I’ve heard the two following views…
Xingyi’s Beng Chuan is the most powerful punch in Chinese martial arts (B.K.Frantzis)
Baji’s punch is the most powerful punch in Chinese martial arts (some other person probably)
I practise Xingyi and so can vouch for the power of Beng Chuan, but how does a Baji player’s punch differ in power and quality to a Beng Chuan? Does anyone here practise both styles? Internally are these styles sort of similar? Any thoughts or comments at all?
Many thanks,
S
i have been practiceing hsing.i from the honan province .i think there is not any punch stronger than the other it would be on how each person trains and how much that person would train on a certan punch ,if it would be pi.chuan..tsuan.chuan…peng.chuan…poa.chuan..heng.chuan.
Most people tend to be biased. You’ll probably find they are biased toward whatever it is they are selling.
Depends on the size and skill of the practitioner.
Everyone will have a different perspective on what style has the most oomph.
Both style ares capable of producing alot of raw power, but if I had to choose one it would be Baji.
One difference is in the fist
Great discussion!
The way I was taught Xingyi’s beng quan fist is different from the typical vertical punch seen in many Chinese styles. It goes like this.
When making a fist…the thumb of the punching hand supports the first two fingers of the fist. Fingers three and four wrap around the thumb locking the tip of the thumb in place. This creates a powerful foreknuckle punch. This is great for striking soft tissue, pressure points or vital targets. Therefore, beng quan has many purposes.
Baji and Xingyi both focus on complete harmony between mind and body. And, although I have never trained Baji, I imagine it embraces the idea of the 6 Harmonies (Hand/Foot, Elbow/Knee, & Shoulder/Hip). This is all about striking the opponent with “whole body power”, not only your fist. Right?
Another similarity is that both a Xingyi and Baji fist can have a downward influence placed at the point of contact. To a trained eye, this subtle sinking (rooting) energy can sometimes be detected. However, to its victim the downward energy is anything but subtle.
Sincerely,
Rueben@kungfuheaven.com
Please visit my site at www.kungfuheaven.com
rlittlejohn: visited your site, saw your photo, and remembered that we pushed at the '06 berkely tournament-- you & i were going for 3rd/4th in heavyweight–you won the match, but i have to say that our match was the most fun of the day–felt like real push hands! welcome to the forum!
–jeff
some would say Zhong Quan in tong bei is more powerful.
altho both xing yi and ba ji have the forward thrust movement of the whole body or qian chong jing as if using a long spear.
xing yi still starts and ends with San Ti posture which is compact and shielding the vitals.
on the other hand, ba ji uses mostly horse riding stance or ma bu, there is big opening and closing or da kai da he.
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I think the excessive stomping, chansijing, and bodyweight drop (sinking) in Baji makes its punch 10 times more powerful than Xingyi.
Wait, I think Xingyi has this also. :eek:
But does Xingyi have elbows??? 
yep hsing.i has that that to and elbows but they are both very explosive arts
Jeff,
I still remember the vicious roll back energy you used on me in Berkeley. Good job. I didn’t even feel it coming. It is indeed a pleasure to hear from you. I too agree with you about the quality of our match.
Folks,
As for the punches…
Another characteristic associated with these two punches is that given the correct angle, they both can be used to defeat themselves. Here’s what I mean. If my opponent uses beng quan or baji punch on me I can counter with beng quan or a baji punch. This is not accomplished by reacting, but by counterattacking. I counterattack by taking a downward angle with my punch over the top of his.
The bottom of my forearm slides across the top of his forearm giving me superior position. My punch will connect with his mid-section and his will fall on nothing. Its like Newton’s law of physics, “…a force that is in motion; stays in motion unless it is acted on by an outside force.”
Rueben@kungfuheaven.com
Please visit my site at www.kungfuheaven.com
Thanks people, all nice ideas!!
I’m sorry, I don’t know ANYTHING about Zhong Quan in Tongbei, or in fact Tongbei at all. Is it a Shaolin system? I’m really keen to learn - could someone tell me what Tongbei’s all about!! Thanks,
Of course there is no answer to this post, but I was just wondering if the power generation method is different. My very basic understanding is that both systems rely on 6 harmonies, but Xingyi uses extending and retracting qi that effects the liver. Baji on the other hand focuses on the transfer of weight in order to put maximum power into a certain point. Please feel free to correct ANY of this as I’m not very knowledgable!
P.s. Does this mean that heavy people have a more powerful Baji punch??
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
S
[QUOTE=blackmantis;732439]P.s. Does this mean that heavy people have a more powerful Baji punch??[/QUOTE]All things being equal, a heavier person would have a more powerful <anything> punch.
[QUOTE=CFT;732447]All things being equal, a heavier person would have a more powerful <anything> punch.[/QUOTE]
My fomula:
Total Punching Power =
External Strength (muscle size, body mass etc) x
Internal Strength (if there is such thing) x
Techniques (including body coordinations and musculoskeletal alignment)
Cheers,
John
some theories;
there is Zuan quan. which you open the palm and close it as a fist right before contact. you move a step forward. you lean your back forward and relax or arch the rear leg and suddenly extended. so body moving forward + back leaning forward + final booster/turbo charged from the leg and closing fist. your whole body is the arm from the leg to the fist.
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Ba Ji using the horse stance. there is a final heel up, turn and land or Nian Zhen. this is the turbo charge.
Xing Yi some would spiral the fist right before contact.
so which is more powerful, if body mass and everything else is the same.
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“one inch longer one inch stronger” - Sounds like Choy Lay Fut as well…
I think CLF and Tong bei appear similar due to their long, whippy, swinging strikes generated by their waist. I’m sure there are differences though…
Check out youtube for Tongbei clips.
I believe the aim of Baji is to develop that special shock power, or explosive power at the moment of impact.
Power basically exploding in all 8 directions.
There is an externally hard appearance/feel to this.
I like your equation for punching power, imperialtaichi.
more theories:
6 harmonies are widely used across the styles.
Tai Chi, the elbow and the knee, the arm and the leg etc in harmony or aligned. it is how you yield, balance, produce Chan Si and Peng jing/power. etc
Ba Ji. you may elbow and knee strikes at the same time, fist punch and low kick at the same time, shoulder and hip Kao at the same time–
attack at 3 levels at the same time or San Pan Lian Ji etc
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One other additional comment is that baji, at higher levels, the horse stance used in postures changes to a stance we call half horse/half bow. You find this in liu da kai usually the other forms except for xiao baji jia. In xiao baji jia the horse stance is always employed.
[QUOTE=SPJ;732677]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Gqds4qRCM
a cool clip from vegas.
:)[/QUOTE]
nice one!!!
Hsing-I’s cannon fist is extremely powerful but I wouldn’t say it’s the most powerful punch… I would say, “punching that way is the most powerful way to punch.”
Driving off the foot, arms held in tight and taking that power and sending it from thrusting off the back leg (like a speed skater), adding hip and waist, upper back, shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger (last two for speed and bite) is very, very strong.
Good boxers do the same thing when they are grounded and throw a heavy uppercut. Or a good hook uses the same mechanics, just the relationship or shape is different.
All punching should be based on this formula, but for reasons outside of one’s control… usually time to hit an opening or one’s position … perhaps you have to up-root yourself for a moment to hit your target … or sink and not drive… then you use more hip/waist then driving off the foot, etc.
The ideal and what can be achieved are not always the same. Though you train to have all parts doing their job.