P position.
I’ve seen guys get out of it, so have you. Elbow to the artery is definitely something, but I always see it as a press as opposed to a strike and usually combined with an outside ankle stopping the mounters leg from stabilty.
[QUOTE=Blacktiger;1219333]Ok so been doing some BJJ of late which has been great, really enjoying it.
Something came up in last nights class.
Teacher had me in mount and said there is not much you can do from here as he was getting ready for a sub, and that was true to an extent.
My old Kung Fu brain was ticking over and I said well I can jam and elbow into your groin or go for the grab - it was a target.
He could do some nasty things also but if I get that first shot I would have thought most people are going to have trouble trying to finish a technique in this type of pain. I figure im on the bottom and have nothing to lose so its a target.
The other thing I have heard them say is that its a desparate move, I would have thought its just a logical one (self defence flavour).
I just feel sometimes with the BJJ people they get lazy and think no one is going to go for that stuff
Thoughts??[/QUOTE]
I would be happy to trade the ability to slam down punches and elbows into the opponent’s face while his other hand is occupied while going for the groin. He’s going to be KTFO and bleeding profusely before he has a chance to get much of a grip.
Here’s an old clip of Rorion Gracie choking out a guy who tries to go for the groin. The guy was lucky Rorion decided not to smash on his face, but went for the choke instead.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1219342]Kung Fu, at least how I was taught, teaches you to look for opportunity anywhere and work outside the box when needed. I don’t know if it’s about “being lazy”, but many people don’t learn to think this way. They work only from their catalog of techniques.
I think Kung Fu’s adaptability and attacking from unorthodox or compromised angles or positions is a strength.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much any BJJ instructor has had hoards of guys from TMA’s over the years attempt miscellaneous groin grabs, pinches, finger breaks, and nerve/pressure point applications during sparring or challenge matches. The reason they tell you these things don’t work is because they’ve had scores of guys try these things over the years and they know from experience what works and what doesn’t work.
Here’s the difference between BJJ and kung fu. Kung fu teaches you to look outside the box when you can’t figure out the solution to a situation. BJJ teaches you to figure out the solution to every situation long before you get into that situation.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1219355]Pretty much any BJJ instructor has had hoards of guys from TMA’s over the years attempt miscellaneous groin grabs, pinches, finger breaks, and nerve/pressure point applications. The reason they tell you these things don’t work is because they’ve had scores of guys try these things over the years and they know from experience what works and what doesn’t work.[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t really speaking to any particular technique, just generalizing. I wouldn’t attempt a groin grab while mounted. If I saw an opportunity to strike before bucking and tying up I might take it though.
There’s so many opportunities to strike while rolling. Of course you can do this in MMA, but in straight BJJ it seems like it tends to goes unnoticed due to the preoccupation with the sub. Don’t get me wrong, I think practicing that way is great for honing your ground skills, but you need to be aware of the striking opportunities and should use them while rolling sometimes, if your not.
I think things like putting pressure on the solar plexus, chest, throat ect, with your elbow, pushing on the face, grinding with the forearm…(dirty grappling) when in the guard, may be underutilized as well.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1219358]
There’s so many opportunities to strike while rolling. Of course you can do this in MMA, but in straight BJJ it seems like it tends to goes unnoticed due to the preoccupation with the sub. Don’t get me wrong, I think practicing that way is great for honing your ground skills, but you need to be aware of the striking opportunities and should use them while rolling sometimes, if your not.[/QUOTE]
Same goes for biting and utilizing weapons. The only way to find out which ones work is to actually train them, not theorize about them.
I think things like putting pressure on the solar plexus, chest, throat ect, with your elbow, pushing on the face, grinding with the forearm…(dirty grappling) when in the guard, may be underutilized as well.
Same things about training with striking and biting and weapons applies here. Train to put pressure on the face while taking biting into account and you’ll get a whole different perspective.
I was mounted in a real fight about a decade ago. It was a dumb mistake that got me there and the guy had about 30 pounds on me. He wasn’t in enough control to posture up yet, I grabbed his adams apple and squeezed and pulled, he reacted and I got the sweep and ended up in his guard, pulled out and backed off and got em cold while he was trying to get up. I may have been able to defend for awhile but I didn’t wanna be on the ground at all. It’s not something I would teach, but it worked for me that day.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1219361]Same goes for biting and utilizing weapons. The only way to find out which ones work is to actually train them, not theorize about them.
[/QUOTE]
This is true…of course there’s the practicality thing about training with biting…I try to take for granted that biting will work and be aware I don’t get my fingers in a position where they could be bitten. (Even though I’m in no danger of being bit while rolling.) I also try to never be in a position where biting is my only resort.
I know a guy who got into a lot of bar fights when he was young; he wasn’t trained just got into a lot of street fights. He got into a brawl with a Karate guy, was getting kicked in the head and beat bad. For some stupid reason the Karate guy fish hooked him. He bit the meat clean off his finger; down to the bone.
He told me the guy could have still beat him, but he freaked out and ran. Couldn’t take the psychological aspect of having his finger bitten off.
I think your right about weapons. They need to be trained realistically, the same as empty hand. If you think you can fight with a broom handle because you do a nice staff form, it will probably end the same as you thinking you can fight empty handed because you punch in the air a lot…
[QUOTE=Blacktiger;1219333]Ok so been doing some BJJ of late which has been great, really enjoying it.
Something came up in last nights class.
Teacher had me in mount and said there is not much you can do from here as he was getting ready for a sub, and that was true to an extent.
My old Kung Fu brain was ticking over and I said well I can jam and elbow into your groin or go for the grab - it was a target.
He could do some nasty things also but if I get that first shot I would have thought most people are going to have trouble trying to finish a technique in this type of pain. I figure im on the bottom and have nothing to lose so its a target.
The other thing I have heard them say is that its a desparate move, I would have thought its just a logical one (self defence flavour).
I just feel sometimes with the BJJ people they get lazy and think no one is going to go for that stuff
Thoughts??[/QUOTE]
they are lazy because they are in a sports environment and are thinking about sports techniques which are allowed under the rules they compete in as opposed to illegal techniques that aren’t allowed???..really how man years have you been doing BJJ again?
simple answer is ask the teacher to allow you to roll with all techniques and strikes allowed and then try your move and see how it goes…of course he probably wont be as nice as rto go for a sub from mount but feed you your teach from high mount which negates the goin attack, or will take oyur eyes out whilst in a low smothering mount which doesnt allow you to hit the groin easily
Oh it is a desperation move because even if you hit the target chances are he will stay on top of you and not fall off (adrenaline is a funny thing like that) so he will still be on top of you, and is now really p*ssed at you and angry and not playing by any rules hat so ever
[QUOTE=Frost;1219655]to be honest getting your arm broken is the least of your worries…getting yourself blinded would be my concern lol[/QUOTE]
The guy who can adjust better will always have the advantage, because one is chasing and one is leading, the better adjuster will always be ahead of the other guy.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1219658]The guy who can adjust better will always have the advantage, because one is chasing and one is leading, the better adjuster will always be ahead of the other guy.[/QUOTE]
Sometimes you are just fucked. That’s life. Every position has a defense of sorts, but not every situation has a way out.