Usually right after Jik Bo is taught and is nailed down by the student, Sek Si Sup Jee would be taught in Sigung Cheung Lai Chun’s HK curriculum. My Sifu was from Mainland China he taught them in that order as well. So I suspect that it would be the same in Sigung lineage regardless of location. Sek Si Sup Jee is the form from Sigung’s first Sifu Lum Sek, who taught the Laumen Pai(vagabond Style) kung Fu. The form itself is call Sup Jee, which is a cross patern that is to deal with multiple attacks on the street. It has variety of techniques that is street ready. There are Techniques such as claws, eblows, groin kicks, etc… and concepts like deceitful retreats yet they are follow by returning strike and Ramming to open door. These are things that would be used by a vagabond on the street. To teach a novice in street fighting that is adequate. For lack of a better description it is crude but effective. The addition, or modification if you will, is the Tun To Fao Chum. It is nick named Sek Si to commemorate Sifu Lum Sek, not Stone lion. This show Sigung’s character that he would not hide where his Kung Fu came from.
Dan Ging (I hope I am on the right page here) come from Lung Ying? I would not contest to that theory given that quite a bit of material in the system are from other sources. I do know that the move which FT describe (we might not be talking about the same thing here) is not a drunken step. I am sorry but there is no drunken step in Bak Mei. Romanticize it any which way you want but Bak Mei is never a drunken style. If we are talking the same move, that hop/leap/jump/whatever is a anti-grappling takedown move. You sort of move to the side and bring up the knee which is a knee to his face. The kind of side stepping is to avoid being takedown right on your back, plus add the umph to the knee strike. Worst come to worst, you might fall to the side but not flat on your back. That way, you may be able (if you are on the ground) to have (to borrow the volcab.) side control. The following strike is an attack to the temples of your opponent, not to strike the leg, waist, or torso. You will never get your guy that way! Try those attacks, you will hand your a$$ to him.
Anyway, enough mouth runnig from my part. I just hope that fact and techn’s. should remain clear .
i dont practise dan ging, but i know a bak mei sifu here and he told me about a drunken step/footwork that is in the form. i have seen the form many times, but we dont practise dan ging. there is a drunken kuen in bak mei in guangzhou by the way i have it on video. i have heard that story about sek see kuen thanks for that.
From what it seem to me when ppl. say “original” and the other set mixed in, it is like the other set is still the same as original li ga, dragon, and shek style.
After sigong CLC learned bai mei early on in china most of these other style sets he used were changed fundamentally, to bak mei principles of combat and power generation. Some techniques still look same, but as time went by the great master further and further changed the fundamentals of the set to a point where it does not even look like dragon, li ga or shek style.
Well…actually dragon on initial apperance still look somewhat similar to bak mei. In training it is different.
We don’t say that “Chen Heung” founder of Tsai Li Fo; that original set from Li ga was so and so…and original set from monk Chai Foo was so and so… It is b/c Chen Heung changed the not only techniques but also the priciples of the different styles he learned. This is same with the great master CLC.
I understand that one of CLC teachers was surnamed Li. So it means that CLC learnt some Li Gar. However is this Li Gar the same as the Li Gar of the well known 5 southern Chinese styles of Hung, Mok, Choy, Li, Lau.
Tan Ging means singular force. I was told that Tan Ging is a form from the Vietnam lineage. However I have also heard that a sifu in HK who learnt from CLC also teaches it.
I don’t think Tan Ging has a drunken step. It might be sort of similar to the drunken steps in Hung Gar’s Tiger Crane set in appearance. However it is not executed with the ‘drunken’ characteristics of apparently stumbling, swaying.
ill ask for you about darn ging! i could be wrong the drunken part is not like a drunken kung fu.
it is a vietnamese pak mei form as well as the turtle form, which has characteristics of southern mantis. i think say man lin wan!
ill get back on here later and give you a definite answer.
:rolleyes:
I have heard of the turtle form which was supposedly created by one of the masters of Pak Mei in Vietnam, named Lu Ping Woon.
My Pak Mei is also from the Vietnam lineage, however we don’t have the turtle form as my lineage is from Yip Kwok Leung (aka “Tai Chek Kum”) who is a kung fu brother of Lu Ping Woon.
And yes, we do have the Say Mah Lin Wan (4 horse continuous) form. Its a very short form which is sort of like Sup Ji but its emphasis is on the lam dar techniques.
The founder of Bak Mei Pai, master Cheung Lai-Chuen was born in 1888 as a member of the Hakka community. The Hakka were originally Han-Chinese citizens who lived in Central China, but during the 9th century (civil war of the Tang dynasty) they fled to Southern China. The Southerners called them the Hakka (Guest People). The Hakka practiced forms of martial arts which is totally different from other Chinese styles.
Cheung Lai-Chuen started his martial arts training with Lam Hap, who taught the Dongkong Kuen style (East River Boxing) of Hakka martial arts. Lam Hap’s nephew, Lam Yiu-Kwai later became the founder of the Dragon system. After Cheung completed his training at the Lam Family, he went to the Kwonghao Temple to become the disciple of the Buddhist priest Tzok Faat-Wan. Master Tzok taught Chueng Lai-Chuen the techniques which was handed down by the priest Bak Mei.
Bak Mei Curriculum consists the following forms:
Beginner
Tzik Bo Kuen (Straight Step Fist)
Siu Sap Tzi (Small Ten Character)
Shek Si Sap Tzi Kuen (Ten Character Fist)
Siu Sam Moon (Small Three Doors)
Sam Moon Kiu (THree Door Bridge)
Yingzhao Lien Kiu (Eagle claw INterlinking bridge)
Tzadsapyi Deisaat Kuen (72 Star Boxing)
Bak LOng Kuen (White Dragon Fist)
Intermediate
Sam Moon Baat Gua (Three Door Eight Trigram)
Sai Moon Baat Gua (Four Door Eight TRigram)
Dan Ging (Single Power)
Seung Ging (Double Power)
Advanced
Gao Bo Tui (Nine Step Pushing)
Sap Baat Mo Kiu (Eighteen Rubbing Bridge)
Mang Fu Ha San (Fierce Tiger Departs Mountain)
Mang Fu Tzud Lam (Fierce Tiger Leaves Forest)
Ng Hang Mo (Five Elemental Rubbing)
I think it is a misconception that Cheung Lai-Chuen learned a so-called Laumanpai (Wanderer’s Style). There are no records of this style as a legitimate form of kungfu for as far as I know. I believe it refers to the Hakka style because the Hakka used to be wanderers. Today, the styles of Bak Mei, Dragon and Southern Mantis are considered the three main schools of Hakka Martial Arts.
The oldest fist forms of Hakka have no salutations, this according to ancient Hakka tradition.
everybody’s got a different story that they are completely invested in… I wonder how close the sources are, or how many times removed is the experience?
The fact is, none of us know d*ck about these goings on.
I think most accept that CLC learned from Juk Fat Won of the Kwong Wei Taoist temple where the Bak Mei monk resided and had left 5 forms. CLC learned these and filled out the material with other stuff(why i don’t know)…
From here, the story explodes into all manner of songs, poems, hakka connections and attributes. But Bak Mei was not Hakka before CLC.
Every tangent has its own story and even those learning from people who knew CLC have wildly varying accounts. This in itself is curious…
We can all probably agree that listing form names this way is unnecessary. I don’t believe that anyone knowing and valuing this information in the way it needs to be would just list the forms names so crassly. I guess I would like it if this info weren’t available to just anyone…
if the hakka style never had a salutation, then why know? have you seen these other forms you have mentioned? do you study bak mei kung fu?
moq has a good point, there seems to be different stories about the bak mei history. all i know is that clc added to what he learnt with his previous styles and then called himself grandmaster of bak mei. that is all documented in the 9 step push book. i was told that clc also learnt at jook lum temple at one stage- so the hakka relationship could be from here as well.
we now have 19 hand forms that ming fai has mentioned, clc was taught…do any of you guys and gals have these extra forms that where mention ? if so can you tell us about them, explain alittle about the way they move. what perpose where they developed for etc.
if they are still around that is great!! there are more forms that i would like to see. some forms are similar to other forms through out the style. just in different combo’s!
Lek, first of all, there is no correct way to spell in roman letters the phonetic pronuonciation of a chinese ideograph. Jim Lacy once wrote in some magazine in rebuttal of someone’s letter,“he incorrectly spelled Mew Hing as Miu Hihn, which simply shows his ignorance” WHAT!!??how absurd
Okay, here’s a Bak Mei P’ai (excuse the spelling) story I heard: CLC learned from Lam Yue Quai and possibly from Juk Fat Wan, but he created the name Bak Mei P’ai,and before that it was referred to as simply Ngor Mei P’ai, but…also there’s this one, He called it Bak Mei to separate himself from Loong Ying, changed the footwork and altered the sets and formed a new “forbidden” style, and creating the whole Bak Mei=traitor story to give the system a facinating lineage. BUT..there’s also the possibility that Lam Yue Quai changed the name to Loong Ying to separate from Bak Mei P’ai, so as not to be associated with a “traitor’s style” hmmmmm, who knows? I still think Yim Wing Chun was actually Fong Wing Chun who was actually Fong Chinyang, from Wing Chun county(hence, Fong Wing-Chun) who studied Fukien White Crane, which is referred to as Wing Chun White Crane. Hmmmm?so did Davey Crockett really 'shot him a bar when he was only three"? (probably a gun accident with the family pet-y’know-George Washington is exalted for chopping down his father’s cherry tree(weird kid-probably add)and when he got caught, admitted his guilt)
