We all have war stories about what happens when you train bare knuckle.
I have a few minor scars ( than goodness for the boxing back ground before I did Kyokushin) BUT I have vivid images in my mind of far worse.
One guy has his lower lip totally ripped open, you could see his teeth even though his mouth was closed. He needed some serious stitches of course.
Cut eyebrows, cheeks, all very common when bare knuckles hit faces with hard contact.
Busted noses are a given gloved or no gloves so…
But what I noticed the most was the chipped or broken teeth and the cuts ( faces and hands of course).
Also, the level of contact ended up being far less than when you use protective gear.
People just didn’t hit that hard in training when they were bare handed.
Then I got into the Daidojuku and the “space helmet” and we thought, “great now we can go full contact and bare handed and NOT have our faces look like crap”
Of course the issue with those helmets is that they are freaking hard ( nothing a good conditioned hand can’t take of course" BUT they tended to transfer impact in a weird way AND you ended up slugging unrealistically.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1286149]We all have war stories about what happens when you train bare knuckle.
I have a few minor scars ( than goodness for the boxing back ground before I did Kyokushin) BUT I have vivid images in my mind of far worse.
One guy has his lower lip totally ripped open, you could see his teeth even though his mouth was closed. He needed some serious stitches of course.
Cut eyebrows, cheeks, all very common when bare knuckles hit faces with hard contact.
Busted noses are a given gloved or no gloves so…
But what I noticed the most was the chipped or broken teeth and the cuts ( faces and hands of course).
Also, the level of contact ended up being far less than when you use protective gear.
People just didn’t hit that hard in training when they were bare handed.
Then I got into the Daidojuku and the “space helmet” and we thought, “great now we can go full contact and bare handed and NOT have our faces look like crap”
Of course the issue with those helmets is that they are freaking hard ( nothing a good conditioned hand can’t take of course" BUT they tended to transfer impact in a weird way AND you ended up slugging unrealistically.[/QUOTE]
The helmets are worse than gloves for targetting problems and defence/movement problems. Also as you say they encourage very unrealistic puching and can be seriously bad for your health with regards to head trauma.
Level of unrestrained contact is less bare handed because if not you will break your hands. It is possible to throw hard if you throw accurately, but for that you need a different platform than what gloved sparring gives you. Interesting and good to know. Movement and targetting very different. Hitting style has to be different if you want to win.
[QUOTE=Frost;1286146]What he said, if you spar without gloves only one of three things happens
People stop training at the club because risk isnt worth reward
You cut out headshots because it hurts and is too dangerous, so you end up with unrealistic body shot only training
You become gun shy as people hold back as they dont want to get hit hard in return so you end up with those slap happy sparring clips like jerrys and the vast majority of southern hand clips we see out there with unrealistic techniques and bad body positions[/QUOTE]
What’s realistic about throwing punches as if you are wearing gloves and immediately breaking your fragile glassy little hands on someone’s head? That is the opposite of realistic and the opposite of useful training.
Ramping contact level without gloves is far more realistic in terms of the actual activity you are training for- i.e. fighting without gloves. Unless you plan to wear gloves 24/7. Specificity is important in athletic training. Fighting is no different.
What I learned was that sparring without gloves doesnt prepare you for fighting without gloves, contact sparring prepares you for contact no matter what the context
It is the fault of nobody but you if you were too soft to ramp the level of contact appropriately. Training with gloves only teaches you to miss and have poor timing without gloves. It also virtually grarantees broken hands. Broken hands lose fights.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286157]You are lying. Quote me please[/QUOTE]
Here you go:
08-11-2015, 12:34 PM #61 guy b. guy b. is offline
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Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
Let’s see your bare handed training then. I’m interested in how hard you’re getting punched in the face with bare knuckles…
Full contact
LFJ asked:
I’m interested in how hard you’re getting punched in the face with bare knuckles…
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286115]Correct. Glad someone is able to see reason
…I disagree, because bare knuckle is intrinsically different to gloved and it pays to be familiar with it since it is what you will be doing in an actual fight. ?[/QUOTE]
Is this based on your personal experience or an assumption from what others do? how often do you train and spar without gloves at full contact?
What I see/hear is you posting clips of others and asking what others do, but what do you do? (cause you seem to bounce around a lot on that part)
If want people to ‘see reason’, and if you are sparring regularly without gloves as you imply (and apparently at full contact), it would only be reasonable to ask you to film your next training session and show what you mean vs. posting up clips or others and trying to go off of what everyone else does… shouldn’t be too difficult or unreasonable for you
Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?
His answer (and your defense of it) are non sequiurs in relation to the question.
Contact level is full contact. Ok. How does this relate to the question of who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots? It doesn’t. In any way. There is zero mention of frequency of that intensity of training.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1286174]Is this based on your personal experience or an assumption from what others do? how often do you train and spar without gloves at full contact?[/QUOTE]
It is based on personal experience and the experience of others I train with.
I spar without gloves at full contact as often as I can manage, which is about once per fortnight at the moment. I have done more and I have done less. Obviously I train reduced intensity much more frequently.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286178]It is based on personal experience and the experience of others I train with.
I spar without gloves at full contact as often as I can manage, which is about once per fortnight at the moment. I have done more and I have done less. Obviously I train reduced intensity much more frequently.[/QUOTE]
So what you’re saying is, you get into actual bare-knuckle all-out fist fights with your training partners every ‘fortnight’. Heh, ok.
Then I’ll repeat (Since you somehow missed a good portion of my post in your reply)
[I]"If want people to ‘see reason’, and if you are sparring regularly without gloves as you imply (and apparently at full contact), it would only be reasonable to ask you to film your next training session and show what you mean vs. posting up clips or others and trying to go off of what everyone else does… shouldn’t be too difficult or unreasonable for you
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1286182]So what you’re saying is, you get into actual bare-knuckle all-out fist fights with your training partners every ‘fortnight’.[/QUOTE]
Yes of course. What is difficult to understand about this fact?
Then I’ll repeat it would only be reasonable to ask you to film your next training session
The last time I got involved with bare knuckle fighting was up north BC(2012). It is not uncommon to test mettle and solve small disputes with honest fist fighting that rarely goes too far. In fact,more than a couple of buds carry a mouth guard at all times for just such occasions. It can be invigorating even at my age, and I can’t get any uglier. I’m not really talking about bar fights either. That’s how they roll in northern Canada.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286177]the quote Jimbo was responding to was this:
His answer (and your defense of it) are non sequiurs in relation to the question.
Contact level is full contact. Ok. How does this relate to the question of who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots? It doesn’t. In any way. There is zero mention of frequency of that intensity of training.[/QUOTE]
First off, it was not “non-sequitur” because you were asked a direct question by LFJ:
Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
Let’s see your bare handed training then. I’m interested in how hard you’re getting punched in the face with bare knuckles.
..
To which you replied directly:
Full contact
So.
But what we are finally getting to is this:
You occasionally ( fortnight by your own words) train bare knuckle sparring that may or may not include face shots.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1286196]You fortnightly train bare knuckle sparring that may or may not include face shots[/QUOTE]
I fortnightly train bare knuckle including face shots. I train reduced contact bare knuckle much more frequently. I rarely train with gloves any more because it is detrimental.
I don’t think my body could handle regular NHB contact. What has worked for me is getting involving periodically, when I’m in best health, disposition, no injuries etc, willing to put in the hard attribute traning necessary to come out reasonably safe.. Plus had the time to fully internalize what Iessons learned from the last time. Usually these periods are between 5 and ten years apart.Fortune provides opportunities when the time is right. I often work in security, so occasionally (rarely) physical combat is required but VT is not really part of that tool box much.Except for reference and elbow control. Can’t go ’ chuning people in the mall.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1286352]Training without gloves needn’t be no rules. On the contrary it is usually very structured.
Reagrding your body, gloved sparring is generally harder on the body than non-gloved, apart from cuts[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely right Guy.During the hard road to full NHB if you don’t ‘salt your chin’, you won’t show your best when it counts.
