Xingyi and Ving Tsun...

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

…seem to have many similarities imo. However, I’m no master and my opinion could simply be completely wrong lol. I was wondering if some Xingyi practitioners could point out the major differences between the two styles (obvious ones aside, ex: Ving Tsun has a form named Siu Nim Tao and Xingyi doesn’t).

If i could go ahead and ask questions about the stance and movement:

I’ve read (note: not experienced in person) that the Xingyi basic stance, san ti shi/sher, has most of the body weight on the back leg, about 70/30. I’ve also heard many people say that it’s very similar to boxing. I have a bit of experience boxing (in other words, i cross train it but am no pro) and I personally dont understand how that weight distribution is similar to boxing. Could anyone explain?

2

XingYi is quite different from WC. You keep moving “even if you don’t know what you are going to do yet”. During your moving around and force your opponent to move with you, you may detect opportunity to attack.

Most XingYi guys like to walk 5 miles in the morning daily. They would walk with arms behind the back. This way they can move their spine. They also walk with “Chuan Yi”. If we remove Yi from XingYi Chuan, we will have Xing Chuan. The word “Xing” in Chinese is “walk”. IMO, the whole XingYi syetem builds on top of fast footwork. The “Tui Gong - legs ability” came from both ZZ and walking.

XingYi Chuan … mostly used straight line attacking. It’s different from Bagua cross walking, Taiji center position. The XingYi is suitable for battle field … walking is fighting, fighting is walking, …

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnvG0Sm9GPY&NR=1&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrO_jH6SrX0&feature=related

3

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1150985]XingYi is quite different from WC. You keep moving “even if you don’t know what you are going to do yet”. During your moving around and force your opponent to move with you, you may detect opportunity to attack.

Most XingYi guys like to walk 5 miles in the morning daily. They would walk with arms behind the back. This way they can move their spine. They also walk with “Chuan Yi”. If we remove Yi from XingYi Chuan, we will have Xing Chuan. The word “Xing” in Chinese is “walk”. IMO, the whole XingYi syetem builds on top of fast footwork. The “Tui Gong - legs ability” came from both ZZ and walking.

XingYi Chuan … mostly used straight line attacking. It’s different from Bagua cross walking, Taiji center position. The XingYi is suitable for battle field … walking is fighting, fighting is walking, …

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnvG0Sm9GPY&NR=1&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrO_jH6SrX0&feature=related[/QUOTE]

idk what this guy is rambling about…but yea xing yi and wc are very similar physically except that…xing yi is an offensive style…every movement in xing yi is a strike…there are almost no blocks, deflections, side steps but everything is to get in to attack, wc is more of a counter attack style in theory, many people have changed this aspect, but in its essence its a style to counter attack you kick i react and then then attack…xing yi is my first hit is to break your defense, my next hit is to attack your body, or head. there are alot of fundamental differences, while xing yi may appear linear to the novice, or the unfamiliar it is not, it still uses "tiny"circular movements to generate power. using nei gong and other exercises to build up the tiny muscles detrimental in the expulsion of power.

4

[QUOTE=doug maverick;1151362]idk what this guy is rambling about…but yea xing yi and wc are very similar physically except that…xing yi is an offensive style…every movement in xing yi is a strike…there are almost no blocks, deflections, side steps but everything is to get in to attack, wc is more of a counter attack style in theory, many people have changed this aspect, but in its essence its a style to counter attack you kick i react and then then attack…xing yi is my first hit is to break your defense, my next hit is to attack your body, or head. there are alot of fundamental differences, while xing yi may appear linear to the novice, or the unfamiliar it is not, it still uses "tiny"circular movements to generate power. using nei gong and other exercises to build up the tiny muscles detrimental in the expulsion of power.[/QUOTE]

nice! I understand what you mean, except I think that it actually still sounds similar to Ving Tsun in some of the aspects that you mentioned. The foot work appears and usually is linear up to the point where the practitioner learns circular footwork in huen mah in the biu jee.

But the no blocks, deflections, side steps part def sounds different. So does this mean that all the movements are attacks that either hit the target or collide with his attack? Or is it that the movements are not necessarily classified as blocks?

Sorry for all the question btw, but one more lol! I’ve heard many people say that the power generation in Xing Yi is very similar to boxing, is it really like a more compact version of the same type of movement?

5

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1150985]XingYi is quite different from WC. You keep moving “even if you don’t know what you are going to do yet”. During your moving around and force your opponent to move with you, you may detect opportunity to attack.

Most XingYi guys like to walk 5 miles in the morning daily. They would walk with arms behind the back. This way they can move their spine. They also walk with “Chuan Yi”. If we remove Yi from XingYi Chuan, we will have Xing Chuan. The word “Xing” in Chinese is “walk”. IMO, the whole XingYi syetem builds on top of fast footwork. The “Tui Gong - legs ability” came from both ZZ and walking.

XingYi Chuan … mostly used straight line attacking. It’s different from Bagua cross walking, Taiji center position. The XingYi is suitable for battle field … walking is fighting, fighting is walking, …

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3MwAls9slE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnvG0Sm9GPY&NR=1&feature=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrO_jH6SrX0&feature=related[/QUOTE]

Walking with your arms behind your back makes your body less integrated and is a bad practice in general. The swinging of your arms integrates your spine into movement.

The two styles look similar but who cares about the look. Hsing I people will say that the power generation is better in hsing I and that it is all offensive. Ever try to pi quan a boxer with a good jab? You’d better have some deflectiOn going on or you’re going to walk right into bunches of punches. You can zig zag your footwork all you want but that will cause the puncher to just follow you. And he’ll be able to turn faster than you.

Hsing I’s misguided mentality comes from the one punch one kill mentality. I
going to surprise you and decimate you with a series of powerful punches…but not if I’m attacking too. Maybe if I stand there like a corpse you’ll be able to pull it off.

6

Xing yi has nothing in common with WC. The body mechanics are completely different. What YKW says makes a lot of sense in the sense that XYQ’s footwork allows you to use complete body power, something that WC is not even close to do.

7

[QUOTE=RonBlair;1152112]Walking with your arms behind your back makes your body less integrated and is a bad practice in general. The swinging of your arms integrates your spine into movement.

The two styles look similar but who cares about the look. Hsing I people will say that the power generation is better in hsing I and that it is all offensive. Ever try to pi quan a boxer with a good jab? You’d better have some deflectiOn going on or you’re going to walk right into bunches of punches. You can zig zag your footwork all you want but that will cause the puncher to just follow you. And he’ll be able to turn faster than you.

Hsing I’s misguided mentality comes from the one punch one kill mentality. I
going to surprise you and decimate you with a series of powerful punches…but not if I’m attacking too. Maybe if I stand there like a corpse you’ll be able to pull it off.[/QUOTE]

thats incorrect…xing yi mentality is if you attack, i attack your attack, move around and attack you, or attack you first. dont know who you’ve been training with. but its not about the opponent standing there waiting to be hit. xing yi, when learned correctly, looks physically similar to western boxing in terms of combinations(or mutations as they are known) using the five fist, or animal movements in combos. proper xing yi training imploys bag and pad work, my sifu even had us sparring against different styles. xing yi doesnt have a 1 hit one kill policy…but some masters were thought to be able to do that…which is not out of the realm of belief…30lbs of pressure can crack a chest plate, less to break a rip to puncture a lung. xing yi is about using the bodies mechanics, small tiny circular movements to generate power.

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[QUOTE=RonBlair;1152112]Walking with your arms behind your back makes your body less integrated and is a bad practice in general. The swinging of your arms integrates your spine into movement.[/QUOTE]
During your training, you try to think about your body and not your arm. If you can punch by using your body without using your arm, you will develop “Shenfa”. To walk with “Chuan Yi” is very important part of your XingYi training.

The XingYi Pao Chuan is like “raise up curtain and enter”. Since the curtain cannot move, your raise up arm should not move and only move your body. The concept of “move your body when you punch” is extreamly emphasized in XingYi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj8eFhtkDus

In the XingYi system, walking is fighting, fighting is walking, … XingYi is much more similiar to boxing than to WC.

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[QUOTE=doug maverick;1152146]thats incorrect…xing yi mentality is if you attack, i attack your attack, move around and attack you, or attack you first. dont know who you’ve been training with. but its not about the opponent standing there waiting to be hit. xing yi, when learned correctly, looks physically similar to western boxing in terms of combinations(or mutations as they are known) using the five fist, or animal movements in combos. proper xing yi training imploys bag and pad work, my sifu even had us sparring against different styles. xing yi doesnt have a 1 hit one kill policy…but some masters were thought to be able to do that…which is not out of the realm of belief…30lbs of pressure can crack a chest plate, less to break a rip to puncture a lung. xing yi is about using the bodies mechanics, small tiny circular movements to generate power.[/QUOTE]

And you have these “mutations” on video somewhere right? The only thing I can find on YouTube is the 5 fists and then crappy sparring looking like guys doing the 5 fists one at a time. Nothing at all like boxing. I think you’re living in internal fantasy.

10

[QUOTE=RonBlair;1152159]And you have these “mutations” on video somewhere right? The only thing I can find on YouTube is the 5 fists and then crappy sparring looking like guys doing the 5 fists one at a time. Nothing at all like boxing. I think you’re living in internal fantasy.[/QUOTE]

so you never learned xing yi and just look up youtube videos? wow what a way to find the true essence of a style…dude go learn the style before trying to dismember it…better yet spar with a xing yi guy…if you dont know the system or have never even take one class on it…then you shouldnt be commenting on this thread because it just means you are talking out of your ass… ive taken both xing yi and wing chun extensively so im talking from experience.

as for the fist combos/mutations…you begin to learn their fundamentals in the linking forms of xing yi.. then in the ai shen pao…but ofcourse you have to use your brain break them down find what works for you…deconstruct the techniques…

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[QUOTE=RonBlair;1152159]And you have these “mutations” on video somewhere right? The only thing I can find on YouTube is the 5 fists and then crappy sparring looking like guys doing the 5 fists one at a time. Nothing at all like boxing. I think you’re living in internal fantasy.[/QUOTE]

Well, if he doesn’t, I do.

I just started putting these up on my channel before the holidays. These are from the '98 Internationals. I’ll put up more from '99 and 2000 when I get time… kinda busy right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLq6FXvgtRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z47UfJd3g0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMus0p-_N8

All three trained, by me, in classical Xingyi.

12

There are some similarities between wing chun and xing i.
*Beng quan and the punch both when stepping, for me, are similar.
*The power of both types of punches/techniques require proper alignment and position with connection to the stance.
*The step and follow step, especially, rely heavily on the stance though the stance taken in both styles differ slightly.
*Xing i relies heavily on techniques deriving from the centerline (especially for wood, metal, and water type techniques)… something wing chun also heavily relies on.
*To a certain degree, the strategy of attack and dealing with attacks is similar.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for, but these are things I find in common that I can think of right now.

If you’re wondering about my experience in both, I’ve been training in Wing Chun for 19 years and I’ve practiced some xing i for 22, though most of time is spent in Wing Chun. I have some youtube videos if you want to check them out. The xingi I practice mostly comes from the form xing jing (hsing jing) which is a nice short form that cultivates some of the main concepts of xingi as far as training techniques and stances.

Marty

13

[QUOTE=wingchunner;1152182]The xingi I practice mostly comes from the form xing jing (hsing jing) which is a nice short form that cultivates some of the main concepts of xingi as far as training techniques and stances.[/QUOTE]
May I ask where did you learn your “xing jing” from? I don’t know anybody else teach that from except from my teacher’s line.

When you train XingYi Pao Chuan, it’s like “raise up curtain and enter”. Since the curtain cannot move, your raise up arm should not move and only move your body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj8eFhtkDus

I don’t see this concept “move your body instead of your arm” used in the WC system. The reason is simple. If you move your body, your body will rotate in one direction. You will end with body turn sideway with one long arm and one short arm, the northern CMA concept. This conflict with the southern CMA concept that both of your arms try to be able to hit your opponent at the same time.

14

[QUOTE=Mike Patterson;1152169]Well, if he doesn’t, I do.

I just started putting these up on my channel before the holidays. These are from the '98 Internationals. I’ll put up more from '99 and 2000 when I get time… kinda busy right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLq6FXvgtRE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z47UfJd3g0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEMus0p-_N8

All three trained, by me, in classical Xingyi.[/QUOTE]

nice! Even when I dont train the same style it’s still always awesome seeing TCMA working like that!

[QUOTE=wingchunner;1152182]There are some similarities between wing chun and xing i.
*Beng quan and the punch both when stepping, for me, are similar.
*The power of both types of punches/techniques require proper alignment and position with connection to the stance.
*The step and follow step, especially, rely heavily on the stance though the stance taken in both styles differ slightly.
*Xing i relies heavily on techniques deriving from the centerline (especially for wood, metal, and water type techniques)… something wing chun also heavily relies on.
*To a certain degree, the strategy of attack and dealing with attacks is similar.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for, but these are things I find in common that I can think of right now.

If you’re wondering about my experience in both, I’ve been training in Wing Chun for 19 years and I’ve practiced some xing i for 22, though most of time is spent in Wing Chun. I have some youtube videos if you want to check them out. The xingi I practice mostly comes from the form xing jing (hsing jing) which is a nice short form that cultivates some of the main concepts of xingi as far as training techniques and stances.

Marty[/QUOTE]

Thanks! This actually makes a lot of sense to me. Mainly because a lot of the differences being mentioned by Xing Yi practitioners so far actually seemed like similarities , except they referred to them as differences because the Ving Tsun they describe is without detail or perhaps viewed from a video or bad practitioner.

And the Xing Jing form you describe sounds interesting as well. Is this similar to the 5 Element Fist? Not to disrespect the value of any style/system, but personally what I wanted to gain from some XingYi training was something in which I could learn and train the main concepts, and that would be something i could continously train and also use to refine my Ving Tsun. For that reason I’ve been researching what would be a good family or form that I could look for when i look for a school/teacher (i guess you could say i’m doing my hw for something i’m planning to do in 6-12 months lol). Do you have any suggestions?

15

Also, I guess I could also elaborate on some of the stuff I’m curious about. A lot of people who talk about the difference between Ving Tsun and Xing Yi mention that Xing Yi generates force more like boxing. I’m also familiar with boxing (have been cross training in it since the end of summer) and I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on how Xing Yi is more similar to boxing.

(Note: i may say some super noob things now about Xing Yi but thats because my understanding of it as of now is only from the internet. On a plus note, I’m always glad and willing to learn and be corrected and I dont/wont argue about things I dont know anything about ^^)

The stance in Xing Yi (San ti Shi?) is said to have around 70/30 weight distribution with the 70 on the back leg. I guess one difference that’s clearly noticeable in terms of the stance is that the front foot’s toe is pointed straight forward. So from what I understand based on boxing, does this mean that when you step forward you put all your weight on the front leg for a split second and use that moment to twist your hips like when throwing a cross? Or are we talking smaller and more subtle shift of the hip generated through a central/center line?

16

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1152184]
I don’t see this concept “move your body instead of your arm” used in the WC system. The reason is simple. If you move your body, your body will rotate in one direction. You will end with body turn sideway with one long arm and one short arm, the northern CMA concept. This conflict with the southern CMA concept that both of your arms try to be able to hit your opponent at the same time.[/QUOTE]

imho we do still move the body with the arm in Ving Tsun. If we didn’t then it would make attacking while shifting the hip obsolete (since the hip “energy/power” cant just shoot up to the arm without going through the rest of the upper body). But Chum Kiu and Biu Jee both have shifting with the use of techniques, and i think most schools also have non-form drills to train striking while shifting as well.

The way that I understand and train it, if one were to face a target and punch with shifting, his body would move with the punch, but the angle of this shifting only makes the body turn about 10-20 degrees. If it were more than that we would no longer be facing our target. The only time this isn’t dont is at the Siu Nim tao level, as it doesn’t involve shifting (at least in the Ving Tsun i train)

17

[QUOTE=EternalSpring;1152212]Also, I guess I could also elaborate on some of the stuff I’m curious about. A lot of people who talk about the difference between Ving Tsun and Xing Yi mention that Xing Yi generates force more like boxing. I’m also familiar with boxing (have been cross training in it since the end of summer) and I was wondering if anyone could elaborate on how Xing Yi is more similar to boxing.

(Note: i may say some super noob things now about Xing Yi but thats because my understanding of it as of now is only from the internet. On a plus note, I’m always glad and willing to learn and be corrected and I dont/wont argue about things I dont know anything about ^^)

The stance in Xing Yi (San ti Shi?) is said to have around 70/30 weight distribution with the 70 on the back leg. I guess one difference that’s clearly noticeable in terms of the stance is that the front foot’s toe is pointed straight forward. So from what I understand based on boxing, does this mean that when you step forward you put all your weight on the front leg for a split second and use that moment to twist your hips like when throwing a cross? Or are we talking smaller and more subtle shift of the hip generated through a central/center line?[/QUOTE]

depends on the school of xing yi, wang shu jin style is more like that, in terms of putting the weight on the front for a split second, but other styles use the half step way of walking which means its all back weighted. xing yi when trained correctly, uses combinations like boxing…so boxing you learn, cross, jab, reverse, separately then you do it in combos, same way with xing yi, you can do pi,beng,pao in combo etc. you have to adjust the movements. just like in boxing. the power of xing yi, comes from the small rotation of the ankle, knee, hip waste, shoulder elbow to the fist. and in some movements, even the wrist…like in tsuan chuan..

18

[QUOTE=doug maverick;1152240]depends on the school of xing yi, wang shu jin style is more like that, in terms of putting the weight on the front for a split second, but other styles use the half step way of walking which means its all back weighted. xing yi when trained correctly, uses combinations like boxing…so boxing you learn, cross, jab, reverse, separately then you do it in combos, same way with xing yi, you can do pi,beng,pao in combo etc. you have to adjust the movements. just like in boxing. the power of xing yi, comes from the small rotation of the ankle, knee, hip waste, shoulder elbow to the fist. and in some movements, even the wrist…like in tsuan chuan..[/QUOTE]

This sounds exactly like boxing. Why waste time doing then in the air when you can just hit a bag or pads. There’s plenty of boxers with good power. Unfortunately there aren’t any current pro-fighters just utilizing hsing I. Might as well train boxing.

Mike Patterson,

Those were good clips. Are any of your students fighting soon? What other venue do they fight in besides lei tai?

19

[QUOTE=RonBlair;1152245]This sounds exactly like boxing. Why waste time doing then in the air when you can just hit a bag or pads. There’s plenty of boxers with good power. Unfortunately there aren’t any current pro-fighters just utilizing hsing I. Might as well train boxing.

Mike Patterson,

Those were good clips. Are any of your students fighting soon? What other venue do they fight in besides lei tai?[/QUOTE]

well like i said xing yi has pad and bag work…but even boxing you practice combos in the air…

20

[QUOTE=RonBlair;1152245]This sounds exactly like boxing. Why waste time doing then in the air when you can just hit a bag or pads. There’s plenty of boxers with good power. Unfortunately there aren’t any current pro-fighters just utilizing hsing I. Might as well train boxing.

Mike Patterson,

Those were good clips. Are any of your students fighting soon? What other venue do they fight in besides lei tai?[/QUOTE]

Here’s another one from Alex’s 1999 semi-final match I just finished and uploaded this afternoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yviiLACfjK8

I actually officially retired from full contact coaching in 2000 due to political reasons in the organization, Ron. But I have a couple guys right now trying to drag me back into it, so who knows? :slight_smile:

We’ve always competed in Kuoshu/Leitai because it is both what I grew up with and the rule structure was the most palatable in the early 90’s before MMA came into its own. Otherwise, we would probably have been there.

As an aside; we don’t consider training in the air to be a waste of time for numerous reasons, but the two I think you may be able to most identify with are:

  1. It allows for training of footwork in conjunction with our body mechanics to promote good habit of body integration.
  2. It teaches us to keep better balance while in high speed motion so that when we do start hitting things, people, etc. the eventual and inevitable “misses” that occur in targeting will not leave us horribly over extended and exposed to counter attack.

Also, as has been pointed out, boxers also do “air” work to develop fluid movement in strke combos. Most styles do.

But hey, I would be the first to agree that many TCMA folks nowadays don’t spend nearly enough time hitting things or practicing technique against resistant opponents. This is something I’ve been saying for over 30 years since first coming back stateside from Taiwan. The majority of kungfu folk are just simply out of touch with their roots these days. :wink: