http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31602&page=1&pp=15
I came across this . . . and thought it was funny . . . then I thought that maybe some of you might want to go post video of yourself fighting to show that wc isn’t bullshido.
Thanks,
Ghost
That’s hysterical!!
Check out the 'Pimp My Gi" photo gallery.
Yes . . . I like the motivational posters! . . . lol . . . I see much discussion about Hung Fa Yi there too . . . those bullshido guys are ruthless.
Thanks,
Ghost
It’s all true really..
You don’t see any high level WCK folks who fight… Now, I have seen exceptions but very few good folks and even less who want to compete at a high level NHB or full contact venue, and THAT’s what’s gets all the attention.
The folks who train in Muay Thai; Kick Boxing; Boxing, etc, all have one thing in common that 99% of everyone else does not have - THEY ACTUALLY WANT TO FIGHT! More than that they DO fight and for most Traditional Martial Artists that is NOT what they are looking to do. In a practical sense most WCK folks train like Aikidoka, against attacks ranging from really bad to bad to so so .. Not dynamic combat like the full contact styles do or even how full contact Karate trains and THAT is their advantage, even in cases where there is no real system they learn how to fight, take hits and dish them out in the chaos of combat, and fact is that kind of hard core training is hard to beat…
WCK folks have a bit of a problem finding good competition in class since the art is so highly stylized. So, serious folks often need to go outside their WCK group to get practical fighting experience unless they have very progressive teachers who make sure they get to fight folks who can fight using more mainstream tactics. But in order to do that you need good folks training with you in the kwoon who have other experience and make use of it.
In the end the problem is one of reputation and demand. Those folk who want to fight will go to the fighting styles and those folks who don’t want to fight will go to those schools offering ‘short cuts’ offering various levels of realism depending on those involved. When it’s all over you get out of WCK what you put into it and while WCK will always appeal to intellectuals for Self Defense it is still up in the air if WCK will ever make the crossover to full contact sport..
I have my fingers crossed…
All I can say to your post Yung Chun is this … "Come on down to New Zealand and look up the Traditional Wing Chun Clubs ie Grandmanster Cheung Lineage there are Instructors like Sifu Joe Moahengi, Sifu Dale Marsters and another qualified Instructor guy simply named Geoff.
Geoff and Sifu Dale are all students of Sifu Joe Moahengi who learnt directly and privately from Grand Master Cheung himself and it reflects in how his students apply themselves.
These guys are all about combat and full contact with Joe Moahengi securing a World Championship as well as variours International titles through the 80’s, Geoff was winning numerous full contact Tournaments Nationally and Internationally through the mid to late 80’s and now Sifu Dale Masters who is representing Wing Chun in the Full Contact San Chou(sp) Tournaments from 2002 onwards has always been defeating opponents right, left and centre.
The Wing Chun practised by the TWC students is all about the Full Contact with unbelievable success against your Thai Boxers, Kick Boxers and Full Contact Karate Fighters. There was a young 14 year old kid from Wing Chun who fought in the Under 16 Full Contact Karate Tournament and won, he also went on to fight in the Under 20 division and narrowly lost on points after knocking his opponent down 8 times over 3 rounds, the guy looked like a “train wreck” where as the young Wing Chun exponent walked out with his head held high as the crowd was just booing the Karate winnner and cheering for the young kid. I put it to you this way, the crowd clearly knew who had won.
The Sifu’s here have always focussed on the Art and nothing but the Art abnd it reflects in how TWC is applied in the Ring, with unbelievable precision.
Wing Chun in New Zealand has always been about the Full Contact, maybe some of the other TWC guys can vouch for this I know that I certainly can.
Great! When will we see these guys fighting in NHB competitions . . . if they have not arleady? Maybe you should go to bullshido site and post some videos of some of these fights . . . they keep saying there is no evidence to support claims of wc fighters . . . I’m sure you guys have video . . . so let them have it!
Thanks,
Ghost
Here’s a video of a WCer dominating in an amature MMA fight. And guess what? I got it from “bullshido”.
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=75
Regards,
John M. Drake
With some help from my friends, I’ve really come to realise that it’s okay to be me and “box” with my WC. I also really believe it’s called WC Boxing, or Chinese Boxing just like it’s called Thai Boxing or French Boxing, etc. WC adds a little spice to just boxing and increases the odds, etc. It’s “scientifically proven” to work which is great! But to each his own because of naturally ability.
That clip is horrible. But if I wasn’t getting any forward pressure like that from my opponent, I’d probably keep blasting too. Nah. Maybe I’d use some angles, etc too. The only thing I’d like to say about the clip, I guess is that you have to be careful coming in blasting like that as there are many people who can take one on the chin and fire a nice round punch and you’re done! Keep moving, using angles and “box” more. Oh well. Bullshido sucks hard. I hate that website. If I was ever bored and felt like being told off by a bunch of 12-year-olds…I’d go there.
Peace,
Kenton Sefcik
NHB There is no intereset in those sorets of comps. in reality like the striking cops they are normally geared towards your style. It seems pretty stupid when you are out on the streets will you go to ground in a car park, gravel road, concrete etc. if so you would cut to shreds together with getting the crap beaten out of you.
Common sense please, I still fail to understand why is there a fascination with NHB,UFC etc. when it is no different to how the K1, Thai Tournaments are structured ie the rules are set to give your style whether it be grappling, striking etc an advantage.
Out on the streets where it all matters, these “rukes” do not come into play, no pone cares about them. I have taken a look at the Bullshido site after the above post and all I can see them doing is really having a stab at the “Wing Chun Latte Faithful”, as they do not seem to criticise the TWC Practitioners or even Grand Master Cheung in TWC or Leung Ting himself on the Modified side of things.
Ok . . . so these competitions were more like kickboxing events? I see what you mean about being stupid to go to ground on street . . . but some times we can not help it . . . we fall . . . or get knocked down . . . or get taken down . . . so maybe it is not so stupid to know what to do . . . but that is just me. Other thing is when groundfighter does take some one down in streetfight . . . usually they are on top . . . so cuts belong to guy who does not know ground. Some might say it stupid to go into fight without knowing ground game. I agree with you about rules . . . they can give advantage to style . . . nothing in NHB prevents striking . . .but kickboxing does not permit ground or clinch . . . two thirds of fight.
Out on the streets where it all matters, these “rukes” do not come into play, no pone cares about them. I have taken a look at the Bullshido site after the above post and all I can see them doing is really having a stab at the “Wing Chun Latte Faithful”, as they do not seem to criticise the TWC Practitioners or even Grand Master Cheung in TWC or Leung Ting himself on the Modified side of things.
Does not wc matter where ever you fight? If there are no rules on street . . . like preventing clinch or ground . . . and you never fight in clinch or ground in kickboxing tournaments . . . it seems you will be very unprepared for clinch or ground . . . as all your fighting has been with rules protecting you from clinch and ground. . . do you see what I mean?
Bullshido seems to me to be talking about all wc . . . of which Cheung and Ting are part . . . some have even made fun of Cheung and Boztepe fight . . . you might also want to see anti-grappling thread on bullshido.
Thanks,
Ghost
Yes there are times when you do go to ground, just like there are times when you stay on your feet. I do not know where people get this idea that Wing Chun does not go to ground in actual fact there are a lot of take down moves in TWC, if you don’t know them then your Instructor obviously does not know Wing Chun. We were taught to go to ground, do what you need to do in the clinch, if required, and then get back to your feet. Very much like grapplers will go to ground and stay there.
Who ever said that they “did not know what to do”, grappling is not “the be all to end all”, it is just another form of fighting which is popular right now, very much like Judo in 60’s -70’s, Kung Fu and Kickboxing in 70’s-80’s and Thai Boxing through the 90’s, now it is the turn of the Grappling Arts to have “their day in the sun”.
Ghost there are no rules out on the street and if you are up against someone who goes to ground, then the guy is an idiot, if you cannot counter against the tackle or the take down then you need to go to an Instructor that does know.
You see there are nothing wrong with all of the Martial Arts, the problem is the Instructors, a lot are in it for the money, and most of the time their knowledge is actually pathetic to be honest with you.
When it comes to the Cheung Boztepe fight, I have spken to Grand Master himself as to what happened and it is very different to what is reported or assumed. Bullshido are really a pro-grappling site of course they will trash arts like Wing Chun, because a very good and well rounded Wing Chun Practitioner is a force.
I’ve seen this guy around a bit (at the gym I go to) and watched him fight in the Sanshau tournaments. He’s a giant and knows his stuff - which is a good combination.
Three guys from the WC school I train at won their fights at last years Sanshau tournament- Dale had a fight there too but not against our guys, they’re quite a bit lighter than he is! 
Irrelevent
Im so fine with my VT that nothing any of these punks can say will change that.
They are right in a lot of respects but to say there are no VT people that can back up thier Sh-t is just plain ignorant.
Fiamach said
“Wing Chun in New Zealand has always been about the Full Contact, maybe some of the other TWC guys can vouch for this I know that I certainly can.”
Not all NZ VT is about full contact but there are many. We have both sides of the coin like any other country… Ive been to most of the schools in Auckland to touch hands with the Sifu’s and some train full contact some do not…
However -
VT fighters won the last San Shou compition over other kung fu styles etc like whiplash said.
My Best friend is a professional bodyguard who trains religiously, hes competent on the ground and as a striker, hes hard and can take a knock.
He controls me in fighting a lot of the time, (as he should) but has comented on my skills and knows that im not a ‘pushover’ like some will have you believe about VT… this argument is just rediculous.
Fiamach do you train in Auckland ? and with who ? do you accept visitors ?
As for the UFC debate -
Yeah yeah im sick of the Asbel cancino call - Dave Benetau (sp?) is an awesome grappler and beat other wrestlers and strikers of different styles to VT but you never hear people bash those other styles…That was a product of the matchmaking back then IMHO… the point was to see poelple get knocked the f–k out, for ratings.
At the end of the day - all styles have lost in the cage - grapplers, karate, kenpo, BJJ, Pitfighters, Grieco roman wrestlers and VT’ers the list goes on… because fighters win or loose fights not styles…
all I can see them doing is really having a stab at the “Wing Chun Latte Faithful”, as they do not seem to criticise the TWC Practitioners or even Grand Master Cheung in TWC or Leung Ting himself on the Modified side of things.
Ghost is correct. The Cheung/Boztepe fight is seen on that site as a quintessential piece of Bullshido. you can find a video and extensive discussion thereof, FWIW. You can also find a few threads in Wc/T guys that have succeeded in ring fights under various rules.
It’s true that most rules don’t suit WC. So you may need to modify it to succeed. Oldtime kickboxing allowed no kicks below the waist, so guys like Rick Spain and Joe Moahenghi learned to kick effectively above the waist. The same “useless in a streetfight so why bother” argument applies to high kicks as it does to groundfighting (which is NOT the same as grappling).
There’s nothing in MMA rules to say you have to go to the ground. You can stay standing (or try to) and just strike. If your style is so cool you can win that way. Even with gloves. Jeez, one of the later issues of Australasian Blitz even has GM Cheung doing a demo with a boxer with both of them wearing 14 or 16 oz gloves.
A number of guys on your earlier list probably got there because of competition success, I venture. And if it were not that but for “streetfighting”, I daresay their competition training and experience was of great value in their successes there.
Right on! Grappling and groundfighting seem to get so mixed up (I’m probably guilty of it too). IMO grappling is part of WC and many other styles that aren’t JJ or BJJ or Judo.
Basic definition: Grappling is an element of many martial arts, and consists of techniques for handling the opponent in which the opponent is held or gripped rather than struck. This includes maneuvers to obtain a strong position (for example guard or mount), takedowns, various pins, joint locks, and pain locks. Chinese martial arts have a system related to grappling known as chin na which involves the use of acupressure points to obtain locks or to otherwise incapacitate an opponent. …
IMO groundfighting is more relevant when refering to styles such as BJJ, JJ, ect…
Not that they ONLY fight on the ground, but I feel that grappling covers more styles than groundfighting. 
Just an opinion. I’m certainly no expert when it comes to any style. Any other thoughts…
The context driving this part of my post was in relation to the TWC guys, where the emphasis is very much on application.
Yes I do train in Auckland, if you want to train with Sifu Dale Marsters he has started a class at Youthtown Mon & Wed 19:30 –> 21:00, you canb even come and visit as well as spar if you want to.
The context driving this part of my post was in relation to the TWC guys, where the emphasis is very much on application.
Yes I do train in Auckland, if you want to train with Sifu Dale Marsters he has started a class at Youthtown Mon & Wed 19:30 –> 21:00, come and visit he wonyt have a problem with that.
Sifu Joe Moahengi trains out in Otara, and Sifu Joe Moahengi’s senior student Geoff only trains in his garage nowadays, from what I heard they are only Private students.
Thanks…
Fiamacho,
is Sifu Joe Moahengi a large gentleman that used to run the Martial art supply shop for Peter Yu off queen street ?.. If so i have met him and spoke for a short time, but have not seen his VT…
Im only interested because the VT schools i have visited around Auckland are not that of TWC, which i have had the intrest of touching hands with for a while…
Thanks for the info…
Hey Liddel, Sifu Joe Maohengi is a big man and he has never worked at Peter Yu’s shop, you must be thinking of someone else.
There are only 3 TWC Instructors in New Zealand they are Sifu Joe, Sifu Dale and Geoff. With Geoff he never refers to himself as a Sifu it is just Geoff … ha ha ha … Speak to Sifu Dale he can fill you in on the other two if you are curious about their abilities etc.
fiamacho
Must be some videos of some of this, huh? Maybe you could post one or post a link to one.
Here’s a video of a WCer dominating in an amature MMA fight. And guess what? I got it from “bullshido”.
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...linkinfo&id=75
So, was that a good demonstration of how WC is used in a fight?