Apologies to Terence Niehoff...

duende · July 3, 2009, 1:05pm

[QUOTE=anerlich;945500]I’m most skeptical that the motivation for that thread’s creation was free of intent to ridicule. Indeed for you to do so would be breathtakingly out of character.

If you want ot lecture people on polite posting (along, it seems, with just about everything else), start with the guy you see in the mirror.[/QUOTE]

While I thought some of that thread was funny at times… clearly it was meant to cause not only ridicule but ill-will. Same with most of T’s posts. Needless insults, false accusations that he refuses to back up in person.

punchdrunk · July 3, 2009, 1:22pm

Not much difference between this and the checkered flag comments. I agree with a lot of what T says about training, just laughing this off will get rid of it quicker.
Here’s a famous clip, I got ceritified at this masters symposium and no it’s not racist.. fat english men can be great sifoo’s too, so don’t judge him till you fight him.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTUNhV_yMW0

Mr_Punch · July 3, 2009, 2:59pm

I’m confused. Which one was T? The bear? The chick by the shack? How come he didn’t get his norks out?

Ultimatewingchun · July 3, 2009, 3:18pm

“You keep trying to emotionally blackmail me into doing a video. I’m not going to do any video…You are either doing the WORK, mixing it up with competent people – or you are not.” (Niehoff)

***THIS is so interesting. “Emotional blackmail”, you call it. Humm! :rolleyes:

That’s exactly what you do constantly - as you are always challenging people around here to “PROVE” that they’re training is realistic. And no, because Robert Chu made a post saying that you work hard, have some skills, work with other guys regularly, blah, blah, blah", etc. (I paraphrased his post)…

that doesn’t cut it. You wash his back constantly, maybe he’s washing yours.

The fact is becoming clear, Niehoff, that you can’t back up your rhetoric. That’s why you won’t.

This being the case, you should seriously consider toning down your attacks and criticisms of other wing chun people.

SavvySavage · July 3, 2009, 3:20pm

I think this thread is hysterical and brings much needed humor to the oncoming economic depression.

t_niehoff,

Just out of curiosity do any of your current wing chun teachers train with pro mma/competent grapplers on a regular basis? I don’t know how old you are but I’m assuming your teachers are older than you so I’m wondering if they do what you are suggesting and that is why you respect them.

Ultimatewingchun · July 3, 2009, 5:24pm

You know, Terence, here’s the big problem with you. You make some very good points about training realistically, about the importance of constant sparring/fighting/testing - about working with and against guys who are trained in other arts, ie.- boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, kickboxing, mma, etc. (And you are not the only person on this forum who has ever posted about these things, not by a long shot).

But if you’re going to pound people around here over the head constantly about these things, and if you’re going to claim that wing chun training is basically useless, ie.- the forms, chi sao, fighting/sparring applications being taught as part of the wing chun curriculum, the wooden dummy, etc…and if you’re going to constantly rip into wing chun instructors, masters, grandmasters, etc.

as if you’re some sort of an authority about what does and doesn’t work in wing chun - then you’ve got to put a visual where your mouth is.

You’ve got to back up what you say with something that others can see. Because, for all we know, your martial art fighting/sparring/rolling skills could be pure garbage. In which case, what you constantly drone on about has to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt - if not ignored outright. This is why you really have to show us something.

Otherwise, the same ridicule that you inflict on others will come back to you. And when it does - you can’t take it.

osprey3883 · July 3, 2009, 6:16pm

Victor,
One word, PRICELESS.

Although Terrence claims to discuss peoples practices, views and ideas in a critical manner he constantly makes inuendos and accusations that have nothing to do with training. He challenges people to document what they do, yep produces no documentation of himself. He tells people how to train, yet ducks out on people who want to come see what he’s about.
When someone pokes fun at him he plays the everyone is picking on me card.
You’d think for all his “experience” as a lawyer he’d have some thicker skin and wouldn’t spend so much time talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Matt

t_niehoff · July 4, 2009, 1:25pm

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;945535]“You keep trying to emotionally blackmail me into doing a video. I’m not going to do any video…You are either doing the WORK, mixing it up with competent people – or you are not.” (Niehoff)

***THIS is so interesting. “Emotional blackmail”, you call it. Humm! :rolleyes:

That’s exactly what you do constantly - as you are always challenging people around here to “PROVE” that they’re training is realistic. And no, because Robert Chu made a post saying that you work hard, have some skills, work with other guys regularly, blah, blah, blah", etc. (I paraphrased his post)…

that doesn’t cut it. You wash his back constantly, maybe he’s washing yours.

The fact is becoming clear, Niehoff, that you can’t back up your rhetoric. That’s why you won’t.

This being the case, you should seriously consider toning down your attacks and criticisms of other wing chun people.[/QUOTE]

You don’t get it. To use grappling as an example: I don’t care whether or not YOU go down to the local BJJ school to see whether or not your Catch is any good. You can continue to live in fantasy land and train it with your students as far as I’m concerned. (Personally, I think you’re so ensconced in it nothing will every get you out of it). But, my point is that UNTIL YOU DO THAT – UNTIL YOU GO AND TRAIN WTIH GOOD, PROVEN, COMPETENT FIGHTERS – YOU DON’T REALLY KNOW. Training with scrubs, poorly trained guys, your students, etc. will never show you what is or is not good. Nor can you develop good fighting skills doing that. You can only see this by training with and against (sparring) good, proven fighters. That’s the only way.

A person either has that EXPERIENCE (training against competent people) or they don’t. They either seek it out or they don’t. It won’t help you in the least to see me doing that. You won’t get anything from my experience. You can see good grapplers on youtube to your hearts content. But that isn’t PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH GOOD, COMPETENT FIGHTERS. And that’s something you don’t have. Nor do you have it with good standup fighters, like MT or MMA fighters.

You have to seek that out. No one can give it to you. No one can explain it to you. You can’t get it from videos. YOU HAVE TO DO IT. YOU. No one else.

The people who DO that, and put in some time doing that, will understand what I am talking about. I know because they write me after their experience to tell me. If they, like you, however aren’t doing that, then all their theories, concepts, ideas, etc. are BASED on doing things with poorly skilled people, typically in unrealistic exercises or in sparring that is actually play-fighting. And not only that, but they can NEVER develop good skills themselves since it is the sparring with good people that is what develops skill. You don’t get significantly better by training against scrubs/students. Even if you train solid stuff, doing it against scrubs/students won’t develop good skills.

So, Victor, I don’t care what your views are or what the views of any of the folks who haven’t done THAT work. I don’t care about theories or the ramblings of grandmasters who haven’t done that work either – regardless of their selfpromotion. If you think this or that is good, or if you want to believe some authority, that is your perogative. But my reply will always be the same: go try it against competent fighters because that is the only way to know. Until I know someone has done that, I don’t believe what they have to say. Because their views aren’t informed by GOOD EXPERIENCE but by poor experience.

Ultimatewingchun · July 4, 2009, 4:06pm

And I don’t care what the views are of someone who, for all I know - since he makes sure no one ever gets to see him in action - could have very little skill of his own.

Stevehans · July 4, 2009, 5:56pm

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;945642]
So, Victor, I don’t care what your views are or what the views of any of the folks who haven’t done THAT work. I don’t care about theories or the ramblings of grandmasters who haven’t done that work either – regardless of their selfpromotion. If you think this or that is good, or if you want to believe some authority, that is your perogative. But my reply will always be the same: go try it against competent fighters because that is the only way to know. Until I know someone has done that, I don’t believe what they have to say. Because their views aren’t informed by GOOD EXPERIENCE but by poor experience.[/QUOTE]

You obviously do care otherwise you would be posting in the MMA forums instead of this fantasy fu one

I think most people really dont have a problem when you express (as you have above) an opinion about the merits of your training approach. This thread was never about the potential merits or otherwise of what you personally believe.

It was clearly a jab at your gut to get your reaction which worked brilliantly, ok it was personal and we all know that, nonetheless some here actually found it excruciatingly funny.

Why dont you PM Benny and his clan to see whether they appreciated your red and black chequered thread ? Off course we all believe it was just light hearted humour, which was really only to address the merits of critical thinking, and off course done WITHOUT ANY INTENT OR ILL WILL …:rolleyes:

I for one thinks Victor also deserves an honorary Sticky for this thread for its light hearted originality !

t_niehoff · July 4, 2009, 9:34pm

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;945655]And I don’t care what the views are of someone who, for all I know - since he makes sure no one ever gets to see him in action - could have very little skill of his own.[/QUOTE]

You still don’t get it, and that’s because you don’t want to. It doesn’t matter what I can do since I am not your teacher. I am not telling you or anyone how they should do WCK. Quite the opposite, I’m telling them that no one including me and including theirr grandmaster can tell them. I am telling them what they need to do to find out for themselves and what they need to do to develop skill in a fighting art – which is to say, they need to do what all the proven, competent fighters have done. There’s no secret to that. It’s only a secret to people who hide their heads in the sand.

It doesn’t matter how good a grappler I am. Whether I am great or competent or a scrub doesn’t change the fact that if someone wants to be a good grappler, they need to do what all good, proven grapplers have done (which is why they developed skill). It doesn’t change the fact that skill in grappling comes only from quality sparring – LOTS (hundreds of hours) of regular sparring against competent fightters. It’s the quality of the people you train/spar with that matters. ONLY the people who do that work with good fighters will get good. That isn’t my mere opinion, it is fact born out by all the evidence. All good grapplers will have done that work. Rolliing against your untrained students won’t make you a competent grappler.

And it’s the same for stand up and for clinch. It’s the same for WCK.

You may not want to listen to me, but this is what any good, proven fight trainer will tell you. But it is a message you don’t want to hear. And we all know why.

t_niehoff · July 4, 2009, 9:48pm

[QUOTE=Stevehans;945657]You obviously do care otherwise you would be posting in the MMA forums instead of this fantasy fu one
[/QUOTE]

WCK is not fantasy fu. But most of the people who practice WCK train it as fantasy fu.

I think most people really dont have a problem when you express (as you have above) an opinion about the merits of your training approach. This thread was never about the potential merits or otherwise of what you personally believe.

It was clearly a jab at your gut to get your reaction which worked brilliantly, ok it was personal and we all know that, nonetheless some here actually found it excruciatingly funny.

Some people, like Victor, do have a problem with my views – because those views completely undermine and refute their authority and postition.

I’m sure some people did find this whole thing funny. But the whole thing was childish and spiteful. Some people like stuff like that. The people who like childish and spiteful things are childish and spiteful themselves. Just like the people who like racist jokes are racist. Or the people who like fat jokes are insensitive. You seemed to find it funny. I am not surprised.

Why dont you PM Benny and his clan to see whether they appreciated your red and black chequered thread ? Off course we all believe it was just light hearted humour, which was really only to address the merits of critical thinking, and off course done WITHOUT ANY INTENT OR ILL WILL …:rolleyes:

Yes, it was irony meant to illustrate the silliness of using made-up history as a marketing device. I wasn’t making fun of Benny personally.

I for one thinks Victor also deserves an honorary Sticky for this thread for its light hearted originality !

As I said, I’m not surprised that you found it funny. I’m sure you are not alone. That’s the sad part.

Wayfaring · July 4, 2009, 11:00pm

Terence,

Your antics on this thread of being able to ridicule others and yet not yourself being able to take ridicule are as you say “intellectually dishonest”.

I don’t buy all your cr@p about ridiculing ideas vs. individuals. It’s all the same.

user24 · July 5, 2009, 2:30am

Hi Terence,

This video is for you, hope you can finish watching it, in fact it should be
for everyone to finish watching up till the ending and not stop halfway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJAu54pt8Jc&feature=related

This is a serious post, no joke intended

Liddel · July 5, 2009, 2:56am

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;945676]
You may not want to listen to me, but this is what any good, proven fight trainer will tell you. But it is a message you don’t want to hear. And we all know why.[/QUOTE]

I think almost every member here with more than 10 posts must have run into your mantra at one point or another, given the fact its posted over and over again. You’re the chain punch poster.

I dont disagree with alot of it though. what i do disagree with is this thread… do we have to lower the forum even more, do we have to lower VT anymore, did we have to single a guy out, one’s pov(s) and arguments should stand on thier own !

I dont know whats more annoying, the same rhetoric posted by T, or the fact there are so many horrible nutjobs posting vids of them doing ‘the real Wing Chun’ in shocking ‘fantasy’ fashion.

DREW

Ultimatewingchun · July 5, 2009, 4:24am

And again, the latest posts from you-know-who do not negate what was said earlier. The points made still stand. He’s in no position (anymore) to preach about anything without first providing some evidence that he himself is beyond mediocrity.

…

And I gotta say, this latest description, calling you-know-who THE CHAIN PUNCH POSTER…

that’s pretty funny!

Hendrik · July 5, 2009, 4:42am

[QUOTE=–;945692]Hi Terence,

This video is for you, hope you can finish watching it, in fact it should be
for everyone to finish watching up till the ending and not stop halfway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJAu54pt8Jc&feature=related

This is a serious post, no joke intended :)[/QUOTE]

,

Seriously, the training in the youtube got flaws in it. for example, this type of WCK training structure got a problem in the lower middle section.

So, it is a 40/60 stuffs, if the mma guy got beat down while at contact. that is no problem.

but if there is a slight chance the WCner get a hug on his lower middle section, then the chances of being taken down is big and that means almost guarentee lost.

So, the issue here is can the WCner Ko the mma crispily? if not a long drag fight is not helping the WCner.

Saying the above, I dont agree with Terence because I have heard that WCK has another type of power generation at real close contact, In my opinion, that type of WC structure needs to be evoke. Otherwise, it is a WCK 40% mmA 60 % chance of winning prediction. and that is no good, one has already lost 10% before even fight and the longer the fight drag the higher the mmA % of win will be.

But, if the WCK power generation per 1850 is evoke then it is atleast a 50/50 all the way because hungger range is also the range WCK is comfort and good at…

Remember, WCK is a Female art? if the Female art is so easy to get take down then it is no longer a female art because the female might as well get rape by anyone who hug her. 1850 power must come back otherise, we know it is 40% 60%.

and today, the 1850 type of mechanics are very rare to be seen as I have heard.

Those who claim to be the Most Original WCK from the Shao LIn…doesnt have it.

Just look at those who advertise the Most Original …etc are those who goes and learn BJJ before others. that clearly tell the truth isnt it ? if they have those stuffs they will evoke it. no need BJJ because WCK is a close range art and it is complete.

But then, i think, it might be better that the 1850 structure is missing in action once for all, because what’s good is promoting a structure to boost ego?

Just some thougths.

user24 · July 5, 2009, 4:59am

[QUOTE=Hendrik;945697],