All these movements are the same

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
41

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872182]Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren’t correct:

I’ve been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it’s not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it’s not videos I am comparing, it’s real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.[/QUOTE]

Not that I care but out of curiosity you mean you’ve studied with actual practitioners of the systems you comment about or you have self learnt ? It would interesting to know where and which lineage of Ba Fan Shou, Tong Bei Quan, Taizu Changquan, Taizuquan, Taijiquan, Chaquan, Fanzi, etc…that you have learnt ? Did not know such systems were in the widespread other than here in China.

42

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;872260]I thought that was obvious…[/QUOTE]

Guess not to some people, I am very tired of people that know absolutely nothing about me, how I trained for decades EVERY DAY for 7 days a week, and actually learned the sets that I write about.
I wouldn’t be able to say I think something is related to something else if I didn’t know the sets I was comparing in and out.

43

[QUOTE=mawali;872078]Excellent point!
Perhaps when the folk Chen village encountered this tongbei variant, they saw a way to integrate the basics (or what they saw as such) and got rid of ‘unnecessary’ hand flailing? too flowerey movements (at least shortened them) and lowered the stance(s).
The more astute the practitioner, the more they could extract and delete parts os a form to fit their own system! Just look at the finished Chen family style and how it engendered the many variants today.[/QUOTE]

This set amazes me:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

People see it are shocked. But Hongdong Tong Bei has the same sets too.

Anyways, until we know for sure which came first the tong bei version of Chen TJQ version, then ?

Dr. Yan and other researchers have uncovered many documents from long ago that are pointing to a tong bei origin for Chen TJQ.
In 1991, a quan pu of Chen You Ben’s was discovered and he clearly shows 4 sets of tong bei that Chen TJQ is derived from. Gives the names for the movements and postures, everything.

And, Tai Zu Chang Quan is one of the 4 sets.

Now there is a new mystery: how did Tong Bei from Henan that comes from Dong family get the same set that is known as Tai Zu Chang Quan at Shaolin?
Tong Bei Quan calls the set: “tai zu nan tang” instead.

Either way, it is proof of what my articles have been saying all along, that the Chen Yi Lu set uses the Tai Zu set as a frame to hang it’s theories on, not the General Qi book as it is assumed erroneously by many.

44

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872182]Lest someone misunderstand this and make assumptions that aren’t correct:

I’ve been practicing and learning CMA since 1975.

All the forms that I post about, I have actually learned and I only post about material that I have done at least for 10 years of time.

So, it’s not that I am 'Comparing videos", I am comparing what I do in one form to what i do in another form.

I may show it to you via a video, but it’s not videos I am comparing, it’s real movements and postures in actual sets that I have hands on experience with for at least a decade.[/QUOTE]

Sal,

Learning forms from here and there do not count, who or which practitioners or lineage did you study with since styles like Tongbeiquan, Ba Fan Shou, Taizuquan, Cha Quan, Yanqinquan, Chuojiao.etc…I do not think you have learnt them (Especially Chuojiao and Bafanmen or I would know) as complete systems nor under practitioners. Since many are only practiced here in China or Asia…It is likely you self learnt which is not the same since the root would be empty and you would not have so many gaps in the theories and histories of each.

Regards
Wu Chanlong

45

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871500]Yes that Yue Fei, it wasn’t him necessarily, it was his troops, which is why that style is called Yue Jia, Yue Family Boxing.

They have five elements, 6 harmonies, 10 (12) animals, etc., 6 harmony spear, etc.

Yue Fei being the grand ancestor would make a LOT more sense as this is the second wave of hakka, the ones that came south after the Northern song was defeated.

(the Zhao clan’s movement to other parts of china is known, its not the same as this wave of Hakka emigration.)[/QUOTE]

Sal,

Yuejiaquan is from Yuefei’s descendants (sons) not troops, that is why it is propagated in Hubei and Jiangxi provinces, I was in both Wuxue and Jiujiang as I lived nearby in Nanchang (which used to be called Hongzhou in the SOng dynasty and one of the frontiers during the Northern and Southern Song situation…

Cheers
Wu Chanlong

46

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;871322]Royal Gian;

First 8 Rows of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou = first half of Tai Zu Chang Quan!

First 1 in both are different except they have the same salute with embracing movements.

Next 2-4 rows in Yue Shi maps to 2 - 7 postures in TZ

next 5-8 rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou maps to 13-19 in TZ.

(it skips the same moves 8-12 that Tai Ji skips from TZ Chang Quan!)

Which means, using my chart I can map out the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou to Chen Tai Ji Yi Lu and to Shaolin Rou Quan and to Tong Bei.

Wonder what is going on here?

I’ll check out the second series of 8 and see if they match the rest of the TZ Chang Quan set![/QUOTE]

Note that the Ba Fan shou that you are referring was modified and redeveloped by Liu dekuan (he created a lot of things), and that was influenced by his other styles so the tightness and power of the originals have been modified.

As per the history of Bafanquan…http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/lineage.html

The eagles claw lianquan (and later Xingquan) are also derived from the same allbeit different.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA

The Bafanshou of bafanquan as included in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/methodology.html
has some distinct differences…

regards,
Wu Chanlong

additionally these are also bafanmen:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xwP-Ckq8QMY
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CeR6rsRYNuo

47

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;872518]This set amazes me:
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=Is7fCc5wef8

People see it are shocked. But Hongdong Tong Bei has the same sets too.

Anyways, until we know for sure which came first the tong bei version of Chen TJQ version, then ?

Dr. Yan and other researchers have uncovered many documents from long ago that are pointing to a tong bei origin for Chen TJQ.
In 1991, a quan pu of Chen You Ben’s was discovered and he clearly shows 4 sets of tong bei that Chen TJQ is derived from. Gives the names for the movements and postures, everything.

And, Tai Zu Chang Quan is one of the 4 sets.

Now there is a new mystery: how did Tong Bei from Henan that comes from Dong family get the same set that is known as Tai Zu Chang Quan at Shaolin?
Tong Bei Quan calls the set: “tai zu nan tang” instead.

Either way, it is proof of what my articles have been saying all along, that the Chen Yi Lu set uses the Tai Zu set as a frame to hang it’s theories on, not the General Qi book as it is assumed erroneously by many.[/QUOTE]

Reply]
Just a collection of thoughts, and thoought provoking questions:

One possibility, the Shaolin Tai tzu set comes from the Tong Bei system because Tong Bei was used extensively by the military at the time. Maybe it was a key set to the Tong Bei system Zhao and all his Generals knew through the military?

Now, we may find that the Tai tzu set, IF it originally comes from this Tong Bei line may, have been named because Zhao Kuang Yin developed it (thus adding it to the line), and OR someone close to him learned it shortly after Shaolin developed it, and it got passed on as part of that persons Tong bei. OR maybe it became a standard set taught to the early Song Military after Shaoliin developed it and it was just taught with all the Tong bei the military was doing at the time?

Would this mean it is actually a version of that time period’s Tong bei and not really a new style?

Question, did Zhao Kuang Yin know the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set? Did Shaolin teach it to him after it was developed? OR did he maybe have a bigger hand in it’s creation than we think?

Once it was developed, who would have it been taught to?

Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin didn’t invent a style at all, and all that happened is Shaolin just recorded the same military Tong Bei style he and all his Generals did, and it just got named after him because of that?

In other words, there really is no Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at all, it’s just a variant of Tong Bei that Zhao Kuang Yin happened to know and it was prominent in the particular military he was a part of. It just got a famous name because he taught part of it to Shaolin, and later sent Generals to teach them more…so it got named after him.

48

[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;872540]Reply]
Just a collection of thoughts, and thoought provoking questions:

One possibility, the Shaolin Tai tzu set comes from the Tong Bei system because Tong Bei was used extensively by the military at the time. Maybe it was a key set to the Tong Bei system Zhao and all his Generals knew through the military?

Now, we may find that the Tai tzu set, IF it originally comes from this Tong Bei line may, have been named because Zhao Kuang Yin developed it (thus adding it to the line), and OR someone close to him learned it shortly after Shaolin developed it, and it got passed on as part of that persons Tong bei. OR maybe it became a standard set taught to the early Song Military after Shaoliin developed it and it was just taught with all the Tong bei the military was doing at the time?

Would this mean it is actually a version of that time period’s Tong bei and not really a new style?

Question, did Zhao Kuang Yin know the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set? Did Shaolin teach it to him after it was developed? OR did he maybe have a bigger hand in it’s creation than we think?

Once it was developed, who would have it been taught to?

Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin didn’t invent a style at all, and all that happened is Shaolin just recorded the same military Tong Bei style he and all his Generals did, and it just got named after him because of that?

In other words, there really is no Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at all, it’s just a variant of Tong Bei that Zhao Kuang Yin happened to know and it was prominent in the particular military he was a part of. It just got a famous name because he taught part of it to Shaolin, and later sent Generals to teach them more…so it got named after him.[/QUOTE]

Tongbei is not that old…so the above is not plausible

49

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;872538]Sal,

Yuejiaquan is from Yuefei’s descendants (sons) not troops, that is why it is propagated in Hubei and Jiangxi provinces, I was in both Wuxue and Jiujiang as I lived nearby in Nanchang (which used to be called Hongzhou in the SOng dynasty and one of the frontiers during the Northern and Southern Song situation…

Cheers
Wu Chanlong[/QUOTE]

I know that there is the Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.

Scattered in Henan and other provinces there are also other styles called Yue Jia Quan or very similar names that come from other people that claim that their style comes from troops of Yue Fei, such as Niu family in Henan.
The material of these styles is not too different from Yue Jia Quan that comes from his sons lineage.
Some are a lot different.

50

[QUOTE=Shaolin Master;872539]Note that the Ba Fan shou that you are referring was modified and redeveloped by Liu dekuan (he created a lot of things), and that was influenced by his other styles so the tightness and power of the originals have been modified.

As per the history of Bafanquan…http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/lineage.html

The eagles claw lianquan (and later Xingquan) are also derived from the same allbeit different.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGIkkgMuXA

The Bafanshou of bafanquan as included in the below
http://www.satirio.com/ma/bafanmen/methodology.html
has some distinct differences…

regards,
Wu Chanlong

additionally these are also bafanmen:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xwP-Ckq8QMY
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CeR6rsRYNuo[/QUOTE]

The Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou I am referring to comes from the generation before Liu Dekuan, such as Liu Shijun, its from a different student of Liu Shijun rather than Liu Dekuan.

Also, I have a copy of manual that shows the first 8 rows of this Yue Shi Ba fan Shou.

Eagle claw as it is done today changed it a lot.

Also, it looks similar to but not exactly like the Ba Fan Quan sets in those two video links.

51

[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;872540]Reply]
Just a collection of thoughts, and thought provoking questions:

One possibility, the Shaolin Tai tzu set comes from the Tong Bei system because Tong Bei was used extensively by the military at the time. Maybe it was a key set to the Tong Bei system Zhao and all his Generals knew through the military?

Now, we may find that the Tai tzu set, IF it originally comes from this Tong Bei line may, have been named because Zhao Kuang Yin developed it (thus adding it to the line), and OR someone close to him learned it shortly after Shaolin developed it, and it got passed on as part of that persons Tong bei. OR maybe it became a standard set taught to the early Song Military after Shaoliin developed it and it was just taught with all the Tong bei the military was doing at the time?

Would this mean it is actually a version of that time period’s Tong bei and not really a new style?

Question, did Zhao Kuang Yin know the Shaolin 32 Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set? Did Shaolin teach it to him after it was developed? OR did he maybe have a bigger hand in it’s creation than we think?

Once it was developed, who would have it been taught to?

Maybe Zhao Kuang Yin didn’t invent a style at all, and all that happened is Shaolin just recorded the same military Tong Bei style he and all his Generals did, and it just got named after him because of that?

In other words, there really is no Tai Tzu Chang Chuan at all, it’s just a variant of Tong Bei that Zhao Kuang Yin happened to know and it was prominent in the particular military he was a part of. It just got a famous name because he taught part of it to Shaolin, and later sent Generals to teach them more…so it got named after him.[/QUOTE]

Dude, you mixing up all different styles that have almost the same names.

Tong Bei Quan was developed during the early Qing Dynasty by Dong family in Shanxi / Henan area first, later reached Hebei. Dong Cheng taught many versions of this style to various people, each one is a different branch of Tong Bei Quan today, such as White Ape and Hongdong Tong Bei.

The “tong bi” that you are talking about that the military did during times that Zhao Kuan Yin was in the military didn’t have an exact name, it’s called Tong Bi today for whatever reasons. These military long fist were done back into the Tang Dynasty into the Song Dynasty.

Shaolin’s Tai Zu Chang Quan was developed by his orders, but it’s not called Tai Zu because of Zhao, Zhao was named that later, it would be Forbidden to use tai Zu as a name because it was associated with an Emperor’s name.
Shaolin called it Tai Zu because it was the foundational set, developed by order of Zhao so that Shaolin could prove if someone graduated from there or not.
Zhao sent people to Shaolin to give them their best techniques.
NO ONE outside of Shaolin during this time period was allowed to practice it or teach it.

This first set, Tai Zu Chang Quan Yi Lu was used eventually by people who learned it from somewhere no one knows, and somehow by the 1600s this set got to the Dong family and Dong Cheng taught it to Chen Wang Ting, and later Chen You Bin used it.

General Zhao that we are talking about is of Chuo Jiao Fanzi FAME, he was a general during the Tai Ping Rebellion, hundreds of years later in mid 1800s, and he fled to Hebei province from southern China.

Zhao Kuan Yin developed Lao Hong Quan. He descendants that re-located to other parts of China still do these sets. The Wencheng Quan style is one of those styles developed by his descendants.
The proof is that WenCheng was developed during the 1600s, same time as Tong Bei Quan of Dong family, and later Chen TJQ. \

If Lao Hong Quan and Tai Zu Chang Quan was not from before the Qing Dynasty, it would have been impossible for people from two different provinces living at the same time period (henan and Shandong in 1600s), but developing two styles with the same theories and many of the same movements, because both were drawing from Lao Hong Quan and Tai Zu Chang Quan.

52

You are completely missing my point. This is not coming across the way I intend it to in text. We need to talk on the phone.

We are spending entirely too much time on a little detail that should be in the background of this discussion.

I will call you later in the week and explain my thoughts. You will understand in 2 seconds that way.

53

the way it is said by master deyang is that zhao kuangyin studied at shaolinsi and later created his own form and taught it back to them. there were a few names he mentioned that did similar, but i dont recall them now. but definitely zhao kuangyin developed the form himself and taught it back to shaolin. not somehow by ‘his orders’ the form was developed and then taught to him afterward.

54

No, No, you are confusing the Tai Tzu 32 posture set with his Lao Hong Quan. There are two different forms. One HE developed, the other his Generals developed. It is a common point of confusion.

Zhao was famous for his Monkey Boxing, and also known to have learned Taiji Ruler, Hua Quan and Six Step Boxing.

Before he was Emperor, during his military career, he created his personal style by drawing from all the arts he knew, and the arts he did in the military. He combined all the techniques he used the most or were his favorites and developed the Lao Hong Fist (Old Flood Fist) style. THAT is the style he taught to Shaolin, not Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

I may be wrong, but if I remember right he got injured in a battle and spent a year at Shaolin recovering. That is when he developed his style into a form. It was just a collection of about 100 techniques before then.

The form called Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was developed by the Generals he sent there to teach AFTER he became Emperor. I am told the Shaolin records are very clear about this.

Also, in ANY style named Tai tzu, that I have found so far, the Tai Tzu name almost allways is honorary. The material is not actually from Zhao Kuang Yin personally. The style has that name to honor it’s Shaolin roots, and heritage initiated by Zhao, but not his actual art itself.

For example, there are a number of Tai tzu Long Fist styles in Taiwan, from Shandong. They are all Shaolin mixed with Moslem Cha Fist. You can see this clearly by comparing vids on Youtube.

These styles are nothing like Zhao Kuang Yin’s style at all. They are predominantly Moslem Long Fist and named to honor the Shaolin influence because the Shaolin influence was a division of longfist that had been spawned from the Tai tzu Chang Chuan set that Zhao sent his Generals to Shaolin to develop, or a style that descended from it…in other words, it’s an honorary name, NOT meant to say the art itself was Zhao Kuang Yin’s, just too honor him as the founder of Shaolin derived Long Fist in general.

The only Tai tzu Chang Chuan style I have seen that is not named solely in an honorary fashion is the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang chuan, which consists of the 32 posture form his Generals developed, his original Lao Hong set, and a later added set called Da Hong that the Monks developed from his notes after the fact.

Even then, only one set in that style is actually his. My guess is that one set was the entire style to him. All the other stuff got added to the system later by the Monks at Shaolin.

55

it was definitely the shaolin taizu changquan set that master deyang was talking about being developed and taught back to shaolin after zhao kuangyin studied there. he made no mentioned of the laohongquan set.

this was in a discussion on cherishing the antiquity of the material we practice now- where they came from, mentioning more names besides zhao kuangyin who studied at shaolin and then developed their own forms and taught it back to them. zhao and his taizu changquan set (even if the name was given honorarily by shaolin) was one example.

as for laohongquan, does it refer to this set: http://www.56.com/u65/v_MzA2OTUyNDY.html

he says there are two sets called dahongquan- this one and his. but this one is transmitted externally to shaolin in liu baoshan’s line. while his dahongquan (3 roads) is transmitted internally from his master suxi.

56

I believe the dahongquan developed from Zhao’s notes is 6 roads. The Yilu should be this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnC8FVBC29M

Sal, is that the right set in my link?

As for your history of the Tai tzu 32, I have heard the version you put forth as well, and held it to be the actual history, but according to Sal Canzonieri, the other story is the real one. That is based off review of Shaolin’s historical documents.

I still feel there is a confusion between those two sets though (Tai Tzu 32 and Lao Hong Quan)

It would be real nice to find out Zhao actually did develop the Tai tzu Chang Chuan Yi Lu, and all the other roads came from the generals. But based on conversations with Sal, and his description of some of his research and how he came to his conclusion, I don’t think Zhao actually developed it himself.

Go to Deyang and put forth the story I layed out, and see what he says.

Does he speak English? If so would there be a way to contact him? i would like to hear his views on things.

57

it may be more, but i’ve just learned or ever seen the three. but is laohongquan referring to the “dahongquan” set i linked to, or something else?

master deyang can say “monk”, “wolf”, and maybe a few other words of english. but he only speaks chinese. he is in hungary now for a few weeks but i’ll talk to him about it next time.

58

No, Lao Hong Quan is a totally different set. The one you linked to appears to be similar to the Xiao Hong Quan set everybody knows, only much longer. I have never seen that one before though, i am just picking out familiar moves.

I think Xiao Hong Quan and it’s matching Da Hong Quan are together a style that developed out of tai tzu, rather than being part of the same system.

The Da Hong for Tai tzu is the one with 6 roads. You normally only see the first 3 though. I once found a DVD/VCD on the 4th and 6th road, but not one on the 5th.

I learned the first road only, but later disguarded it when i decided to only work a few sets…only to discover it was part of the tai tzu system and I needed it. I need someone to reteach me now as I have forgotten all but the first 1/3 of it or so.

Lao Hong, from what I can tell, is a very rare set. Only Tai Tzu specialists would know it.

This is an abridged version of the first road of Zhao Kuang Yin’s Lao Hong Quan. It was all I cold find for reference.

http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin15.html

This is the Da Hong Quan sets

1-3 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9.html

4 & 6 http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin16.html

59

the dahongquan i linked to is the one i was talking about being transmitted externally to shaolin in liu baoshan’s line. the video is from him. tagou students. but it is extremely similar to xiaohongquan, as if a matching set.

i remember now. i just recently got a taolu appreciation vcd from those guys who do the 6 road dahongquan. they do some other rare forms too. such as 1-7 luohanquan. road 1 being xiaoluohanquan, and road 3 being daluohanquan.

the laohongquan set is also on there. just went back and watched it. and yeah, i’ve never seen that one before. doesnt really look like xiao or dahongquan at all.

but all of their forms are kind of awkward to my eye. they are from shi xingsen who is apparently in shi degen’s line.

so anyway, you’re saying the 6 road dahongquan is from taizu style, while xiaohongquan and its matching dahongquan are later developments out of that?

i thought sal was saying the 6 road (or 3 as far as i know) dahongquan were younger sets. and as far as i’ve learned, it was developed on the basis of xiaohongquan. and from there xiaotongbiquan was created from xiaohong, dahong, and houquan. then datongbiquan from xiaotongbi and dahong.

but this dahong similar to xiaohong as i’ve learned is something from outside shaolin temple. so, i dont know but it may have been created based on xiaohongquan, hence the similarities, but outside of shaolin temple- from liu baoshan. so i dont know how old it is.

60

Ahhhh!

Wait, let’s just use the Shaolin Encyclopedia that Shi De Qian wrote as source first.

It clearly says that Zhao went to Shanxi in his travels before signing up with the military and was defeated by an old man doing Soft boxing.
He followed this guy until he was surprised to see that he finally stopped at Shaolin.

There he asked if he could be taught the main concept of soft boxing. He learned in about 4 days or so. They found him to be very knowledgeable about techniques and they learned a series of 4 short Hong Quan sets from him before he left. He didn’t stay more than a week. It’s not like he learned a whole style from them, just a concept. His sets were called Hong Quan as meaning FLOWING because the moves were done in a flowing way, not stop and start like drills were normally done. This became called the LAO, ancient Hong Quan to differentiate it from the later developed Xiao Hong Quan developed during the late yuan or early Ming era, and Da Hong Quan sets developed during the Qing era.

The Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan set was developed because some fake monks were beaten up and they had lied and said that they had learned from Shaolin. Zhao Kuan Yin decided to help Shaolin make a series of testing sets, if someone didn’t know these sets, they didn’t learn at Shaolin. He send over some of his “friends” and over a space of 9 years, 3 sets of 3 years, they taught their best techniques to the Shaolin monk-soldiers who used the material to develop these sets. The first one is called TAI ZU because it is the ancestral set that all the others come from. It is named in honor of Zhao too, but he wasn’t named TAI ZU yet, since he wasn’t dead. His Lao Hong Quan was the long fist foundational base, then other ones were added from other people, to create a 32 posture (54 movements) set. The timing of this set is weird because it is an amalgamation of different people’s best stuff.

THIS is what the Shaolin Encylopedia says about Zhao’s stay there, his four sets of Hong Quan they received as a gift, and how the Chang Quan set was created, after 50 years of research by Shi De Qian, who traveled all over China and South East Asia to compare the hand written manuals that were copied from the library of Shaolin BEFORE it burned down in the 1920s. Also, many books were carried out while it was burning and saved, not everything burned up.

The Da Hong Quan sets are about 6 of them, only the first 3 are still taught openly. Most Shaolin “monks” of today don’t really know them well and have simplified them into garbage. They were developed from Zhao Kuan Yin’s notebooks that he donated to Shaolin Library before he died, and from mixing in stuff from various Shaolin sets then in existence. It’s an amalgamated series of sets.

The Xiao Hong Quan are THREE sets, one is shorter and simpler, the Xiao Hong Quan YI LU that everyone knows.
The NEXT set is called DA Hong Quan too, it is also now called Xiao Da Hong Quan, and it is mistakenly called the Lao Hong Quan set too. It is a more elaborate version of the common Xiao Hong Quan set. Many years ago, the Russbo Shaolin based website unveiled this set and we discussed the history of this set there.
(The third set is called Xiao Hong Quan ER LU, and is very short and is mostly a set of kicks, it was developed in Qing dynasty, so it much newer.)