Amazing catch wrestling vid

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
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[QUOTE=Frost;1018917]Sak was a free style wrestler and judo guy before starting catch, Josh’s main teacher was a BJJ blackbelt, so thats what you consider strict catch is it?

And we are still waiting for a list of strict catch guys who have competed, in this resurgence of yours they must be all over the place and simple to name…[/QUOTE]

***AND THIS is a very fast-and-loose rendition of the facts. Sakuraba had some jiu jitsu training, alright…but his MAIN training was in cacc - for he ALWAYS referred to himself as a WRESTLER; in addition, his cacc training first started with Takada, and then with Billy Robinson. Furthermore, his style of “grappling” is unmistakably catch - the same as Royce Gracie’s style could be said to be unmistakably BJJ.

And ditto for Josh Barnett - who will be the first to tell you that he’s a catch wrestler, that what he’s taken from Erik Paulson was MAINLY the cacc that Erik Paulson showed him…and that his style also represents MAINLY what he picked up from studying the training vids of Tony Cecchine - and what he learned directly from Billy Robinson.

Enough bull5hit about guys like Sakuraba and Barnett. That stuff just doesn’t fly anymore.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1018928]Playing devil’s advocate, but what is “strict” BJJ? What the Gracie family does is a mixture of old school judo, wrestling and sambo (to state the least). Certainly BJJ has been open to incorporating elements of other things if they work

Sak’s background is definitely wrestling (free style), but free style was originally a form of catch as catch can… according to the guys at LA Jiu Jitsu (bas rutten and the gang), when Sak was in the US around the early days of pride he had NO guard game at all. Officially he lists his style as “UWF” which if you know what that means…

Barnett loves to sell the pro wrestling gimmick, personally he and I have disagreed in this area, and yeah, working with Paulson he has been exposed to A LOT of BJJ, but his game is indeed influenced by wrestling / catch

Today and especially in MMA, there is nothign “pure”[/QUOTE]

there may or may not be strict BJJ, but there are guys who have trained purely in a BJJ school under guys who are only BJJ blackbelts and have competed and done well, has any ctach guy actually done this?

As someone said its all grappling but claiming something is special, unique or going to be the next great thing when only a handful of people trained in it have done well and most of them have trained in another art to make what they do work is bll***

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1018928]Playing devil’s advocate, but what is “strict” BJJ? What the Gracie family does is a mixture of old school judo, wrestling and sambo (to state the least). Certainly BJJ has been open to incorporating elements of other things if they work

Sak’s background is definitely wrestling (free style), but free style was originally a form of catch as catch can… according to the guys at LA Jiu Jitsu (bas rutten and the gang), when Sak was in the US around the early days of pride he had NO guard game at all. Officially he lists his style as “UWF” which if you know what that means…

Barnett loves to sell the pro wrestling gimmick, personally he and I have disagreed in this area, and yeah, working with Paulson he has been exposed to A LOT of BJJ, but his game is indeed influenced by wrestling / catch

Today and especially in MMA, there is nothign “pure”[/QUOTE]

That was my counter in my head (me playing devils advocate to myself) , and why I didn’t continue the argument.

Erik and Josh are CSW and Josh more recently seems to say CSW more than catch. The fact is Catch alone covers very little (in its original form)..

That being said Helio Gracies original “BJJ” was very limited in my not so humble experience. BJJ has evolved, and thats why you have people training with a wide variety of other styles and bringing that in.. and competing in high levels.

USJA will be doing allot of BJJ and No Gi in the future and I see that as a major direction. Pretty much majority of people are interested in getting better (no matter the flag the technique flys under). Sometimes egos flare up when you visit the wrong place but for example.. my teacher trained in a Judo gym in Brazil and I know for a fact MANY brazilians doing BJJ do that also..

Does that mean they all have great judo? nope, but at min they are experiencing new things and competing. Thats what Josh is doing also, and I respect him for it.

The fact is that catch people mostly live in a padded room, and refuse to compete. (not CSW people). They claim that the technique will kill, destroy, and won’t work in competition.

the other fact is that the best grapplers compete, and even crapy ones do too (myself in that second category).. so I do love the opinion from the corner that doesn’t really train, and doesn’t compete.

Catch is dead wake up, you need to mix it other styles to really be a rounded grappler. Thats why many BJJ fighters train Judo or wrestling or come from a wrestling background.

enough “bull5hit” about the only two guys in the world that come from a “catch”. I love catch, but you need to mix it up inorder to be relevant. The people I meet that have good skills that claim to be catch are nothing more than great wrestlers from high school or college that learn a few submissions (all of which I see in modern BJJ)..
great you could call yourself a BJJ fighter too.. its really semantics that mean nothing.

thats all I have to say about that, because I have to spend some time on the mat . I unlike some groups of people I compete and I"m trying not to look too stupid Saturday at NAGA.

as a point I’m more impressed with some of the American Sambo stuff than the catch stuff. They have better leg locks, and have all the “american” wrestling, mixing judo and crazy judo variations..
Sambo is some nasty stuff. If I had to choose two or three styles to train on a normal basis it would be BJJ, and Sambo/Judo. The Sambo guys have some nice no gi variations too.

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[QUOTE=Frost;1019002]there may or may not be strict BJJ, but there are guys who have trained purely in a BJJ school under guys who are only BJJ blackbelts and have competed and done well, has any ctach guy actually done this?

[/QUOTE]

Sak’s background is free style, which is a direct descendent of catch as catch can, he then trained “UWF” style which is basicly Muay Thai and catch wrestling (via Gotch)… I’d say he “done well” in his MMA career :smiley:

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There’s not just two guys in the world doing cacc…it’s two so far who’ve competed in mma with it - who look upon themselves as catch wrestlers…(along with hybrid catch guys like Erik Paulson and Matt Hume).

And now Randy Couture is trying his hand at it.

And BJJ black belt/mma guy Roli Delgado is now training in cacc with Billy Robinson on a weekly basis down in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Just keep watching.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1019045]There’s not just two guys in the world doing cacc…it’s two so far who’ve competed in mma with it - who look upon themselves as catch wrestlers…(along with hybrid catch guys like Erik Paulson and Matt Hume).

And now Randy Couture is trying his hand at it.

And BJJ black belt/mma guy Roli Delgado is now training in cacc with Billy Robinson on a weekly basis down in Memphis, Tennessee.

Just keep watching.[/QUOTE]

so guys with grappling expereince are adding some bits to their game, what a surprise ;)again where are the guys only trained in catch?

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1019041]Sak’s background is free style, which is a direct descendent of catch as catch can, he then trained “UWF” style which is basicly Muay Thai and catch wrestling (via Gotch)… I’d say he “done well” in his MMA career :D[/QUOTE]

In the same way can we argue that guys trained in BJJ and judo are strict judo guys since BJJ is a direct descendent of judo?:smiley:

I was thinking of strict catch guys without a freestyle back ground, like takada :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Frost;1019002]there may or may not be strict BJJ, but there are guys who have trained purely in a BJJ school under guys who are only BJJ blackbelts and have competed and done well, has any ctach guy actually done this?[/QUOTE]

were all their training partners purely bjj guys as well?

remember when i noted fedor doesnt do bjj you claimed he trained with people who do to make it seem like this is how he manages to do with out it

by that logic if these "pure"bjj guys are training with guys who know other gappling arts than they arent pure bjj guys because they are picking up some non bjj stuff in theory

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[QUOTE=goju;1019057]were all their training partners purely bjj guys as well?

remember when i noted fedor doesnt do bjj you claimed he trained with people who do to make it seem like this is how he manages to do with out it

by that logic if these "pure"bjj guys are training with guys who know other gappling arts than they arent pure bjj guys because they are picking up some non bjj stuff in theory[/QUOTE]

actually i never said anything about pure BJJ, what i said was these guys have trained purely in a BJJ school, BJJ gys are exposed to lots of things, but being explosed, and having years of training in wrestlling (like Sak) or training under a b
BJJ blackbelt (like Josh) are two different things/ the point hundreds of GJJ guys have done fine in competition when only training in a BJJ class, where are all the catch guys doing the same?

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[QUOTE=Frost;1019058]hundreds of GJJ guys have done fine in competition when only training in a BJJ class, where are all the catch guys doing the same?[/QUOTE]

you realize not everyone trains in different arts because they view they have to or must to round out their game dont you?

like myself for example i started off in boxing and i didnt start learning other things like karate or tkd or recently mma for any specific reason. I just did it because it was available to me not because i wanted or felt i had to expand my game..

my attitude with martial arts is if its available take it and with that atitude ive learned different things and it doesnt make me less of a boxer as a result

boxing was fine on its own i just added things because they were there to take

catch wrestling is no different

just because someone trains in something else doesnt mean that catch isnt good enough or cant be used on its own

theres a wide variety of reasons people cross train after all

as far as the gjj guys are concerned if their partners come form different backrounds and bring that into their workouts than they arent doing just bjj even if its rollling or working on techniques yadda yadda yadda

the minute youre practicing on dealing with something out side of your system or exchanging other techniques then youre not just doing your style your stepping out of it

just being strict bjj or any art for that matter would be someone only learning that art and training only with partners who know only bjj and nothing else

and i thinks thats rare most people who are only labeled as bjj guys have usually picked up other things down the road in their training

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[QUOTE=Frost;1019054]so guys with grappling expereince are adding some bits to their game, what a surprise ;)again where are the guys only trained in catch?[/QUOTE]

***YOU have to start somewhere. Like Sak, who had a jiu jitsu and free style wrestling background, went to cacc…and never looked back.

Barnett started with free style wrestling, found Paulson, found cacc…and never looked back.

Now look, before this goes down an all-too-familiar foolish road, jiu jitsu offers a few subs that weren’t part of original catch, (ie.- catch wrestlers have always referred to the arm bar as the “Japanese” arm bar)…and some guard work as it was developed by the Gracies in particular have elements that good catch wrestlers of today have picked up on…and some other things…

but to try and give the impression that cacc is merely something that can offer “little bits and pieces” to grapplers is a f u c k i n g joke…and is clearly indicative of an insecure and jealous way of thinking.

Cacc is a real art that offers quite a lot all on its own…quite a lot.

The fact that so many people still have a hard time getting over that, even now (2010) is not my concern.

I couldn’t care less.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1019093]***YOU have to start somewhere. Like Sak, who had a jiu jitsu and free style wrestling background, went to cacc…and never looked back.

Barnett started with free style wrestling, found Paulson, found cacc…and never looked back.

Now look, before this goes down an all-too-familiar foolish road, jiu jitsu offers a few subs that weren’t part of original catch, (ie.- catch wrestlers have always referred to the arm bar as the “Japanese” arm bar)…and some guard work as it was developed by the Gracies in particular have elements that good catch wrestlers of today have picked up on…

but to try and give the impression that cacc is merely something that can offer “little bits and pieces” to grapplers is a f u c k i n g joke…and is clearly indicative of an insecure and jealous way of thinking.

Cacc is a real art that offers quite a lot all on its own…quite a lot.

The fact that so many people still have a hard time getting over that, even now (2010) is not my concern.

I couldn’t care less.[/QUOTE]

insecure and jealous…coming from a catch guy (with all that styles baggage) who has never competed thats rich:)

yes you have to start somewhere, but the fact that no one can put their hand up and say look all i have really trained is catch in a catch school and this is my comp record and its very good speaks volumes about the art. People just do judo and compete well, the same with sambo and BJJ, how come no straight catch guys are out there tearing it up?

its a simple question who are the catch guys doing well in grappling/MMA

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1019093]***YOU have to start somewhere. Like Sak, who had a jiu jitsu and free style wrestling background, went to cacc…and never looked back.

Barnett started with free style wrestling, found Paulson, found cacc…and never looked back.

Now look, before this goes down an all-too-familiar foolish road, jiu jitsu offers a few subs that weren’t part of original catch, (ie.- catch wrestlers have always referred to the arm bar as the “Japanese” arm bar)…and some guard work as it was developed by the Gracies in particular have elements that good catch wrestlers of today have picked up on…and some other things…

but to try and give the impression that cacc is merely something that can offer “little bits and pieces” to grapplers is a f u c k i n g joke…and is clearly indicative of an insecure and jealous way of thinking.

Cacc is a real art that offers quite a lot all on its own…quite a lot.

The fact that so many people still have a hard time getting over that, even now (2010) is not my concern.

I couldn’t care less.[/QUOTE]

If you are comparing what people called “gracie” JJ to what Josh and Erik are doing then you are off in another la la land. The Term Gracie JJ only exist if you train under a gracie.. then its Gracie JJ.. or Machado JJ or 10th planet JJ.. but BJJ as a whole has evolved allot since Royce gracie first fought in the UFC. You could make the argument that so is “catch” for example CSW. The only issue with that is, really CSW is a mix of several styles not just Catch..

Each area has its own culture and if you believe that BJJ is only about jumping guard, then you are off in la la land. Catch is great, my only issue with them (some) is they closely resemble all the BS aspects of TCM. You have guys that don’t have the experience or skill making videos.. and you have people claiming the techniques are too dangerous for randori and competition.

Sak is great and I am a big fan.. but he has his limits. Josh is a character you can’t hold on to two guys and say See see look catch is alive and well its making a come back.. The great thing is CSW certified teachers are really everywhere (good and bad).. but again if you believe that the CSW curriculum is catch wow.. you are clearly wrong. I happen to know two certified schools/teachers.

Erik himself is ranked as black belt under Rigan Machado in BJJ.

Randy couture a catch wrestler?? :smiley: if thats the case then he is also a 10thplanet JJ fighter too.

Ultimatewingchun, stick to something you know William Chueng’s Wing Chun.

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[QUOTE=Frost;1019055]In the same way can we argue that guys trained in BJJ and judo are strict judo guys since BJJ is a direct descendent of judo?:smiley:

I was thinking of strict catch guys without a freestyle back ground, like takada :)[/QUOTE]

Funaki doesn’t have a free style background and also learned “UWF style” and you could argue that he gave Rickson his toughest fight so far (I mean, that we can find, verify and SEE)

I think Funaki (and other Pancrase guys) would have beaten a lot of their contemporary UFC people, I mean Funaki in UFC 1-5 would have made it to the finals

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Catch wrestling as its own entity pretty much ceased to exist in the early to mid 1900’s. It evolved into free, folk and pro(show) wrestling. All of them can trace their roots to catch wrestling and pieces of the style continue to live in all of them.

During the mid 1900’s there were no regular competitions being held in catch wrestling and no catch wrestling organizations except perhaps in some backwater areas. It was definitely not attracting the top competitors.

What is now being taught as catch is a reconstruction of a style that used to exist based on the fragments that still exist in its descendants, documentation in books and film; and mixed with techniques and strategies from the new sub grappling styles.

However, none of the current high level grappling competitions recognize the most predominant technique for winning a catch match, the pin, as valid. So, even if they call it catch it is not the same without the pin. The strategy changes when laying on your back is an accepted defense. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.

SHORT VERSION:
Catch wrestling without the pin isn’t catch wrestling. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1019045]There’s not just two guys in the world doing cacc…it’s two so far who’ve competed in mma with it - who look upon themselves as catch wrestlers…(along with hybrid catch guys like Erik Paulson and Matt Hume).

And now Randy Couture is trying his hand at it.

And BJJ black belt/mma guy Roli Delgado is now training in cacc with Billy Robinson on a weekly basis down in Memphis, Tennessee.

Just keep watching.[/QUOTE]

Randy isn’t “trying his hand” at catch. His present grappling coach (Neil Melanson) is trained and accredited in Hayastan.

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[QUOTE=m1k3;1019119]Catch wrestling as its own entity pretty much ceased to exist in the early to mid 1900’s. It evolved into free, folk and pro(show) wrestling. All of them can trace their roots to catch wrestling and pieces of the style continue to live in all of them.

During the mid 1900’s there were no regular competitions being held in catch wrestling and no catch wrestling organizations except perhaps in some backwater areas. It was definitely not attracting the top competitors.

What is now being taught as catch is a reconstruction of a style that used to exist based on the fragments that still exist in its descendants, documentation in books and film; and mixed with techniques and strategies from the new sub grappling styles.

However, none of the current high level grappling competitions recognize the most predominant technique for winning a catch match, the pin, as valid. So, even if they call it catch it is not the same without the pin. The strategy changes when laying on your back is an accepted defense. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.

SHORT VERSION:
Catch wrestling without the pin isn’t catch wrestling. This is why catch is NOT the grappling of the future.[/QUOTE]

***HORSE5HIT…

Who says that cacc has to have a pin, or else it’s not catch??? :rolleyes:

And as for it ending around 1950…nice try to ignore its re-emergence within the last 12 years or so. :cool:

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1012917]This vid is from 1930…and in it, 1924 Silver Medalist Nat Pendelton really shows some skills.

The vid is 8:30 long…and in the first part he’s boxing with someone…but then at around 3:40 in the vid things start to get really interesting as he takes on a boxer as he just wrestles…and then the last sequence is an out-and-out catch wrestling match with someone who’s un-named.

We’re talking some very interesting stuff here: covering up while coming in on a puncher into single leg takedowns with sweeps…sliding leg-on-leg takedowns…arm bar submissions…top wristlock submissions…double wristlock submissions…and double wristlocks into roll-over takedowns and then into a headscissors…front headlocks and escapes…side headlock takedowns…Frank Gotch-like toehold submisisons…double arm scissors…some very skillful bridging, escapes, roll outs, and reversals, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVsoQuxD0Ac[/QUOTE]

The most telling thing about this whole thread is Victor thinking that that clip is somehow amazing.

Plus the fact that, since he has never actually grappled against decent grapplers, he has no clue which things in that demo clip are workable and which ones are bs.

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As always, the same old seriously insecure bjj guys (and you know who your are) just can’t resist coming on any thread that praises cacc wrestling…and try to talk smack.

What the f_ck else is new!!! :stuck_out_tongue: :cool:

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Victor, I have nothing against catch wrestling. In fact I trained and competed in folkstyle wrestling which is a direct descendant of catch.

All 3 styles that came out of the old catch have one thing in common. Win by pin. Pro wrestling, while being show rather than shoot is the one with the closest rules to cacc and the pin plays a central role there especially from back in the 60’s when they at least used to pretend it was real.

BTW, what style of wrestling or grappling have you competed in?