Attn: Frank

SifuX-HSK · March 2, 2004, 9:11pm

clfnole

for your own sense of relief…

i know much about the drama going on within. i have been told by people that truly know but will remain nameless.

i have been told by them that lkh was a fierce supporter of the hsk.

but my sifu did train me right, regardless of the massive opinion of the chan clan. i have not or will not discuss openly here nor is it my place to hold any judgement.

i have held my tongue for a long time on what i know. but will never disrespect an elder such as lee koon hung.

but i do apologize for any insinuations, though!

frank

CLFNole · March 2, 2004, 9:22pm

Frank:

I am all for the true Hung Sing story if the truth is really out there (like Mulder would say). However the Chan people saying the Green Grass Monk was actually Choy Fook is no different than your clain the Lung Chi Choy was Cheong Yim.

This is my whole point about history we can all argue til the cows come home and never resolve anything. Is it all worth it?

You always post to people “what do you do for CLF?” To me what one does for CLF is not about correcting or changing history or writting books. Its about taking students and teaching them “mo duk”. Teaching them to be humble and good people. Holding true to the teachings of the sifu and maintaining the good name of CLF. If we all hold true to our sifu’s teachings and good ideals than CLF will be the better for it. That is doing something good for CLF. All this arguing and bickering over who taught who and what not only weakens our strenght as a group.

All branches have great things to offer each other and this is what should be remembered.

One thing you stated before about doing your research got me thinking on something. Do you really think that the current Fut San school is truly accurate on its history. I mean it was only reestablished recently through help by the government. Without mentioning names, one need not dig to deep to also know who is really behind the scenes there handling the teaching & instructors.

Anyhow, we would all do well to work together rather than always fight. The hung gar folks are working together now, why not us?

Peace.

CLFNole · March 2, 2004, 9:25pm

If you are referring to Poon Sing, his story has even changed over the years. I met him back in 1997 and when I spoke with him about history and lineage it was quite different from what i think you believe.

If you want to PM me I would explain more.

Peace.

Fu-Pow · March 2, 2004, 10:13pm

CLFNole-

You are right we should not be discussing LKH and what he may or may not have thought. I don’t really know for sure what his stance was. But we do know that we have influence from both sides. For Frank to criticize me as being a Chan Family supporter is to criticize all of LKH’s students as Chan Family supporters. The fact that I don’t edit the true history makes me a supporter? Whatever.

As for the being humble, I won’t. I believe in myself, my school and my Sifu. Until someone proves me otherwise I will say we are the best and put my money where my mouth is. That’s my attitude and I’m sticking too it. And Frank, I didn’t a flying f*** if some White Crane school calls my Sifu. He’s gonna laugh in their face just like he did to anyone else that tried to start trouble for me. He doesn’t buy into this crap like you do.

For the record here’s my official position in terms of the Hung Sing/Chan Family debate:

I really think the Jeong Hung Sing side of things is incomplete. I think the Bak Sing side is even more incomplete. Because of the nature of CLF and the purpose it was created for it was desseminated all around Southern China in a not very orderly fashion. Things were lost and modified along the way. Don’t get me wrong, Hung Sing/Bak Sing have produced good fighters based on the limited range of techniques that they do have. But the Chan Family has the whole system, the Chi Gung, Dummies, Animal Forms, Baat Gwa Sets, Push Hands,etc. They have a whole unified “system” of training.

Hung Sing/Bak Sing have filled in the holes in their systems with a patchwork of other forms from various sources. (And in some cases a whole lot of B.S. rhetoric and posturing). That’s why there is such a patchwork of different forms and 20 versions of the history (outside of the Chan Family).

I’m not a Chan Family “supporter” but I definitely think that I could learn something from them by learning some aspects of their system (ie animal forms, baat gwa forms, Chi Gung). It might shed some light on things that I’m already training and take it to the next level. My aim is primarily selfish, I want to improve my own kung fu.

I talked to a guy (who will remain nameless) who trained for a long time with my Sifu in Hawaii. He said the LKH CLF forms fit “very nicely” with the Chan Family stuff. So I don’t think it would be too much of stretch to learn it. I even asked my Sifu if I could train with this guy and learn the Chi Gung sets. He had no problem with that. Unfortunately, I screwed up on the date and missed the seminar for the Siu Lohan set.

I guess I’m a traitor to Hung Sing also because I train Chen Taiji. My Chen Taiji has improved my CLF immeasurably. But…wait…wouldn’t Frank be a traitor to Hung Sing too…because he trained some stick fighting?

Jamesbond_007 · March 2, 2004, 11:09pm

CLFNole:

I never try to use my father-in-law’s name for the sake of reputation or anything

Is your father-in-law LKH?

CLFNole · March 3, 2004, 12:48am

Fu-Pow:

As far as “buying into this crap”, no I don’t people on the other side of a computer shouldn’t scare anyone and to be honest some take this stuff to seriously.

When Seng Au told you that our sets fit nicely thats because most (if not all) of our CLF is from their side.

But can you honestly tell me that you believe Chan Hueng created 180 forms, weapons, internal sets and 18 dummies. Must have had a hell of a lot of time on his hands. Forms had to have been added over the years. So if Hung Sing and Buk Sing added forms is it any different.

I have heard few CLF sifus say that learning the internal sets is essential, however if someone has them and another doesn’t its easy to say that the other is lacking the “complete” system. Our style was designed for fighting, 1st and foremost. When my sihingdai visted with Shek Kin he was telling them that in the begining many styles didn’t have forms at all. Rather just combinations such as chin lahn poon kiu chop choy, etc… He went on to say the many forms were created to entertain the emperor. Why would yo need forms during the 1800s anyway, its not like there were tournaments and trophies given out. I also believe that forms are more of a modern phenomenon.

Oh and by the way about being the best at lion dancing, unless you are doing the crazy stuff up on the high poles like YKM and Bak Hok you might want to take that one back. The best lion dancing is in Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong. I got a recent VCD from a competition and Singapore and it was freakin crazy.

007:

You read between the lines well.

Peace.

Fu-Pow · March 3, 2004, 9:59pm

Originally posted by CLFNole
[B]Fu-Pow:

But can you honestly tell me that you believe Chan Hueng created 180 forms, weapons, internal sets and 18 dummies. Must have had a hell of a lot of time on his hands. Forms had to have been added over the years. So if Hung Sing and Buk Sing added forms is it any different.

FP: Maybe not all of them but many of them. Especially the handsets. If you added up all the handsets it wouldn’t be 180 forms. Probably more like 40 or 50.

I have heard few CLF sifus say that learning the internal sets is essential, however if someone has them and another doesn’t its easy to say that the other is lacking the “complete” system.

FP: Well from my perspective the internal aspects are very important. Maybe it’s because I also study Chen Taiji. The subtle movements of the spine, torso, hips and shoulders are very important to the overall way that you move. In addition, how you breath, your “intent” and your overall mindset are hugely important. These component are what I consider to be “internal.” Maybe the Chan Family Internal sets are more meditative/medical and aren’t as integral to the fighting aspects as they are in Taiji. However, most style of Kung Fu have this internal training so why wouldn’t CLF? A lot of the Hung Sing guys do Taiji also. Why? Maybe they are feeling that their art is missing this more meditative/subtle component.

Our style was designed for fighting, 1st and foremost. When my sihingdai visted with Shek Kin he was telling them that in the begining many styles didn’t have forms at all. Rather just combinations such as chin lahn poon kiu chop choy, etc… He went on to say the many forms were created to entertain the emperor.

FP: Well, I doubt that the CLF guys were entertaining the emperor if you catch my drift.

Why would yo need forms during the 1800s anyway, its not like there were tournaments and trophies given out. I also believe that forms are more of a modern phenomenon.

FP: I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Forms were a convenient way to transmit information to the next generation. When you had a group of people that were largely illiterate it was probably the best way to pass info on.

Oh and by the way about being the best at lion dancing, unless you are doing the crazy stuff up on the high poles like YKM and Bak Hok you might want to take that one back. The best lion dancing is in Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong. I got a recent VCD from a competition and Singapore and it was freakin crazy.

FP: You should note, however, that that type of lion dancing is not traditional Southern Lion. It is using the Southern Lion in a Northern Lion type of way. As far as traditional my Sifu is still King. BTW, he has been invited to judge many of those “high flying” competitions.

Peace. [/B]

CLFNole · March 3, 2004, 10:23pm

Fu-Pow:

As far as the internal sets go, I think that hei gung/chi kung exercises are good. However as far as sets go so-called internal and external are two different ways to the same end result.

External starts hard and develops soft, whereas internal starts soft and gets hard. If you learn to develop your CLF correctly you will learn to develop “internal power” through proper movement, etc… I think the chi kung exercises are good for breathing but I don’t think doing CLF slowly will necessarily make you better.

About the lion thing, the old style is nice but it has died out somewhat. I mean jumping onto the legs or jumping straight to the shoulders is kind of basic. The new styles are very exciting to watch and very difficult to do. I do prefer the older style of drumming, however the new style fits the manner the new lions move. Also the new lion style looks more alive to me than the old style. As far as kung fu I am very traditional and like the old ways, however I really enjoy to watch the new lion style. My sisuk Li Siu Hung has his guys doing the poles now and at Chinese New Year it was really cool to watch.

Peace.

Pork_Chop · March 3, 2004, 10:27pm

Wasn’t the Freestyle comp in San Fran supposed to be the only traditional lion competition?

It would be a good thing for traditional lion dancing, especially on the west coast, if it turned out to be true.

On the east coast you just have to go to any big city’s chinatown on chinese new year’s to see who’s the best in that big city’s region.

Just make sure you don’t go there with a lion saying you’re the best in the states, coz you’ll be expected to prove it, and I don’t know if having your lion ripped in half is worth it.

I imagine if that traditional lion competition is legit on the west coast, than the White Crane and Yau Kung Mun schools will strut their stuff there as well.

Does anybody in Hong Kong know that your sifu’s calling himself the “king of lion in hong kong”?

Fu-Pow · March 3, 2004, 10:47pm

Originally posted by CLFNole
[B]Fu-Pow:

As far as the internal sets go, I think that hei gung/chi kung exercises are good. However as far as sets go so-called internal and external are two different ways to the same end result.

External starts hard and develops soft, whereas internal starts soft and gets hard. If you learn to develop your CLF correctly you will learn to develop “internal power” through proper movement, etc… I think the chi kung exercises are good for breathing but I don’t think doing CLF slowly will necessarily make you better.

FP: Maybe we are saying the same thing, but from my experience its not quite so simple. When you first start practing MA’s you are sloppy and uncoordinated. Slowly, through the external movement you learn to relax. Your movement does become “softer” especially in the limbs. That is because the movement shifts from the outside to the inside. The torso, shoulder, hips and breathing become much more important to your overall movment. Eventually, you become so “soft” that you become “hard” again. That is because everything is so well coordinated, like a well lubricated machine that you can issue massive force with seemingly little muscular effort. You can be seemingly soft (like a steel thread wrapped in cotton) or seemingly hard (like a stiff iron rod.) If you have excercises that are designed to magnify your inefficiencies and work on this internal coordination (ie hei gung) then this process will progress faster. But you are right that the end goal is the same.

About the lion thing, the old style is nice but it has died out somewhat. I mean jumping onto the legs or jumping straight to the shoulders is kind of basic. The new styles are very exciting to watch and very difficult to do. I do prefer the older style of drumming, however the new style fits the manner the new lions move. Also the new lion style looks more alive to me than the old style. As far as kung fu I am very traditional and like the old ways, however I really enjoy to watch the new lion style. My sisuk Li Siu Hung has his guys doing the poles now and at Chinese New Year it was really cool to watch.

FP: Not to discredit those guys or the difficulty of what they do. But they ARE doing Southern Lion in a more acrobatic Northern way. That’s cool but you can’t really compare that with the Southern Lion where the goal is more to make the audience believe that the Lion is actually alive. In this respect my Sifu is the King. The best. I’ve never seen better. And for the record he was called that when he lived in Hong Kong. I don’t believe he gave that title to himself!!

Peace. [/B]

hasayfu · March 4, 2004, 12:59am

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