are there REALLY any kung fu styles?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

Why?

I’m pretty sure that there are a couple of people reading this forum that can reflect on their kwoons and pick out:

A Shuai Jiao guy who’s good at striking and not all that good with his throws

A Tan Tui guy who prefers punching and throwing to kicking

A Hsing Yi guy who’s really good at kicking and destroying his opponent’s base with shin stomps and push kicks

I’ve found more than one Mantis player over the years who kicked more than punched

Eagle Claw players who weren’t all that good with qin na but who were really good at striking

etc.

I think a lot of times we have a tendency to think in stereotypes. Stereotypes are limiting, especially if the practitioner puts a stereotype above themselves when they are training.

But, I’ll have to concede a little bit. I’d say that there are underlying philosophies that define a style. They are going to have there own theories for application, but those theories aren’t as exclusive as people would like to think.

22

In my opinion, and by looking at what is there, I would have to say ‘yes’, there really are different styles and they are delineated by a few factors.

The method of transmission and the result of the transmission.

The shape and frame

The driving principles.

For instance, I know you don’t want to go into origins, but that is to miss an importanmt aspect because origin does play an effect in kungfu styles.

Military, Religious, healthful and so on. What was the original puyrpose of practice and what has that morphed into nowadays.

CLF for instance, even when viewed by a non practitioenrts is markedly different than Hung Kuen. Both of these are different than Wing Chun, all of them together are different than mantis.

There are majour styles that have many substyles below them.

Think of boxers. Many have different styles from each other, but they are all boxing. THat is the only common ground in my opinion.

You have styles that emphasize flow and lightness as the method of delivering the strikes. You have styles that emphasize smashing through and strong root.

You have styles that emphasize throws and locks instead of strikes. Ranges of attack etc etc etc.

Over time a person can become familiar with time and practice of more shapes, more methods and define what the style emphasis is.

By definition ‘style’ is the defining characteristics or attributes of something. Each type or category or even level of practice in kungfu will some times be the same as another and other times be completely stand alone. Effectiveness or ineffectiveness has not much to do with style, that would be a result of the method and absorption/expression of the style by the practitioner.

23

It doesn’t have to be a stereotype if it is dictated by the rule set or framework of the ‘style’. And there are plenty of people that only train or have only trained in one ‘style’. A good argument can be made that creating a sort of confines from which to draw from is limiting, but that is irrelevant to the argument of wether there are really kung fu ‘styles’. I would argue yes there are actual ‘styles’.

As I stated before, people always say “a punch is just a punch, and a kick is just a kick.” But if the punch is taught a very specific way, and the player only punches in that way, then it is a stylistic difference based on the ‘style’s’ framework. Another example, there are some kung fu styles I have seen whos’ staff foms and techniques are entirely single ended, meaning they have a grip on one end of the staff the entire time and use only the other end for striking. Then there are styles like Choy lay Fut that constantly use both ends for striking. The rule set of the first set of schools dictates that they fight using only one end of the staff, a rule set that helps to define the ‘style’.

24

Beginer level - a punch is “just” a punch, and a kick is “just” a kick.

Intermediate level - a punch is “not just” a punch, and a kick is “not just” a kick.

Advance level - a punch is “still” a punch, and a kick is “still” a kick.

25

YKW/JW;

Well said.

I enjoyed the videoclip of a teacher doing throw from Shuai Jiao and Zha Quan from Luo Han.

Whatever flows flows in the end.

A similar thread was discussed in EF.

:slight_smile:

26

You will need them all in a battle field. If you have learned all the above styles then what style are you going to use in combat?

Reply]
You will unconciously blend them all, and be expressing your OWN style. You can then train your students to move in your style, or help them find thier own.

27

No, there are no styles.

Well, it’s true that different styles train different ways.

But how you train has no effect whatsoever on the skills you develop, so that doesn’t matter.

The idea that training differently will change the way you fight is silly, because there is only one human body.

28

I hope you’re being sarcastic here Chris…otherwise, I would like 1 ounce of what you’ve been smoking for my upcoming christmas party. :smiley:

29

I’ve gotten a lot of heat over the years here for trying to impress the fact that I’ve taken a serious aproach to martial arts since I was a little kid… had a good Issin-Ryu teacher … found a good Hung Gar and Wing Chun teacher … and excellent S Mantis teacher — they all did things differently. Each style had its own aproach to fighting and developed different attributes thought there were certain areas of cross over.

Than I met my master 3 years ago and his technique was literally on another dimension. Completely flabergasted me (someone who’s seen a lot training for over 25 years) and I had to stop everything to learn it.

I took nearly 2 hours of trains to get to him in Chinatown, and then 2 hours back getting home at 1:30 a.m. on weeknights. I didn’t do that because I thought I could get the same thing at schools of every possible style locally.

Styles are different. And, some are better than others for combat.

30

No! In fact, I’d like to dispel some other common myths while I have the opportunity:

MYTH: There’s a continuum of skill involved in applying a technique.
TRUTH: Either you “have” a technique, or you don’t “have” it. This depends on whether or not you know a form that has the technique in it. If you do, then you have the technique, and if you don’t, then you don’t. This is why kungfu practitioners are almost always better then boxers, because boxers only have a few punches, whereas even in a single kungfu form there are thousands of punches, kicks and throws.

MYTH: Part of training martial arts involves developing power generation and sensitivity.
TRUTH: This is part of the over-intellectualization and fantasizing about martial arts. There is only one human body, and this means that everyone punches the same. My grandma punches the same as Mike Tyson – that is, at least if she “has” the same techniques, as described above.

MYTH: Part of training martial arts involves strategies for approaching combat.
TRUTH: Again, this is pure fantasy. Fighting is just: punch, kick, grab, throw. Just like in a computer game, you do a technique and it hits or it doesn’t. If it hits, then you have hurt your opponent. All martial arts have punch, kick, and so on; it’s all the same.

FAQ:

Q: I went to a seminar and the instructor had alot of interesting skills that he used to defeat me. I asked him how to develop those skills, and he said I would have to train the way he trained, which is very different than how I train now. I really just want to keep doing what I’m doing now. Am I really going to have to train the way he did to develop the skills he has?

A: NO! This is probably the biggest myth around these days in the martial arts. People who tell you this are just arrogant and think their style is the best. That’s why they say you have to train a certain way. In fact, no matter what you do, if you keep doing it long enough, you will become good at everything – even things entirely unrelated to what you do!

31

This kind of blows your argument.

technique is developed through practice and more importantly is learned through method. One may not have a skill at a given moment, but with practice, they could develop it and other attributes that will raise the percentage of times they successfully use the technique. The method used to do this is within a ‘style’.

You are making it sound like skill is innate, and in some it is, but it can be developed. Those attributes that are focused on in the method of development define a style.

32

The “fighting plan - how to enter and how to finish” is very important and you will need to have it even before the fighting start. Your plan will be influenced by the way you understand your styles.

If you don’t have a “plan” then you will box with a boxer, kick with Muay Thai guy, wrestle with a SC guy, and go down to the ground with a BJJ guy. You will fall into their game plan and not fight your fight.

33

Great post!

One human body, lots of ways to use it. One could argue, one optimum way to use it — and true, there was to be one most efficient way, but I don’t think anyone has found the ideal yet. But even that being the case, one body, one best way to use it, strategy and gameplan will be different.

A BJJ guy and pure Thai Boxer want different scenarios from a fight and will work to have their scenario play out.

34

I think we’re drifting off point a little…

What I’m arguing is that the only major thing that differentiates something like Eagle Claw and something like Shao-Lin is the body of forms that a person trains. There are points of emphasis in “styles” but they really are arbitrary. A person who does Shao-Lin can do qin na, an Eagle Claw stylist can kick and punch and make their body hard.

I can’t recall ever seeing a person who successfully free fights in anything whether it be point, continuous, or san shou, that I could say is definitely “internal” or “he’s a mantis guy”, or “he’s xing yi”, or “tai chi”, or “southern”, or “northern”, etc. The truth is that the most successful fighters are the one’s who have developed the most usable techniques. I’ve seen people attempt to fight within the confines of their styles, but they experience limited success. Mostly, if they are fighting within a defined manner (stand like this and only use these types of techniques in this particular way), it’s because they are forced to do that because it’s a rule for that particular fight or event.

Some would say that southerners do “X”, but I could bring up instances where they don’t, or northerners do “Y”, but again the stereotypes don’t hold up.

Trapping, chi, speed of the form, stances whether they be high or low, sensitivity, power generation, whether they kick a lot or little, secret techniques – these are the things that people say supposably define styles. Really? Why?

35

Because they have bought into the myth I exposed that how you train matters. In fact, it doesn’t.

Just like you point out: it doesn’t matter if you kick a little or kick alot, you’ll still develop the same kicking skills.

36

Well, part of the problem is that you’re referring to “form.” Exterior forms will be different and if all you do is train form and then throw wild punches … their will be no difference between Eagle Claw, Tiger Claw or Mantis.

But if you train principles and strategies, I would think they are different, though I only trained S. Mantis and now E-Chuan from a pure fighting point of view. My Hung Gar was heavy forms. Wing Chun was form and chi sau but the guys never fought, which is why I moved onto S. Mantis.

As far as never “seeing” it … then why don’t you move on to somewhere were you do see it? This is also the problem. There’s a lot of crap out there. You might not find “it” at the first training hall. Or the second. “It” might be 3 hours away. “It” might not be in Michigan at all. I don’t know.

37

I just know this is wrong from the experience that I’m having fighting right now. There will be a difference in quality due to the amount of training someone puts into a particular skill set and their will also be a difference in how they use it.

For example, TKD and Thai both train the round house kick. One is very fast, like lighting, and they can kick the rib and then change and kick the head very easily … but it doesn’t have that kind of kill power behind it. Because they train it for point sparring.

The Thai kick is a bit slower but more deliberate, and they look to tear your led apart with it.

Both are kicks but they are trained and used differently based on the way they train it.

38

If a TKD guy fight in kick boxing tournament or a Muay Thai guy fight in TKD point system tournament then they may change the way they used to do and adapt to the tournament rule.

Single technique may not be able to distinguish the style difference. The fighting strategy may be the best distinguish line.

You will never see a

  • Boxer used hip throw,
  • Muay Thai guy used ground technique,
  • Judo guy used hook punch,

to finish his opponent.

39

Sure, I’d love to move to the land of make-believe.

Where are these mystic San Shou guys that you know are definitely showing their Tai Chi? I’d love to see a demonstration of pure CLF on the lei tai mat. It would be Hollywooderific. :rolleyes:

Two guys step on the mat and battle. Which one does Chen and which one does Hung Gar? :confused:

40

Eagle claw, tiger claw and mantis hook are different.

Eagle claw requires more strength from the fingers.

Tiger claw requires more strength from the palm.

Mantis hook requires more strength from the wrist.

Are they the same?

Pondering.

:confused: