A couple of clips for those who think people’s heads explode as soon as gloves are removed:
No death. No broken faces. Just a few cuts.
What’s the problem with sparring bare handed?
Pummelhead sportfighting without protective gear is nothing new and will be around for some time to come, just like rockwall mountain climbing without any ropes or gear to speak of. Less allowance for “**** happenings”.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286072]No death. No broken faces. Just a few cuts.
What’s the problem with sparring bare handed?[/QUOTE]
You can drive a car without seat belt and air bag. If you don’t have car accident, there will be “no death, no broken faces, not even cuts”.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286072]No death. No broken faces.[/QUOTE]
No guy b. No Ving Tsun.
Its also not sparring or training its fighting, want to know how those guys train, ill give you a hint the irish lads hit the local boxing gym and train with, gasp gloves, some of them even have good amateur records
So to reiterate what LFJ said and to add to it, no guy b, no Ving Tsun and no training clips just fights
Please show standard training clips from your club with guys going at it hard every week with no gloves on, until then shut up and stop trolling
[QUOTE=Frost;1286088]Its also not sparring or training its fighting, want to know how those guys train, ill give you a hint the irish lads hit the local boxing gym and train with, gasp gloves, some of them even have good amateur records[/QUOTE]
Lol you weren’t paying much attention were you?
[QUOTE=LFJ;1286087]No guy b. No Ving Tsun.[/QUOTE]
Results of no glove fighting demonstrated. Tick. No exploded heads. Tick.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1286082]You can drive a car without seat belt and air bag. If you don’t have car accident, there will be “no death, no broken faces, not even cuts”.[/QUOTE]
Car accident happened. Result equals no exploded head
You can most definitely fight bare knuckle on a regular basis.
You shouldn’t of course BUT some bare knuckle fighting ( testing is not a bad idea).
You can most definitely train bare knuckle on a regular basis.
You shouldn’t (for obvious reasons) nor do you have to.
Honestly, we dispelled the myth of the “full contact bare knuckle trainer VS the trainer with protective gear” decades ago.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1286109]You can most definitely fight bare knuckle on a regular basis.
some bare knuckle fighting ( testing is not a bad idea).
You can most definitely train bare knuckle on a regular basis[/QUOTE]
Correct. Glad someone is able to see reason
You shouldn’t (for obvious reasons) nor do you have to.
Honestly, we dispelled the myth of the “full contact bare knuckle trainer VS the trainer with protective gear” decades ago.
I disagree, because bare knuckle is intrinsically different to gloved and it pays to be familiar with it since it is what you will be doing in an actual fight. You have some bare knuckle karate background, yes?
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286115]Correct. Glad someone is able to see reason
I disagree, because bare knuckle is intrinsically different to gloved and it pays to be familiar with it since it is what you will be doing in an actual fight. You have some bare knuckle karate background, yes?[/QUOTE]
Kyokushin, yes and also Vale tudo when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled.
Honestly, in over 35 years of MA training I have never TRAINED/SPARRED bare knuckle with head shots.
Have always used gloves OR protective face gear.
I don’t see a value in training bear knuckle face shots.
Testing yes, but daily training? Nope.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1286116]Kyokushin, yes and also Vale tudo when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled.
Honestly, in over 35 years of MA training I have never TRAINED/SPARRED bare knuckle with head shots.
Have always used gloves OR protective face gear.
I don’t see a value in training bear knuckle face shots.
Testing yes, but daily training? Nope.[/QUOTE]
Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1286116]In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled[/QUOTE]
Did you train body shots bare knuckled? i.e. did you train for the reality of kyokushin competition?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1286116]Kyokushin, yes and also Vale tudo when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled.
Honestly, in over 35 years of MA training I have never TRAINED/SPARRED bare knuckle with head shots.
Have always used gloves OR protective face gear.
I don’t see a value in training bear knuckle face shots.
Testing yes, but daily training? Nope.[/QUOTE]
I agree testing yes, daily trading? No. As a fighter, you really should wade in to take a hit once in a while Its good to know how touchy your own chin is.
In both of those clips one or the other fighter has hands wrapped or wears light gloves. A technicality perhaps, but still …
As I think I said on the other thread, I believe some bare handed training is beneficial. Much of the M Kurth video guy b lambasted is barehanded training. I personally don’t think bare knuckle head shots are a good idea for pitcher or catcher. I guess guy b and I differ on that, as we do on the philosophy and costs of dental treatment. He’s just going to have to live with that.
Guy B didn’t advocate full power head shots on a daily basis. He did advocate working up to short doses of it, perhaps on some sort of periodization methodology or seasonal basis. I may have misquoted him here. Will I be sorry if he calls me out on that? Unlikely.
I think where most of us disagree with him is on his contention that the use of gloves and other similar equipment is necessarily a mortal sin and road to mediocrity. There are more than a few Wing Chun guys I know personally who have successfully dodged that particular bullet (if it is a bullet and not in fact a blank). Not to mention other stylists.
Just because a few guys fight bareknuckle on youtube does not mean it is the best or only way to train or spar. And nothing is shown about how they use or don’t use protective gear in training. These clips show it is possible to have prearranged bareknuckle matches without anyone going to hospital. That isn’t an argument that mimicking them is the only or even best way to go.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286130]Did you train body shots bare knuckled? i.e. did you train for the reality of kyokushin competition?[/QUOTE]
Of course and I competed internationally too.
Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?
So, all this ranting about training bare knuckle and you are saying NOT to train bare knuckle with head shots in Wing Chun ???
[QUOTE=anerlich;1286135]In both of those clips one or the other fighter has hands wrapped or wears light gloves. A technicality perhaps, but still …
As I think I said on the other thread, I believe some bare handed training is beneficial. Much of the M Kurth video guy b lambasted is barehanded training. I personally don’t think bare knuckle head shots are a good idea for pitcher or catcher. I guess guy b and I differ on that, as we do on the philosophy and costs of dental treatment. He’s just going to have to live with that.
Guy B didn’t advocate full power head shots on a daily basis. He did advocate working up to short doses of it, perhaps on some sort of periodization methodology or seasonal basis. I may have misquoted him here. Will I be sorry if he calls me out on that? Unlikely.
I think where most of us disagree with him is on his contention that the use of gloves and other similar equipment is necessarily a mortal sin and road to mediocrity. There are more than a few Wing Chun guys I know personally who have successfully dodged that particular bullet (if it is a bullet and not in fact a blank). Not to mention other stylists.
Just because a few guys fight bareknuckle on youtube does not mean it is the best or only way to train or spar. And nothing is shown about how they use or don’t use protective gear in training. These clips show it is possible to have prearranged bareknuckle matches without anyone going to hospital. That isn’t an argument that mimicking them is the only or even best way to go.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, we have had the “train super hard core to be a real fighter” BS dismissed years ago and sure every so often it rares its uneducated ugly head BUT this is silly.
In the early years of MMA ( when it was vale tudo) there were many hard core bare knuckle fighters that fought and they fought VS guys that trained with protective gear and we all know what happened.
The reality is that why some bare knuckle testing is benefit to a MA, training bare knuckles on a regular basis is not.
What you end up with is too many injuries ( and time off because of it) and people instinctively “holding back”.
Lets remember one thing also, there is NO HISTORY in WC ( or any other TCMA) of actually TRAINING full contact FIGHTING with bare knuckles.
If there is any, please show me.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1286145]Honestly, we have had the “train super hard core to be a real fighter” BS dismissed years ago and sure every so often it rares its uneducated ugly head BUT this is silly.
In the early years of MMA ( when it was vale tudo) there were many hard core bare knuckle fighters that fought and they fought VS guys that trained with protective gear and we all know what happened.
The reality is that why some bare knuckle testing is benefit to a MA, training bare knuckles on a regular basis is not.
What you end up with is too many injuries ( and time off because of it) and people instinctively “holding back”.
Lets remember one thing also, there is NO HISTORY in WC ( or any other TCMA) of actually TRAINING full contact FIGHTING with bare knuckles.
If there is any, please show me.[/QUOTE]
What he said, if you spar without gloves only one of three things happens
- People stop training at the club because risk isnt worth reward
- You cut out headshots because it hurts and is too dangerous, so you end up with unrealistic body shot only training
- You become gun shy as people hold back as they dont want to get hit hard in return so you end up with those slap happy sparring clips like jerrys and the vast majority of southern hand clips we see out there with unrealistic techniques and bad body positions
We have all seen over the years clips of 2 and 3 on this forum, we have yet to see a good clip of wing chun bare hand sparring which isnt unrealistic,
I completed in a traditional chinese bare hand sparring comp back in the early 2000s the training was all controlled and technique was lovely because no one wanted to get hurt going at it without gloves, come the national comp (which was meant to be controlled contact) all technique went out the window the first time I got smashed in the face with a bare hand punch at full power,
The irony was we were seniors of the main school in the country, we had been entered into the competition because the previous years no gloved sparring had in the words of out master not been technical enough, we were there to show the way,LMAO
What I learned was that sparring without gloves doesnt prepare you for fighting without gloves, contact sparring prepares you for contact no matter what the context