Bak Mei stance article - Siu Ting Fun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

These are all senior members of the Guangjau Bak Mei Association, and they are all under or related to Siu Ting Fun. No people from the Hong Kong branch or other branches, just of the particular association. The faces are all there and if you dont know those faces Im certain you wouldnt know the names either.

I have dozens of Bak Mei articles and manuscripts from as far back as there is. Everyone writes articles and posts discussions on the same topics: forms, history, hand techniques… its all old and unimportant news. How many articles are there like this one posted? Physiology and methodology, that is the substance that Bak Mei was built upon and defined by. Ive seen few similar publications but have what has been released. I was going to have more posted similar to this one but as theres no discussion then I assume theres also no interest.

Look at the other threads, just pieces of trivia! But finally an indepth article comes along here and theres no discussion… even though nearly 700 reads! Maybe its just a common sense article and talking about things that everyone knows about anyway, thus no need to discuss it further!

22

Heres where the article was originally posted:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10041

Theres a bit better discussion on it over there. But since there are very few Bak Mei practitioners over there I thought Id bring it over here.

23

Soulfist, not many Pak Mei practitioners here either.

Not sure what you expected. It was a nice article, accurate, well translated.

I told you my Sifu knows and grew up with Sui Ting Fun, which provided you with an opportunity to enquire, if you were interested in engaging.

You sound disappointed, don’t be. Do more than post an article, post your conclusions, or challenges, or questions to provide something to discuss.

As is, the choice is, yea good, naw bad. Its good. Great stuff, love to see more. Its nothing new to me, but expressed nicely. Unless you’re into our stuff, its probably just a bit esoteric.

24

Soulfist my sifu would hit me with a stick if i talk about the BM method. They hope you can learn it but dont care they have enough cousins and uncles to train it. I’m just trying to find the historical link between Foshan, Guangzhou and Hong Kong white eyebrow. I’ll show sifu the article maybe he has something to share. He hates questions though.

25

[QUOTE=diego;1037904]Soulfist my sifu would hit me with a stick if i talk about the BM method. They hope you can learn it but dont care they have enough cousins and uncles to train it. I’m just trying to find the historical link between Foshan, Guangzhou and Hong Kong white eyebrow. I’ll show sifu the article maybe he has something to share. He hates questions though.[/QUOTE]

easy.

CLC started in Guangzhou, first half of life.

Post war, went to HK, last 20 years of life. New school started that brought him back in the world by Nam Ging. Died in '68(?).

Futsan is a branch of Har Hon Hong lineage, but some claim alternative lineage due to political issues, possibly around the HHH lineage. They have a bunch of unique patterns and different theories, that could be it as well.

Vietnam is from early CLC in Guangzhou, Mstr Dang.

After CLC (and HHH along with many others, I’m sure) left Guangzhou for HK with the coming of Mao, a a group of 5th generation remained in Guangzhou and taught as best they could under the threat of drama for practising forbidden old ways.

I’m guessing it was similar in Futsan. I know Futsan and Guangzhou are closer friends than either is with Hong Kong, but there’s no animosity, just stronger family ties.

Yau Yen Wa made a sojurn to Malaysia and returned to Guangzhou, I believe.

26

yet hong kong and guangzhou are alot more alike than fatsan… like how the forms look and whatnot… no???

you mean fatsan and GZ have ties because they are so close, they are litterally family in alot of cases???

i was wondering where the vietnam part came in… i was pretty sure it was from GZ but i didnt have a name… sweet, thanx… more to google:D

27

Hong Kong Bak Mei is Guangjau Bak Mei, same teacher! If you must say there are differences they those differences lie in:

  1. HK practitioners in general stuck to their style and never/seldom ventured beyond. GZ practitioners for the most learned multiple styles and concepts and often had the fighting experiences to see what works.
  2. Jeung Lai Cheun taught in China from 1911-1949, then in HK from 49-64. The raw spirit and force of a young teacher in his prime, vs the refined calm wisdom of a teacher in his later years. Same material more or less but the presentation was different!

Ive learned from 2 teachers of HK and 8 teachers of GZ. I live in HK and interact with both groups regularly. However the HK group is far more political and seem to look down strongly on the GZ group. Regardless I dont view them as 2 different branches as its the same material from the same teacher!

I have no positive comments on what came out of Futshan.

28

In my bm thread one of the articles said the ferocious tiger form ir CLCs baby combing all the bm footwork and mental principles created when he was old..if foshan has this set wouldnt that explain the lineage… Also inside kung fu 1993 or1983 Kwong Man Fong can break a coconut with one strike did james lacy pick that up from hakka?.

29

Mang Fu Chut Lum is Jeung Lai Cheun’s baby? Hardly. Most make that observation based solely upon its ranking in the curriculum. Look at every form in the system, they all look and feel quite similar (obviously)… except Mang Fu Chut Lum. No one explores that issue though, just praise to the upper form.

If JLC had a baby it would be “Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung”! This was conceptualized by Jeung as the consolidation and final stage of Bak Mei’s evolution. As so few have ever seen the form let alone learned it they easily dismiss it and its worth.

Breaking a coconut isnt something you would pick up from a style. I used to learn chopping stones with various parts of the palm from my teacher. From another we would learn how to thread various grades of paper with a flat fist. So is it that one style trains with a focus on coconut force, one trains with a focus on stone force, and one trains with a focus on paper force? No, I dont think so.

30

www.pakmei-uk.com go to “referances” “sifu Yen Chien-Kuang on the white brow style” by Ah Lun He says the highest level is MENG HU CH’U LIN and WU HANG MU. Is five element rubbing hitting chi gong?. These are things I wont ask sifu about until I get into 9 step push..just trying to under stand all of the BM utube videos HK to Foshan. NG HANG MO KIU GUNG what does that mean in English?. Typing on a **** phone it’s tedious to crosscheck while typing lol..

31

I am still wondering why it is called Mang Fu, after 9 steps and 18 frictions I would have expected something with 36. Why does the numerology stop at this form? Regards, Lau

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[QUOTE=Lau;1037938]I am still wondering why it is called Mang Fu, after 9 steps and 18 frictions I would have expected something with 36. Why does the numerology stop at this form? Regards, Lau[/QUOTE]

I feel CLC’s hand in that form. Its different to the other two.

Ng Ying came from Lin Sang? I always pegged it for a 5th generation form, like 6 power or lightening Gau Bo Twi…

33

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1038356]I feel CLC’s hand in that form. Its different to the other two.

In “Secrets of Kungfu vol 20” (1978?) sifu Yen Chien Kuang (student of Cheung Bing Sem ) says that Cheung Lai Chun created Mang Fu Tju Lam towards the end of his live by combining the pugilistic and mental methods of the White Eyebrow Style. So feeling Cheung Lai Chun hands seems no so strange…:wink:

34

Impossible! Jeung Lai Cheun taught Mang Fu Chut Lam to his earliest students, it couldnt have been created at the end of his life. Ha Hon Hung of YKM learned it too and he was one of the earliest students!

Of the 3 pillars of Bak Mei, it is only Gau Bo Tui that resembles the rest of the system. I can see that Sup Baat Moh Kiu is taking the skills, methods, and principles of Bak Mei to a further level, but Mang Fu takes it in another direction completely.

I learned Mang Fu Chut Lam well over a decade ago, and at that time I also learned the lesser known forms Mang Fu Ha Saan (fierce tiger descends the mountain) and Mang Fu Kum Yeung (fierce tiger catches the sheep). They are very similar in all respects but perhaps extensions of Mang Fu Chut Lam. My personal feeling, heavily technique based but offers little in terms of developing and refining the essence of Bak Mei.

Jeung Lai Cheun did create a form though consolidating the theory and methodology of Bak Mei, called “Ng Hang Moh Kiu Gung”. That was considered his unfinished masterpiece, as he never finished it. To me it is in the direction that Sup Baat Moh Kiu goes to, and is even more dissimilar to Mang Fu Chut Lam than the rest!

35

[QUOTE=soulfist;1038620]

Of the 3 pillars of Bak Mei, it is only Gau Bo Tui that resembles the rest of the system. I can see that Sup Baat Moh Kiu is taking the skills, methods, and principles of Bak Mei [/QUOTE]

I tend to group the basic forms and Mang Fu as one group, and Jik Bo, Ng Ying, GBT and SBM in a second.

The first lot, including Mang Fu, are ferocious and practical.

The others are more in depth and intricate in their execution, breathing, etc.

HOWEVER, I believe as you get better, you gain the ability to use the energy from either side within the other…

And THAT is where Mang Fu fits into its own unique place.

Something else I’ve noticed, concerning the forms and the timeline. The forms get progressively more complicated as the generations pass, with each generation adding its own bits, interpretations, and ‘style’. I think its fair to also accept that CLC changed his teaching over the 50 odd years he taught…

Our lineage is early, and forms are more simple than later students/generations versions of the same. As Soulfist mentioned, he knows several versions of Gau Bo Twi and Mang Fu. But apparently, some of the core forms are no longer taught in Hong Kong?

Sei Moon, Sa Mun, Dey Sut, Ying Jau lin Que - are these dropped in HK now?

36

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;1038634]I tend to group the basic forms and Mang Fu as one group, and Jik Bo, Ng Ying, GBT and SBM in a second.

The first lot, including Mang Fu, are ferocious and practical.

The others are more in depth and intricate in their execution, breathing, etc.

HOWEVER, I believe as you get better, you gain the ability to use the energy from either side within the other…

And THAT is where Mang Fu fits into its own unique place.

Something else I’ve noticed, concerning the forms and the timeline. The forms get progressively more complicated as the generations pass, with each generation adding its own bits, interpretations, and ‘style’. I think its fair to also accept that CLC changed his teaching over the 50 odd years he taught…

Our lineage is early, and forms are more simple than later students/generations versions of the same. As Soulfist mentioned, he knows several versions of Gau Bo Twi and Mang Fu. But apparently, some of the core forms are no longer taught in Hong Kong?

Sei Moon, Sa Mun, Dey Sut, Ying Jau lin Que - are these dropped in HK now?[/QUOTE]

just in my school sisook taught me a different sub jee than what sifu showed me…sifu’s is more small power and anatomically correct sisooks is big tiger full of fighting aggression…

is there any pupils that studied with CLC for the full 50 years of his teaching, what do we know about his carreer that’s in newspapers and government records?.

37

[QUOTE=diego;1038716]just in my school sisook taught me a different sub jee than what sifu showed me…sifu’s is more small power and anatomically correct sisooks is big tiger full of fighting aggression…

is there any pupils that studied with CLC for the full 50 years of his teaching, what do we know about his carreer that’s in newspapers and government records?.[/QUOTE]

yea, don’t place too much account in what happens from the elbow to the finger tips, in fact you should be able to vary it. forms vary, some more others less.

There was a little bru ha ha in the middle of CLC’s life called WWII, closely followed by the Chinese revolution. I believe he was practically destitute in HK when he was found by Nam Ging. Don’t know how much continuity there was with the old life. One can guess…

If you want the best research on Pak Mei, visit the Dutch site, they have most articles and magazines, etc. They are meticulous. #1.