I don’t think forms are useless, because I think they might be too bad for solo work.
I came to this conclusion because I took apart my forms, and started drilling applications separately, then got bored doing the same movement 20+ times in a row, and started making up combinations, and then I was back to forms … LOL
Full Circle
mostly dead? 
[QUOTE=andyhaas;1128964]What? I took a mostly forms based MA for 5+ years … I never said I never learned any forms. I just don’t want to study any more forms from anybody else, ever, I think.[/QUOTE]
So that means TMAs are mostly dead? lol…
[QUOTE=andyhaas;1128969]I don’t think forms are useless, because I think they not might be too bad for solo work.
I came to this conclusion because I took apart my forms, and started drilling applications separately, then got bored doing the same movement 20+ times in a row, and started making up combinations, and then I was back to forms … LOL[/QUOTE]
When you are home by yourself, forms will be your only friend besides your other training equipments. The question is what kind of forms do you train. Most forms are designed for teaching and learning only. They are not designed for training. You will need “special” form for your personal training. Where is that “special” form? That “special” form doesn’t exist on this planet. You have to create it yourself. If you have 100 different drills, you can link it anyway that you want on any given day. make sure the connection make combat sense (move 1 sets up move 2, move 2 sets up move 3, …). It’s a challenge task and not an easy job.
[QUOTE=andyhaas;1128946]I was thinking about the current MMA popularity and wondering why there aren’t more people enrolled in martial arts schools and traditional martial arts, when I came across this article.
http://martialartsbusinessdaily.com/2324/when-martial-arts-become-mainstream/
What lept out at me was it listed the “self defense” market as being different than the martial arts market.
I thought about it and how many martial arts schools really teach self defense? Karate, TKD, ‘kung fu’, etc., how many really teach realistic self defense from attacks?
I am thinking that many TMAs have become so watered down now and so far from self defense as to be ‘dead’. Meaning that somebody won’t gain substantial self defense skill from studying the TMA.
How many people spend years learning forms and wanting to learn self defense, and then basically give up and make excuses? It’s no wonder MMA is popular when it focuses on short-term fighting skills rather than lengthy forms without applications.[/QUOTE]
yes. MMA do not have weapon. so MMA is not a complete “style”.
if CMA schools focusing on weapons, staff, spear, sword, etc
staff for self defense.
not just open hand stuff.
–
[QUOTE=SPJ;1128987]MMA do not have weapon. --[/QUOTE]
A MMA guy challenged a TCMA guy. The TCMA guy accepted. During the duel day, the MMA guy brought his 4 oz MMA gloves, the TCMA guy brought his 80 lb Guan Dao.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1128988]A MMA guy challenged a TCMA guy. The TCMA guy accepted. During the duel day, the MMA guy brought his 4 oz MMA gloves, the TCMA guy brought his 80 lb Guan Dao.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, MMA doesn’t have any weapons. Not that most people carry around an 80 lb guan dao in their back pocket.
Well, if someday I get enough money to set up a school and design a curriculum, maybe I’ll design baguazhang taught in the style of Aikido taught without any forms until later, if people want to learn some forms for practicing at home.
TMA or classical martial arts isn’t dead at all, but flourishing underground the way it should be. Indeed, MMA is the rage as the ninja crazy was twenty years ago. We are witnessing another trend.
However, if TMA is being perceived in a commercial sense then it has been dead for the past 30 years, but as a viable art form it will never die. 
[QUOTE=Mulong;1128994]TMA or classical martial arts isnt dead at all, but flourishing underground the way it should be. Indeed, MMA is the rage as the ninja crazy was twenty years ago. We are witnessing another trend.
However, if TMA is being perceived in a commercial sense then it has been dead for the past 30 years, but as a viable art form it will never die. [/QUOTE]
i actually dont see mma as a trend, not in the least…all those other crazes weren’t generating the kind of $$ mma is..i think mma as a sport will supersede boxing eventually…not in the foreseeable future, but soon. and i think its going to be around for a very long time…and this is coming from someone who has practiced TMA his whole life and continue to do so…its just facts are facts money talks everything else takes a hike. and mma is gonna be a billion dollar business if it already isnt.
Doug, as sport yes, but on a commercial/ recreational sense not really; how many commercial/recreational boxing gym are out there? The only chain I’m aware is LABoxing.
We should take into account most individuals doing MMA are doing it recreationally not as a sport; hence, a trend in a commercial sense.
[QUOTE=doug maverick;1128995]i actually dont see mma as a trend, not in the least…all those other crazes wasnt generating the kind of $$ mma is..i think mma as a sport will supercede boxing eventually…not in the foreseeable future, but soon. and i think its going to be around for a very long time…and this is coming from someone who has practiced TMA his whole life and continue to do so…its just facts are facts money talks everything else takes a hike. and mma is gonna be a billion dollar business if it already isnt.[/QUOTE]
Most open door TCMA schools are adding in more classes in sanda/sanshou, and shuai jiao, to keep up with the “trend.” Otherwise, prospective students will simply go to the hack kempo school down the block, who is teaching bjj from a video…
Nothing wrong with that, as it gets TCMAists to re-evaluate their teaching methods.
What bothers me is that there are TMA schools teaching Kisi and Krav Maga rather than looking within their own art to teach effective self-defense. I don’t get that.
Sadly few Chinese stylists realize that CMA is tactical fighting; I have been stating this for years. It seems we only see competitive fighting as viable mean. 
Judo is alive and well.
Jiu-Jitsu is thriving.
Thai Boxing has spread worldwide
Hardcore karate still exists… it hasn’t become all Paul Mitchell silver nunchucks in latin America.
Ba Gua and HSing-I are still really alive with my master… when he’s gone, I don’t know. That’s why I tried to get on their a$$es. The blue print will be left behind. They have that potential.
Wing Chun is alive but should die. The most over rated system. The best of it is pretty much all on the big screen today.
Boxing is losing popularity but still very much alive. And worth keeping alive.
Wrestling has always been and always will be.
MMA is growing fast. I hope it expands to bokens with shoulder pads/helmets.
[QUOTE=andyhaas;1128946]Are TMA’s mostly dead[/QUOTE]
Have you been to every city in the USA or how about the world? Sometimes we see only the bright shiny stuff in front of and never see anything else.
Not every kung fu school has changed or watered down their systems. There are many garage or backyard schools that still teach traditional curriculums.
A lot of commercial schools are easily found (yellow pages / Internet etc). So many people go to these modern schools and learn forms. many of these new schools cater to the modern persons needs. Many modern people are not interested in fighting, sparring, shaui chiao, etc. All they want is some exercise and a little bit of self defense.
Sadly the people that want traditional training with fighting, sparring san da, san shou, shaui chiao etc etc, are under 10% of the entire MA world. We (the people who like fighting) are the minority. If you were to look at most all MMA, BJJ, Shuai Chiao, San Shou schools, first off is only 25% of these students like to fight or roll around. Only 5% will go to tournaments and of that 5%, less than 1% will go amateur or pro.
I don’t care what kind of fighting school you go to, not everyone in your school likes to fight all the time. it is just a fact of our modern times.
If you take some time you can find a good traditional or fighting school to give you what you want. But don’t go around saying TMA is dead cuz there are still many gems to be found out there hidden in the back yards or even in a strip mall!
ginosifu
We should take into account within the pugilistic world there have been numerous trends; for example, boxing has been king in the North America for over a hundred years; however, it always have been regulated to local sweaty gyms until the rises of white collar boxing which made it a viable commercial venture, e.g., LA Boxing.
After boxing is Greco-Roman/freestyle wrestling which has been nurture within academia. However, the first Asian art to take root in the North America was judo which again flourished within the local YMCA and small dojo within the major cities which was followed sixty years later by karate which due to our service men being station in Japan and Korea. However, it was until the “Kung Fu” crazy of the 70’s that karate dojo could be found in most community. Irony, it took gongfu/wushu shifu a while to profit on the crazy. However, the kung fu crazy only last until the next trend which was the ninja crazy. However, that one came and went quickly.
Therefore, MMA is another trend as a recreational activity; however, in due time it will it take the same route like boxing, judo, karate, and gongfu and be delegate to small gyms.
Ginosifu was very true in his statement the average person going to wuguan/mouh gwun isn’t interested in fighting…
[QUOTE=andyhaas;1128957]When I took aikido for a few months, and judo as well, they structure their classes with applications first rather than forms, and there were few complaints or people quitting. If karate/TKD/CMA followed this approach, they probably wouldn’t lose too many students.
Personally I don’t think I’d take another MA that did forms first, just because I think I’d die of boredom. The last one I took, baguazhang, I spent about 4.5 years just doing forms before the instructor taught me a lot of apps, and that was ENOUGH of that for FOREVER, I think.
In short, I don’t think it would be a problem for other MAs to follow a more MMA or aikido/judo type approach. It doesn’t have to be a sparring try to apply the application in sparring type thing. It could be a drills/application type of thing.[/QUOTE]
LOL! That is because both arts are practiced with a partner. Each individual technique IS a form in aikido and jujutsu. They look at “forms” differently. Except in Shotokan, which views a form similar to Chinese arts. And each control, lock, or throw is applicable for self-defense.
4.5 years before learning apps? My students start learning self-defense in about the first 4.5 minutes of their first class AND I emphasize forms.
Tcma is dead
TCMA IS DEAD!!!
Ok, now that those of you who believe the above sentence have heard this, you can go away and let those of us who don’t believe it get back to training and discussing things we can train.
TCMA has survived the karate craze of the 60s, the escrima craze of the 70s, the ninja craze of the 80s, the koryu craze of the 90s and the MMA fad currently going on and sputtering to a close.
We were training TCMA before them, we will continue training TCMA through the next fad that comes around.
So, run along sonny, nothing to see here. We are dead, all dead. Just festering corpses only made to smell sweeter by the scent of jow.
SHHHHHHHH, lie quietly till they go away and we can get back to business.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1129020]TCMA IS DEAD!!!
Ok, now that those of you who believe the above sentence have heard this, you can go away and let those of us who don’t believe it get back to training and discussing things we can train.
TCMA has survived the karate craze of the 60s, the escrima craze of the 70s, the ninja craze of the 80s, the koryu craze of the 90s and the MMA fad currently going on and sputtering to a close.
We were training TCMA before them, we will continue training TCMA through the next fad that comes around.
So, run along sonny, nothing to see here. We are dead, all dead. Just festering corpses only made to smell sweeter by the scent of jow.
SHHHHHHHH, lie quietly till they go away and we can get back to business. :D[/QUOTE]
More importantly, it survived the Qing Dynasty. 
[QUOTE=Ray Pina;1129001]
Wing Chun is alive but should die. The most over rated system. The best of it is pretty much all on the big screen today.[/QUOTE]
I would humbly correct you and say that GOOD Wing Chun should thrive, but as is the case with most other kung fu styles, the majority Wing Chun out there should die, because it is just an empty shell and one dimensional manifestation of this great, rich and profound style that is being taught to over 95% percent of the practitioners.
[QUOTE=andyhaas;1128963]I guess whenever I start thinking, “I want to take a MA.” I go out and look what’s out there, get frustrated, come on here, and think, “Okay, this is what I want.”
Like the baguazhang I took, if the instructor offered it with apps up front and I think we called it ‘roushou’ in aikido or judo, then that would be kindof ideal.
If there are 50 threads talking about the same thing, then maybe that’s because there’s a lot of people who want this. Not that the instructors will ever change, but hopefully if enough people ask / demand / walk away if they don’t offer, then they will listen.[/QUOTE] If forms are a bore, stop doing them. The only “form” I do is for generating adrenalin/chi in the split-second, for developing and maintaining crucial balance, for dynamic flex exercise to keep musculature/nerve strength/limber, for coordination in stepping/motion, and to feel finely tuned (muscle memory/breath control). Otherwise, no need.