Now you’ve gone and hurt his feelings. 
Ryu
First, I know my master is all too human. But, I judge him from what I have seen from my involvement in martial arts. My hun gar comes from under Frank Yee, my mantis comes from under Milton Chin and Gin Foon Mark – no two lightweights by far. Before that I was 100% Isshin-Ryu. I 've seen tons of breaking, I’ve seen a man catch arrows with his hands personally, I’ve seen alot. BUT, I have never seen anyone with such a no-nonsense, let’s get to the truth of the matter aproach as Mr. David Chan Bong.
I could be training elsewhere. Believe me, its not the 4 hour commute to and from class that has be knocking on his door. There is certainly a reason why I feel so proud to be training with him. Its not that his lineage is impeccable, not even that I have never seen a sifu so willing to accep another into his own place to challenge what he teaches, but that I agree with his aproach. He is a human being. I have never called anyone a master in my entire life, I am of the mind set that we all hold that piece of divinity within, that we are all a part of IT, but this man is a master, giving him the same title as other’s I’ve seen is an injustice.
Well, enough of that; back to Bruce Lee. To say he was as good as some of the traditional “masters”, I’d ask: who? As good as who? Who worth a $hit did he match hands with?
What I have seen, and I’m not talking the movies because that’s garbage, but training videos, was preposterous. His kicking was sloppy and technically low level. The methods he used to spar with Kareem was futile (and I acknoledge that he was beat with reach and size before he even began, but to attempt it, he took the aproach of someone I would not consider to have a high handle on fighting theory). His book, I honestly don’t think its that good. Just because its in print doesn’t make it right.
I have heard from a few that he had the fear of God put in him by Gin Foon Mark’s crew at MSG. I give the man respect in the sense he is a fellow martial artist and did the “sport” and “recreation” of karate a lot of good. What he did for gung fu, combat skill, I don’t think much.
I honestly save my praise for individuals like my teacher, people I find impressive, who stand out and bring something valuable to the table I want to sit at. I do not want the nicest fly kick, the most amazing nunchuk work, I certainly do not want a three inch punch (why so much room Mr. Lee?). What I want is to be a VERY capabale fighter. There are many people here that I enjoy sharing the day with, as well as seniors and training friends, so I will not say I want to be the best … But when I see a fellow artists, I look carefully. Do I think I can take them? If the answer is no I MUST find out why and then get to work.
RED…hmmmmmmmm that’s unusual…this is JUN FAN/JKD skool tecaching this??? I know when Bruce hopped around in some movies was more or less being playful imitating Mohammad Ali…when u’re sparring with boxing gloves u have a tendency to bounce a little. But most that demonstrate the JKD self defense tech are moving like TOMMY CRUTHERs…it’s a very forward attack. With certain side stepping motions.
I can’t fault Bruce Lee for having an ego. I’m sure he used it to survive in the racist times that were the sixties. I still consider him a positive roll model in many ways. Just a human one.
Note:
Intresting to note that no matter how much Mr Lee and his associates played down the Wong Jack Man encounter, In everything I read, Bruce mentions that expierence many times as a turning point in his training / the development of JKD.
I also think Bruce Lee is a good role model, as someone who “made it”, and in his case, as a Chinese American during those times, he showed what one can do if they focus. I would never take that away from him. But I will not hand him the crown of Martial Arts either.
Well Bruce did preach instant destruction in under 10 seconds…when he couldn’t do it with wong man jack…it took him 3 mins…he got ****ed…how was he gonna be able to beat guys much bigger than him when he had trouble beating someone relatively the same size???
Wong Jack Man’s claims are kind of out there. He says the fight lasted over 30min. I have never witnessed a fight out side of a ring last nearly that long. Personally the lee side makes more sense. Wong’s discription makes it sound like somthing from a movie. I think Wong made that version up o save face. Of course I wonder if the reason for the fight really was about teaching non chinese, Wong has allot of non chinese students, of course he could have just been following orders.
Anyway I am reluctant to believe anybody who comes forward saying they beat Lee. Since nobody said this while he was alive. It looks like people ae just trying to make themselves good by saying they beat the legend. (yes the legend is bigger than the man)
“To say he was as good as some of the traditional “masters”, I’d ask: who? As good as who? Who worth a $hit did he match hands with?”
I’d reply “who has your teacher matched hands with to be considered great”
You’d say “He has fought allot of challenge matches even though he doesn’t compete in the open circuit”
I’d say"same thing with Lee, he never fought tournaments but he fought allot of challenges in hong Kong and is acknowledged as being good by his sparring partners some of which became champions in full contact karate."
The evidence is there. Bruce may have not been the best but he was good. I’d say equal to and better than most of the “masters” today.
LEGEND - I am not sure who they are but I can find out if you are interested. There are a couple of schools around here, and we have a guy who is ex JKD in our class. He was with his JKD class for three years and says they moved around a lot and got the bouncing going often.
and I still think WJM won the fight…
Shaolin…I agree…the 30 min comment is kinda ridiculous…unless it was a full contact boxing glove match up. I don’t see how that can be possible! James Lee( RIP ) who witness the fight said it look like the point fighting that u see nowadayz…Bruce was chain punching but couldn’t score cause Wong Man would move or turn away…the only thing Bruce could do was a double leg takedown( grappling??? ) and pound Wong Man. It was like a HS playground fight…with each guy hitting each other like skool girls then one got really mad and slam the other to the ground LOL! So in this case…it is upsetting…Bruce thought he had adequate standup for the longest time…and now it showed he SUCKED…not to mention how was he going to fight against someone bigger and stronger. Also his cardio after 3 mins was winded! He never experienced this sparring with his wing chun mates cause they would never disengage…they would stay infighting. But Wong Man supposely moved around. Bruce from that point on work on weights and cardio and boxing training to CHASE down his opponents.
Red u live in MIN??? Well there is a hugh LIFETIME FITNESS center there that teaches JEET KUNE DO CONCEPT…do u see any trapping from those guys or more in a muy thai like fighting stance???
If you want to teach in NYC chinatown, as a monk from Shaolin recently wanted to do, you have to go before the Chintown sifus. My sifu is the head of that and the official tester. One does not get that position readily I would assume. And believe me, he desrves it. Since I’ve been with him he’s faced someone from Taiwan, I believe a Hung Gar man, as well as this Shoalin Monk, I’ll aslo put out there that my sifu is 60 years young and still has his door open. That alone is amazing. My sifu doesn’t brag, but the list I heard from one of his students was quite impressive. No need to list names here though – some I knew, so I’m sure you would as well.
Also, my teacher is my teacher. A great man, but when I’m here, or anywhere outside of his class, I speak for myself and stand on my own as a martial artist. My teacher is famous from his work. I’m working on my skills to address the next generation.
My teacher’s style is also e-chuan (which stands for evolution and energy fist, his creation from Ba Gua, Hsinh-i, Taiji and some styles from a few other sifu’s he’s studied with). I use the title Evolution Fist because I think its great. My technique has evolved so much the past 12 months, the past 18 to 20 months as well. Very different. And I’m proud to say better. I dare not claim energy yet, because I honestly do not have it. Working at it, experiencing things, but no where near energy in the sense that it is implied.
As for Bruce Lee. I was fererring to the trouble he found himself in when claiming Mantis in NYC. He thought the name would grab attention … and it did; just not the attention that he thought.
PS.
I don’t know the caliber of players you experience out where you live, but to put Bruce on a “masters” level, when you’ve never been in the same room as him, is quite revealing. I’m a martial arts junkie. I’ve been since 1978 and have read and seen everything I could get my hands on. I know there is nothing on Bruce that you have seen that I haven’t.
If you consider that a high level, you need to open up your martial world – honestly. Bruce Lee was a martial artists and an actor. It’s hard to say which he was better at, because neither of them are that standout-ish. He was succesful, but please, a master? Surely you can’t be serious.
hey guys, I am not sure where you heard teh story from, but a student of WJM put out a letter by WJM that explained the fight and why he had finally come out to talk about it. He didnt make it sound one sided, and he said it lasted between 10-12 minutes. In fact WJMs’ description of the fight lacks alot of ego. He said Mr Lee approached him, refused to bow and told him quietly that he was going to kill him. WJM realized Bruce was serious when he tried a finger jab to the eye. After that he felt like he was in a fight for his life, and he says he had to work hard for it. He does say that after a few minutes Bruce Lee seemed to get frustrated (this fits with who Mr Lee seems to be) and began to get sloppy and angry (also fits as in Mr Lees own words he had a temper). He fought frustratingly for a few more minutes before the fight ended. WJM said there was no serious damage done to eithers bodies, but Bruce was definitely frustrated and angry. WJM refused to talk about the fight afterwards. Mr Lee never said anything specific but did implied publicly that he had won the match. WJM continued to not speak of it. Soon after the fight Bruce began to build his own idea of what martial arts was. This can be taken several ways.
The way I see it, Bruce was young and he was ****y. He was convinced he was unbeatable, although he had not even finished his wing chun training. This shows that he was a good fighter, but mayeb a sloppy martial artist. If anyone has ever had the experience of feeling confident, and then meeting someone who was ten times better then you, it is frustrating, even if your ego isnt taht large…
Evolution Fist…it’s hard to say u think he’s not good either??? Since u were born at the same time i was etc…I have had the opportunity to train and go to seminars with several well known martial artists and seem some flakes and fakes. All it comes down to is what the hell can u do??? So instead of marketing your sifu…maybe u should represent him in a tourney? I’m sure there are several standup fighting tourneys in NYC…and then tell us about your experience…all u’re doing now is just tossing out your Sifu credentials…reminds me of my wing chun venture in WILLIAM CHEUNG cult. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…
Working on that right now.
I don’t undertand why you have brought my master into this. I do have tremendous respect for him, but this conversation has nothing to do with him. My comments are my own, based on my current understanding. Thought I do not fight in tournaments (I have enough plastic trophies thank you) I do fight Wing Chun players from the Free Mason lodge out here occasioanlly, as well as Hung Gar and S. Mantis players. Like I said, I would like to fight in the UFC or something similiar in about 2 years. I would not enter something like that without my teacher’s approval, for I would not want to tarnish a remarkable reputation.
You know my southern mantis teacher, who is a disciple of a pretty well know S. Mantis sifu in NY, actually recomended my sifu to me when I told him I was interested. I thought that was classy, he has my respect as well. When was the last time you heard of that? A sifu recomending another to his student.
I actually don’t think very highly of a lot of martial artists, and from your attitude, you have just made that list, but for those that do, they do get my full respect. These men are where we were and well beyond. I have and continue to work hard. These men must have put in insermountable amounts of time and money to reach where they are. I do respect that. At 60 years young, my sifu would kick your and my a$$ – quite literaly could take your life. As a martial artist, when another is good enough that he could kill me, well, there is something to be said for that.
Bruce used a double leg takedown and ground and pound to win???
This deserves a phone call! How dare he steal my methods!
Ryu
PS
I’m bowing out of this conversation now, because it has turned into a silly cyber fued. This is the element of the web I do not like. Disagreements turn into mouth boxing. I prefer the hands on method.
Re: PS
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I’m bowing out of this conversation now, because it has turned into a silly cyber fued. This is the element of the web I do not like. Disagreements turn into mouth boxing. I prefer the hands on method.
The proper term is “Tongue-Fu”.
Well my understanding is this…alot on this forum is all talk…they don’t compete or even spar…if u ever want to spar in SAN SHOU which is the greatly respected CMA full contact TEST. You’re welcome to come down to DC where guys like SHAOLIN TIGER and I have. I have had the opportunity to train with several CMA characters and BJJ guys etc…I could say my dad can beat your dad or my sifu can beat your sifu etc…it’s just silly. The point is what can YOU do??? I doubt u’ll be entering the UFC or any event any time soon…
“but please, a master? Surely you can’t be serious”
Never said he was a master, I don’t believe in the word. To say you’ve mastered somthing means you 've done all you can to imporve and well…
Anyway what I was saying is that he was equal to many who today are considered “masters”.
“I don’t undertand why you have brought my master into this.”
We brought your master into this because every time you post it’s about how your teacher is like god. My point in bringing your teacher into this was also that you respect his skills based on his challenge matches. We can’t verify the fights or the outcome of them, just like most of Bruce lee’s fights which you say he looses respect because of hmmm..
EF- You seem to have allot of ego about who and where you train. I understand cause you found somthing new and we all go through that phase at first. I hate to be the one to tell you that NY chinatown is not the world, there is allot out there that you don’t know about. You can take this how you want but IMO you sound like a very imature martial artist and that’s strange considering the length of time you say you spent in the martial arts.
Now I am also bowing out cause this is just all talk and we will probally never meet so who cares anyway.