Phenix
>>WC at leat the modern post WW2 emphasis in effective applications instead of the “body” or the art. Thus, the White crane method of Zee Moo or centerline, and Tan Da type one hand “dealling” and one hand "offending was emphasis to an extreme.<<
I think you’re saying too much simplicity can form mechanical movements.
Hi Hendrik- replies in brackets after snips from your post.
In my humble opinion, for sake of discussion.
There are similarity and uniqueness between WC and TC.
Similarity,
Ultimately, one has to arive at FaJing will not shown in appearance.
neutralization and issuing is the same instant.
Difference and uniqueness
WC inherit White Crane Wing Chun from Fujian, Thus, it has the “aroma” of one hand “dealing” and another hand offending.
In additional to Zee Moo concept which becomes air tight.
((I dont recall the Zee Moo. The key is both hands being used
in a balanced mutually reinforcing way. Both can “offend” too.))
Thus, WC is : The Character of Crane is not fighting, Thus, it has the virture of Phoenix. The spiritual drangon will shown only its head, thus, it cannot be detected or predicted.
((True. Things can change in mid path as well))
TC believes in one can fajing everywhere one contact, thus, as one similar to a sphere any point of a sphere is a triangle.
Thus, Taiji is like flowing water of Yang Zee it constant flow and nerver end.
(Water is water. Energy is energy. The analogy can apply to wing chun too))
Pro and Con
WC at leat the modern post WW2 emphasis in effective applications instead of the “body” or the art. Thus, the White crane method of Zee Moo or centerline, and Tan Da type one hand “dealling” and one hand "offending was emphasis to an extreme.
((Why extreme. The body can be cultivated too. I think that you are over-generalizing about wing chunners. They vary))
This extreme of emphasis cost the art to degrading the training of the body. Thus, " the FaJing will not shown and neutralization and issuing is the same instant." The cultivation of this type of power was gradually lost.
((Endangered but not lost IMO))
Good WC people such as sifu Tse Siong-Ting from YM lineage… are experimenting trying to find out and re fomulate about this path of cultivation.
((Good for TST. I have read his writing on the subject. But dont have to reformulate or imitate taiji. The triangle within the sphere
is a well known wing chun concept.))
TC mainly emphasis in “body” cultivation since it was greatly promote as good for health. Practicing it does bring good health to the practitionar around the world.
((Depends on what else is done. Chen Man ching drank and smoked- didnt live that long))
Since the focus is in health and most stuck at the changing of weight training for Fajing level.
Thus, most has difficulties to reach " the FaJing will not shown explicitly; and neutralization and issuing is the same instant."
Thus, When TC people cross hand with WCK people, due to the superiority of the White Crane center line potential. TC peole will have no fight due to the Center line potential dis-integrate the root easily even the WC people doesn’t have internal cultivation.
((Some wing chun folks do have internal cultivation and are not easily uprooted. Depends on who, when, what how))
However, if the WC practitioner meets an advance TC practitioner who has achieved to a certain degree of "wholesome integration and fajing " as so called “peng jing”… WC practitioner will be easily uprooted.
((Sure. Reverse too. Who what where when))
As a summary, generally speaking, TC has steps to cultivate the Jing to advance level. However, fighting application is rare. WC has great application. However, steps and clarity to cultivate fajing is very rare.
((Not a bad summary. Rare but not non existent))
Joy
Re: Phenix
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
[B]>>
I think you’re saying too much simplicity can form mechanical movements. [/B]
That is not I mean.
IMHO, Chinese MA is a multi-dimentional art, the foundation to build these MA are Daoism/ buddhism/TCM type of models.
Since the concept of “body” and application are the core of Chinese development. Thus, it goes extreem when the other side is not covered.
((I dont recall the Zee Moo. The key is both hands being used
in a balanced mutually reinforcing way. Both can “offend” too.))
Zee Moo is the old term for Chong or center. back in 1850 time people uses Zee Moo mostly and Chong less.
Certainly could be Both hand offend or both neutralizing. however, here I am using White Crane’s of FuJian’s “trade mark” DNA to contrast TC and not speak of the extreme case. —HS
TC believes in one can fajing everywhere one contact, thus, as one similar to a sphere any point of a sphere is a triangle.
Thus, Taiji is like flowing water of Yang Zee river it constant flow and nerver end.
(Water is water. Energy is energy. The analogy can apply to wing chun too))
Sure, But this is a sentence describe by Yang family.
Trying to Show the unqueness is the purpose of qouting this statement for in comparision with the WCK. —HS
Pro and Con
WC at leat the modern post WW2 emphasis in effective applications instead of the “body” or the art. Thus, the White crane method of Zee Moo or centerline, and Tan Da type one hand “dealling” and one hand "offending was emphasis to an extreme.
((Why extreme. The body can be cultivated too. I think that you are over-generalizing about wing chunners. They vary))
It is extreme because WCK can be stereo typely seen as only Pak DA and Chain Punch in the 60-70’s. what else beside use this to fight?
It is extreme because very rare WCners talks about internal cultivation. You almost can’t find an article about WCK and body cultivation between 1950 to 1990. and that is 40 years.
40 years fills with article about effective fighting.
likes it or not most of WCK’s power is hard and external and rely on fast hands.
Even a book about WCK qigong in SLT, the medirians and power path are not accord to TCM. Thus, it shows lacks of “body” cultivation.
Eventhough certainly some is different since the above cannot represent the whole WCK. However, Without the components, Cultivation is difficult but not impossible using Trial and erro method. —HS
This extreme of emphasis cost the art to degrading the training of the body. Thus, " the FaJing will not shown and neutralization and issuing is the same instant." The cultivation of this type of power was gradually lost.
((Endangered but not lost IMO))
some hong kong related
Kuen kuit of the three WCK sets are importing TaiJi’s phrases. Those are the facts that WCners has to admit.
So where is WCK’s own? That is a question we all needs to ask ourself honestly. it we claim “not lost.” —HS
Good WC people such as sifu Tse Siong-Ting from YM lineage… are experimenting trying to find out and re fomulate about this path of cultivation.
((Good for TST. I have read his writing on the subject. But dont have to reformulate or imitate taiji. The triangle within the sphere
is a well known wing chun concept.))
TST invent the term “Lap Nim” and " Jang Die Lek" , imho, correct me if I am wrong. And that is very respectable.
On the other hand,
In Randy william’s books, there are all evident of Randy some how get the Kuit of the WCK 3 sets which importing TaiJi’s phrases. IMHO, correct me if I am wrong.
So, wck people was examining into Yee Chuan and Tai Ji in hong kong wass a fact that cannot be deny.
The TRiangle withing the Sphere is introduce by Chen MAn-Ching in his 13 chapter. Before that we don’t see any WCK people write any article about it.
The analogy of Hammer and Nail on fajing was describe in pg 46, if my memory serve, in a Yee Chuan’s book Yau of Yee Chuan. Again before that no evident that WCK describe things this way.
Again, IMHO, correct me if I am wrong. —HS
TC mainly emphasis in “body” cultivation since it was greatly promote as good for health. Practicing it does bring good health to the practitionar around the world.
((Depends on what else is done. Chen Man ching drank and smoked- didnt live that long))
TaiJi is accepted today on its healing capability.
Where have we seen SLT recognized by it’s healing capability. not to mention, even the YJKYM is still not clearly define and changing for past 50years. from clamping the bottle hard to…
Chen Man-Ching’s personal life will not affect the healing capability of TaiJi. —HS
Thus, When TC people cross hand with WCK people, due to the superiority of the White Crane center line potential. TC peole will have no fight due to the Center line potential dis-integrate the root easily even the WC people doesn’t have internal cultivation.
((Some wing chun folks do have internal cultivation and are not easily uprooted. Depends on who, when, what how))
Certainly, some wing chun folks do have internal cultivation, however, how many percents of them, and a question always is where those internal cultivation methodology is from? Yee Chuan? TaiJi? Trial and erro? if it is WCK’s own that uniqueness has to be specificaly shown. and up to now, close to non. —HS
As a summary, generally speaking, TC has steps to cultivate the Jing to advance level. However, fighting application is rare. WC has great application. However, steps and clarity to cultivate fajing is very rare.
((Not a bad summary. Rare but not non existent))
Agree.
Yup. So, I am waiting for WCners to show WCK’s unique internal cultivation.
The answer has to be methodological and implementable and unqiue.
Shao Lin’s best art, Rebel’s best art, Tan Sau’ best Kiu Sau…Qigong… all doesn’t do the job.
Originally posted by Phenix
It is extreme because WCK can be stereo typely seen as only Pak DA and Chain Punch in the 60-70’s. what else beside use this to fight?
It may be insightful to consider the general demographics of the students at the time of their learning, and how this may have impacted both their perspectives and the emphasis of training. Especially the largest groups from Hong Kong and the significant number who went on from there to teach and shape the popular face of Wing Chun today.
TST invent the term “Lap Nim” and " Jang Die Lek" , imho, correct me if I am wrong. And that is very respectable.
We use the term “jahng dai lik” regularly, and apply the concept incessantly. If lop nim is another reference to “nim lik,” I too had heard a rumor that Tsui Sheung Tin invented the phrase. Perhaps this notion arose because he puts an extraordinary emphasis on the concept. My misconception on that was corrected, as Leung Sheung also used the phrase having learned it from Ip Man.
Some people find depth in Wing Chun by seeking outwards. A few have found depth by exploring inward. Some are content with whatever presents itself on their current path, and yet others are unconcerned if there is more substance there or not.
Regards,
The key to good wing chun are the direct competent transmissions.
Wing Chun folks have never been big on developing a literature
as the lierati of the taji crowd have done- after the literati
long after Chen Wan Ting became fascinated with taichi after Yang
spreading it.
Wing Chun literature is a recent event and naturally the literature is therefore uneven- with people borrowing expressions from the familiar existing corpus- taichi, Sun Tzu etc. Borrowing expressions and understanding the content are not the same.
Again in semiotics and interpretation of signs and expressions
the grasp of the intent of the speaker or writer is important.
“My father and I are one” can have one meaning in Christian theology and a different one in Buddhist epistemology. But the words used may be misleadingly the same.
Wing Chun has not become the health fad as taiji in the parks have become. Thanks heavens… the park taichi folks have almost no concept of self defense. But good self defense can be good gor health too and properly taught wing chun points to that.
I hope that the self dfense aspect is never lost in wing chun.Joy
Originally posted by kj
[B]
We use the term “jahng dai lik” regularly, and apply the concept incessantly. If lop nim is another reference to “nim lik,” I too had heard a rumor that Tsui Sheung Tin invented the phrase. Perhaps this notion arose because he puts an extraordinary emphasis on the concept. My misconception on that was corrected, as Leung Sheung also used the phrase having learned it from Ip Man.
Regards,
KJ,
Thanks for the information and correction.
Certainly, these terms are important for describing the cultivation.
Regards
Hendrik
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]
Wing Chun literature is a recent event and naturally the literature is therefore uneven- with people borrowing expressions from the familiar existing corpus- taichi, Sun Tzu etc.
Borrowing expressions and understanding the content are not the same.
Again in semiotics and interpretation of signs and expressions
the grasp of the intent of the speaker or writer is important.
“My father and I are one” can have one meaning in Christian theology and a different one in Buddhist epistemology. But the words used may be misleadingly the same.
[/B]
Joy,
Great.
Hendrik- The current Journal of Asian Martial Arts has the prolific author and ex Taiwanese- Bostonian kung fu master Yang J Ming
on the cover and in the feature article interview. I didnt read the article- at least not yet… but there is an old picture of him
in a standing jong posture that looks remarkably wing chunnish..
in internal cultivation.
You might want to take a look at it.
Yang in an off hand comment once said that wing chun is just a branch of crane- one of those great overgeneralizations.
BTW Leung jan was a TCM person… so are several other wc people even currently.
Somewhat as is the case with taiji—so also with wc-- different folks bite off different parts of the pie…getting it all- few work on it.
Originally posted by Phenix
[BThe TRiangle withing the Sphere is introduce by Chen MAn-Ching in his 13 chapter. Before that we don’t see any WCK people write any article about it.
The analogy of Hammer and Nail on fajing was describe in pg 46, if my memory serve, in a Yee Chuan’s book Yau of Yee Chuan. Again before that no evident that WCK describe things this way.
Again, IMHO, correct me if I am wrong. —HS
[/B]
Triangle within the sphere in TC? I feel like the sphere is within the structure and the triangle is the projection vectors 
Noi and Ngoi?
IMHO (again if memory serve), the Yee Chun h&n is done more with a wave movement from the ground up. My h&n understanding in WC is that the fist(nail) is only a contact point, the mass still comes from the body(hammer). The motion is more like the whole body mass all come at once. Think of the fist being the knuckle of a bigger fist - your whole body.
i think taiqi will help you alot, taiqi has many great throws, if your teacher knows them, and as far as the elbows, what will matter is which one you practice more, and i think wc drills are faster, and develope habit easier, but taiqi relaxation and push hands and rooting, will serve you well, i do bothe as well, and there have been times when while using wc, and being countered, a taiqi circular move saved my butt, and remember, biu gee form has many circular techniques, so i think youll be ok.
Originally posted by yylee
[B]
Triangle within the sphere in TC? I feel like the sphere is within the structure and the triangle is the projection vectors Noi and Ngoi?
IMHO (again if memory serve), the Yee Chun h&n is done more with a wave movement from the ground up. My h&n understanding in WC is that the fist(nail) is only a contact point, the mass still comes from the body(hammer). The motion is more like the whole body mass all come at once. Think of the fist being the knuckle of a bigger fist - your whole body. [/B]
YY,
Read Chen Man-Ching book – the 13 Chapter.
And Yee Chuan book by Yau, Wang’s student. Page 46 I think and see the analogy for yourselve
and find out who uses who’s idea? may be co-incident may be copying without giving credits.
Originally posted by Phenix
[B]
YY,
Read Chen Man-Ching book – the 13 Chapter.
And Yee Chuan book by Yau, Wang’s student. Page 46 I think and see the analogy for yourselve
and find out who uses who’s idea? may be co-incident may be copying without giving credits. [/B]
may be you could email me Yau’s page, it’s been a while. All I remember is this: “the two elbows are like two big nails, the legs suddenly sinks and propel the body forward, the body (rib cage) in turn propels the two elbows forward” I think they also tense up in an explosive fashion for a split second(at least in Hon Sing Kiu’s book it is said this way). Also, these “front hand hit someone, the rear hand FaLik… hitting all rely on the back leg…” are mentioned in Hon’s book. May be all these masters are just copying each other
Anyway, if I remeber right, this YeeKuen method is not what I have in mind for H&N.
My Cheng Man Ching book is long gone in my friend’s pocession, I will try to find a copy later. I do remember some drawings in Cheng’s book, more like polly’s and ropes (I could be totally out on this one 
)
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Hendrik- The current Journal of Asian Martial Arts has the prolific author and ex Taiwanese- Bostonian kung fu master Yang J Ming
on the cover and in the feature article interview. I didnt read the article- at least not yet… but there is an old picture of him
in a standing jong posture that looks remarkably wing chunnish..
in internal cultivation.
You might want to take a look at it.
Yang in an off hand comment once said that wing chun is just a branch of crane- one of those great overgeneralizations.
BTW Leung jan was a TCM person… so are several other wc people even currently.
Somewhat as is the case with taiji—so also with wc-- different folks bite off different parts of the pie…getting it all- few work on it. [/B]
Joy,
Thanks.
Yang obviously, certainly, Truely doesn’t understand WCK, othewise he will not make that comment.
Since he makes that comment
I expect him to go to the details and details… but I have never see him go that details… I am waiting for his view.