A famous Japanese student of master Su Yu Zhang wrote a book called SECRET DOOR PM. The book teaches Beng Bu and says it was from Secret Door master Zhang De Kuei. Later, my teacher asked Master Zhang and he said that is impossible, I don’t know that form.
So, do any of Master Su’s students know where that version of the form came from?
the japanese guy’s books
Hi Tainan,
Actually, that Japanese guy wrote several books on Secret Door, i’m not sure if i got the Beng Bu one. All my books and tapes are in Taiwan right now. I do have several others all in Chinese and one from HK on Beng Bu.
Anyway, the other books he wrote with pictures, have everything EXACTLY as i learned them. Maybe that helps, although who knows which series of people came through? I’d like to know myself.
Are you aware of the non-commercial societies? I don’t think the practicioners think of themselves as secret societies, but with martial arts and chinese culture being what they are the result is the same. By non-commercial i mean exactly that, not open to the public, no tuition fees, large groups, but based on the old kungfu family system.
Did Zhou Gao Shan ask you if you had any questions when you saw him? If he does take advantage of it.
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Do you ever watch the northern mantis society instructional series on Taiwan tv? every night 1 hour or one half… i taped it for a long time on my vcr. they play instructional tapes, very ,very good, all kinds of mantis and even baji - (3 different forms iincluding small and big baji.) For fun i learned their version of bengbu. It was so easy to learn off the tape with the repeats, slo-mo, clear movements. Fun to play too!
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I have some problem about the bengbu name, there are 2 different characters to represent beng. or peng and what with all the styles, i am not even sure they are the same form.
Dear Tainan Mantis:
My laoshi, Tony Yang (Xiao-dong) wll be in Taipei, Taiwan next week for his sister-in-law’s funeral service. I am sure he will be around for a couple of days reconnecting with some of his kung fu brothers. If you get a chance, you might want to ask him about the beng bu form. He was with Master Su for a very long time and praying mantis was his first love (then baji).
He says that Master Su is a praying mantis genius.
In my younger years, I learned praying mantis but now only watch it. In beng bu there were either 2 or 3 levels of beng bu.
Stumblefist:
I now have Taiwan TV (3 channels and one is religious). I am curious, who is playing on the baji portions? I watched a film from Taiwan (done in the 1970s) where they played (Tony and other kungfu brothers) all the major forms of baji, the kun wu two man fight, lan jie, mizong II, da fan se, a six harmony form while singers, in the background, sang the baji song. It wouldn’t be a rebroadcast of that tape, would it?
Its a great clip to have if you can tape it.
Mimen
Hi Stumblefist,
I have seen every book that Japanese fellow wrote(I think) and have not seen any other with a form saying it is Secret Door. Maybe you meant another version of PM?
Sometimes Master Zhou comes to my uni to watch a class of his students. I think it is some sort of test. Next time he comes I’ll see if I can’t talk to him.
Did you say PM on TV every night? I can’t imagine that I would have missed that for the last 12 years. I’ve heard that every once in a while they have a special. Also I know they did a weekly program many years ago. I’ve bought some of those tapes from Panther.
Do you know what style their version of Beng Bu was?
RAF:
I won’t be able to make it to Taipei as it is far. And I doubt he’ll be coming to Taiwan. Unless it is with master Su. Every once in a while I’ll hear that he was here in Tainan but just left. Maybe one day I’ll meet him.
Song Tian Long Zi
The Japanese guy that Tainan Mantis mentioned is Song Tian Long Zi (Mandarin pronunciation for his Japanese name). He learned from a number of teachers in Taiwan, including Su Yu-Zhang. Apparently, he was also introduced to Master Liu Yun-Qiao and Master Zhang De-Kui while he was on the island.
Song Tian Long Zi also co-wrote a semi-fictional Japanese manga (comic book) series entitled “Kenji” (Mandarin: “Quan Er”) which depicts a young boy learning Bajiquan from his grandfather. Eventually, Kenji (the protagonist in the comic book) travels to Taiwan and Mainland China and encounters several well-known martial art exponents, such as Su Yu-Zhang, Master Liu Yun-Qiao, Master Zhang De-Kui, Chen Xiao-Wang, etc.
I’ve heard that orginally Meihua Tanglangquan did not have the Beng-bu routine in their curriculum. Perhaps it came from Qixing Tanglang and was later added to the Meihua curriculum. This is just a theory. I do know that Li Kun-Shan did not teach Beng-bu. That probably explains why Zhang De-Kui did not teach Beng-bu, since although of a different lineage, Zhang De-Kui also taught Meihua Tanglang until some of his students changed the name “Mimen Tanglang” to distiguish it from other tanglang styles. Nowadays most tanglang styles have Beng-bu included in their curriculum.
The martial arts instructional programs that you see on Taiwan cable TV (di si tai) are probably the ones produced by Wei Zi-Yun. Wei was an actor who appeared in a number of Taiwanese kung-fu movies and TV programs. During the mid-90’s, he produced a series of martial arts instructional video tapes. A couple series has Zhou Bao-Fu demonstrating tanglang forms, such as Meihua Lu. From what I’ve seen, the Meihua Lu Zhou Bao-Fu demonstrates is of Hongkong Qixing Tanglang origin. Regarding Meihua Lu routine, before the Taiwan government allowed travel to Mainland China, several tanglang exponents from Taiwan and Hongkong exchanged skills. That is probably how Meihua Lu got disseminated among Taiwan tanglang practitioners. Moreover, Huang Han-Xun (Wong Hon-Fun) books on Qixing Tanglang were readily available in Taiwan. There is another version of Meihua Lu that was taught by Li Kun-Shan and Li Deng-Wu which more closely resembles the Meihua Lu that is practiced in Korea and Shandong.
By the way, Tainan Mantis, are you living in Taiwan right now? I have an American friend training with Shi Zheng-Zhong in Tainan. My friend’s Chinese name is Chen Bo-Lun, if you ever see him, please give him my regards. Thanks!
Sitnam have you been to Taiwan?
I thought I was the only person who new his name in Chinese. I’ve heard his Japanese name from Americans but couldn’t remember it.
I read that comic in Chinese. It was the best comic book I ever read, they should make it into a movie.
I asked my Shr-fu, Shr Zheng Zhong, and he said that Li Kun Shan of Plum Flower PM did not teach Beng Bu. In it’s place there is a Beng Bu form known as Lai Yang Beng Bu. Doesn,t look much like the 7 Star version.
Sitnam, I do live in Taiwan and do see Josh. Have you trained with him?
I was surprised to hear you know so much about the goings on in Taiwan. Have you visited here before?
Taiwan
Yes, I lived in Taiwan from 1980-1992 and then again from 1994-1997. On the other hand, I’ve only been to Tainan (Kaoshiung) only once during the whole time I was on the island.
By the way, how is J.C. doing? The last time I saw him was when he visited Seattle last January. Are you J.C.'s shi-xiong or shi-di? J.C. told me that he was also training with another long-time American student of Shi Zheng-Zhong. Anyway, I like the Mimen tanglang shou-fa drills that J.C. showed me while he was here. I’d like to learn more of that.
I’ve never met Shi Zheng-Zhong, but I’ve seen a few of his students training at the Chinese Culture University’s Kuoshu Department. I am, however, acquainted with Shi Zheng Zhong’s friend, Yang Feng-Shi.
Quan Er was all right, although it was too Bajiquan oriented. It is a good comic book that showcases much of the Chinese fighting arts.
How’s the new Taiwan martial arts magazine, “Taiwan Wu Lin”? I would like to get a hold of that magazine to see what kind of stuff they have on it.
I got a few questions for you, does Mimen Tanglang include Hei Hu Chu Dong in their curriculum? I thought this was originally a Qixing Tanglang routine.
Also, when I saw J.C. perform Qishou Quan, the shen-fa for the routine was rather different from that of Babu practitioners whom I’ve seen in Taipei; e.g., Zuo Xian-Fu and Peng Han-Ping. Did Shi Zheng-Zhong learn this routine from Wei Xiao-Tang?
Hen gao-xing neng ren-shi ni. Yi hou wo men ke yi yong e-mail jiao tan. Qing gen J.C. shuo ta de hao peng you “Gloria” yao zai 12-yue zai Tainan ju-ban jie-hun dian li. Xi wang J.C. neng gen Gloria lian-luo. Hao ba… Yi hou zai tan.
J.E.
JC is fine
He is my Shr di. I’ve been there since 1989 while he has been there not quite 2 years.
The American student he was reffering to is John Scolaro who now has a school in Tampa. Our teacher will be going there in March for a seminar.
As far as the drills are concerned I’m under the impression that they are never ending. I have 25 pages of drills. Not including the 2 man forms which also have drills that are often different or a type of bien hwa from the 2 man form.
Taiwan Wu Lin magazine.
My wife got me a subscription when they started up. A lot of stuff is written by masters I’ve heard of, and is well written. Very high brow scholarly stuff.
Then they went out of business, didn’t send my issues, and restarted again. Of course we didn’t have the receipt so she had to pay again so I could get more issues.
My gripe is not enuf PM. Although one issue has a books worth of PM writing that I’ve never seen anywhere. It is from the Lohan PM branch pre-ww2.
Mimen curriculum, I have verified from my teacher several times.
-lan jie
-Dzai Yao 1-7
-8 elbows 1-4
-basics
-2 person drills
Some people have taken other styles’ forms and called it mimen. This is related to this thread’s question.
I have just gotten permission to re-edit and publish teacher’s lan jie book. Most of the pics are Zhang De Kuei.
When my teacher met master Wei it was to learn the Dzai Yao forms. As my teacher relates the story, Master Wei said," You’ve already learned Dzai Yao of so many styles why learn more?"
We are talking well over 20 Dzai Yao forms.
So my teacher didn’t learn his Dzai Yao but did learn some of the other 8 step forms. Most notable are 7 hands and lipi.
If you’ve seen master Wei do Dzai Yao you can tell that the flavor is hugely different from my teacher. My teacher is more of a cross between plum flower and mimen.
But we can only see master Wei when he was old. How did he look when he was young? From seeing a tape of Wang Jia , Wei’s early student , I noticed that he did his punch just like my teacher. So now I wonder if the majority of Wei’s students have the mature Wei flavor and not the young Wei flavor. I suppose I’ll never know.
Yong e-mail tan hwa, mei wen ti.
Teacher Zhou
I took a hit from the sons of the dragon. Got my backback stolen off the hard sleeper on the way to western hubei, near wudang. Fortunately they mostly only got clothes. Fortunately, my valuables and notebooks including 15000 yuan cash were in in one of the 2 other (old) bags. Hey! the largest denomination bill in China is 100 yuan, it’s hard to hide a large sum.
It’s winter now and finding a pair of decent looking pants to fit me in China, quite depressing.
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TM, Zhou Gao Shan lives in the mountains about 80 km east of a city to the north of you. He is a farmer. He operates a Longyan fuit farm. He has “students” or associate clubs in many universities and senior tech schools and colleges in every city in Southern Taiwan and some in the middle and in Taibei and associate orgs and graduates all over the island. At that university their “coach” is really their teacher under THE teacher. They consider the disciples his “real” students. He is the head of a kungfu family. There are no fees and there are no tests. It is like a brotherhood. Of course if he shows up, they would be quite excited eager to show their progress and let him see their practice.
All progress in those groups is automatic, Your rank is your year of joining. If you do the exercise, you automatically advance. Teaching is done on the wave system. Within this there are variations of course, for instance a team captian or someone talented may learn more but it is all within the same contextual program and everyone passes through a HQ (leadership)stage.
But then again they are mostly the same age, pre-selected by culture and rigorous university testing. i.e. all the same cut the same.
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Some of the coaches are prejudiced and don’t want outsiders, let alone foreigners. They are also kings in their own empires. Teacher Zhou is different, he’s rather enlightened, but he can’t ride rein on the taiwanese culture. Imagine as the realtionship between a CEO and his managers.Also better to befriend a relative younger brother as taiwanese translator rather than a coach as the higher up they are the more political they are.
I’m sure Teacher Zhou can answer many arcane questions.
Some of the coaches have said that bringing in foreigners will bring in other foreigners who will challenge or “disturb” the students. (Yeah!).
Talk again later.
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Sitnam: Ruguo yige yisi you liange zi bijiao hao nin xiexia tamende pinyin yiqi, dui bu dui? zheyang shi bijiao haokan ma? 
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Do you have some relation to Bernardo? I can’t raise mantis cave (on a restricted server). Also i can’t get that url about which chinese character as it is also on a restricted server. Can you paste the relevent info or send it to me? Thanx.