[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1173754]It’s all down to opinion too which is better or not. That’s why some will like what I do and other will like other methods. Of course you have made clear your dislike to me in other posts so it would be no surprise that you would like this clip.
Please post your clips so we can see what would be better.[/QUOTE]
I don’t dislike you and I respect the contest achievements of your team of people.
I am just highlighting the way people are responding to this clip vs the way they respond to other clips of chi/gor sau when any objective person would agree that there are better (and worse) chi/gor sau clips on youtube.
My point is really about the attitudes of a faction of people of the forum, not about your clip.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1173744]To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, man, I’m just giving my impression. Post up “better clips of chi/gor sau” and I’ll give you my impression of those too. Post up why you think they are better too.
In general I like drills and sparring that train people for motions that happen in real fighting. Thus the motions would be how someone would look in real fighting. When I see clips that show a bunch of pitty pat slapping like motions that someone couldn’t use to free themselves from a wet paper bag, then I usually don’t like it.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1173760]Yep, if it was Kevins clip of him belting a student around they’d be all over him ike a bad suit[/QUOTE]
Oh, I don’t know. It’s not rocket science to spot fighting skill. Even the old man on our MMA team that fights roosters and drives people cross the country for fights could probably get it about 95% right watching clips.
[QUOTE=guy b.;1173776]I don’t dislike you and I respect the contest achievements of your team of people.
I am just highlighting the way people are responding to this clip vs the way they respond to other clips of chi/gor sau when any objective person would agree that there are better (and worse) chi/gor sau clips on youtube.
My point is really about the attitudes of a faction of people of the forum, not about your clip.[/QUOTE]
What you are highlighting is you don’t agree with the other comments. People can make their own views. You don’t have to sit on the fence. Not all things are objective if you feel you can see an answer. That’s people’s opinions. On the whole I always have excellent feedback. Only a few of the same people have the same few comments. Which is all fine, but then telling others they must have the same view is a different thing altogether. I am not sure of the point in that.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1173780]I don’t know, man, I’m just giving my impression. Post up “better clips of chi/gor sau” and I’ll give you my impression of those too. Post up why you think they are better too.
In general I like drills and sparring that train people for motions that happen in real fighting. Thus the motions would be how someone would look in real fighting. When I see clips that show a bunch of pitty pat slapping like motions that someone couldn’t use to free themselves from a wet paper bag, then I usually don’t like it.[/QUOTE]
Yes I would agree on that 100% I see so many wing chun demo’s that are just so far away from the real thing.
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1173785]What you are highlighting is you don’t agree with the other comments. People can make their own views. You don’t have to sit on the fence. Not all things are objective if you feel you can see an answer. That’s people’s opinions. On the whole I always have excellent feedback. Only a few of the same people have the same few comments. Which is all fine, but then telling others they must have the same view is a different thing altogether. I am not sure of the point in that.[/QUOTE]
No one told anyone they should have the same point of view, it was personal views that were expressed.
And in this thread the people that have questioned your clip arent the same people that have challenged you previous clips.
So to use your line, i dont see the point of you bringing that up
[QUOTE=GlennR;1173787]No one told anyone they should have the same point of view, it was personal views that were expressed.
And in this thread the people that have questioned your clip arent the same people that have challenged you previous clips.
So to use your line, i dont see the point of you bringing that up[/QUOTE]
Yes guy b was telling people that. That is why I made the comment. Again all pointless
[QUOTE=guy b.;1173744]To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?
Alan is even allowed to state nonchalently that this is just his normal training and that he is trying to get away from all the normal BS wing chun from people that don’t even train (when in fact all wing chun people do chi/gor sau and most do sparring).
Maybe you are all acting a bit like Alan’s student in the clip?[/QUOTE]
Although I wasnt named (dont feel bad I know you meant me as well) Ill answer
My main criitism is that we see lots of chi say clips, almost no sparing clips and certainly even less fighting clips from the schools that post these clips, they seem to think chi sau is the big training secret, I have always stated that structure falls apart under pressure… well alan does pressure test his guys, he has plenty of clips of them sparring and fighting MMA and thai
And because its only part of his training, and he is trying to get away from all the bull and actually posts fighting and hard sparring. I dont mind this clip, personally id rather do light clinch work than this, but im not a wing chun guy
If Kevin posted clips of just chi sau, and kept talking about how scientific wing chun fighting was i wouldnt be impressed, if he also posted clips of his guys fighting full contact I might be and I wouldnt rag on him, people posting endless chi sau clips without hard sparring and fighting clips is for me pointless as we cant see the end result
As I say the clip for me isnt anything special but alans not pretending it is, its just part of his training, but I appreciate there is pressure being applied and more importantly we can see by alans sparring and fighting clips of his students the outcome for him this sort of training brings
[QUOTE=guy b.;1173744]To people like Wayfaring and Sanjuro Ronin, why does this clip of training footage get a mostly free pass (minus some gentle ribbing about a non responding student) when much better clips of chi/gor sau are ripped to shreds for not being full on fighting?
Alan is even allowed to state nonchalently that this is just his normal training and that he is trying to get away from all the normal BS wing chun from people that don’t even train (when in fact all wing chun people do chi/gor sau and most do sparring).
Maybe you are all acting a bit like Alan’s student in the clip?[/QUOTE]
Context, that’s why.
Alan HAS showed clips of them fighting, MANY clips.
If he now chooses to show a more complaint drill clip, the context will dictate the response.
If all Alan puts up were clips like that, He WOULD get asked “where’s the beef?”
As for “much better clips”, well…that is subjective of course.
As for “a;; wing chun people” doing chi sao and sparring.
I’ll give you that one, yes all WC people do chi sao and sparring ( of some sort).
[QUOTE=Frost;1173803]**** you beat me to it!:mad:[/QUOTE]
BBWWAHHH !!!
Hey, I like kevin’s clips and have nothing but respect for GM Philip Bayer ( and David Peterson and Gary Lam, etc…).
I think the WSL lineage has the goods from what I have seen.
Having read WSL book I KNOW that WSL knew “what was what”.
Fighters KNOW Fighters and while I do NOT put myself in the league of legends like WSL, when you have fought enough ( iin and out of the ring) there are things you “expect” to hear coming from a guy that has “walked the walk” and you hear that in WSL.
My biggest critique of all the videos Kevin puts up is none of them have full contact sparring, which is something He says they do.
Hey, I like kevin’s clips and have nothing but respect for GM Philip Bayer ( and David Peterson and Gary Lam, etc…).
I think the WSL lineage has the goods from what I have seen.
Having read WSL book I KNOW that WSL knew “what was what”.
Fighters KNOW Fighters and while I do NOT put myself in the league of legends like WSL, when you have fought enough ( iin and out of the ring) there are things you “expect” to hear coming from a guy that has “walked the walk” and you hear that in WSL.
My biggest critique of all the videos Kevin puts up is none of them have full contact sparring, which is something He says they do.[/QUOTE]
Yep amazing how that camera seems to disappear right about the time they say they start to make contact
[QUOTE=Frost;1173808]Yep amazing how that camera seems to disappear right about the time they say they start to make contact :D[/QUOTE]
I don’t doubt that they do fight full contact.
I assume its a pretty small number simply because most people do NOT do wing chun to fight full contact.
I would just love to see it to confirm a few things I think about it.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1173810]I don’t doubt that they do fight full contact.
I assume its a pretty small number simply because most people do NOT do wing chun to fight full contact.
I would just love to see it to confirm a few things I think about it.[/QUOTE]
hey id settle for simply sparring clips with a bit of contact
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1173081]This is true. My guys fight so they come at me hard as we don’t have that type of thing where you can’t hit as I am the teacher going on. For sure if I go hard it causes them to freeze up more but that’s the test. I have other guys that just go harder and harder as well lol On the same weekend we did over 15 hours training. I got punched, kicked, taken down, rocked and tapped! and I was teaching them! That’s a more than normal weekend for us.[/QUOTE]
Anyone who trains realistically WILL get hit. Even if it’s your student. Some Sifus get upset if a student hits them so students are sometimes reluctant to really hit back. I’ve told students that hit me good job. I should’ve covered the line. . .
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1173812]Anyone who trains realistically WILL get hit. Even if it’s your student. Some Sifus get upset if a student hits them so students are sometimes reluctant to really hit back. I’ve told students that hit me good job. I should’ve covered the line. . . :)[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but you k now that at times, students give their Sifu “too much” respect.
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1173031]Yes of course, but that’s not the only skill needed in fighting. Controlling space is a higher skill you get from working the bridge in glove sparring. That’s why it was Chi Sao to Gor Sao. Its not just rolling.[/QUOTE]
Loi lau hoi sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung
intercept what comes, strike back as it retracts, without thinking.
The development of Lat Sau Jik Chung (better known as a free,unobstructed hand, hits directly ), is best cultivated through the training of Fook Sau & Tan Sau in Chi-sao drills. This is the primary reason for the existence of Fook Sau & Tan Sau in the form. The late Sifu Wong Shun Leung was of the belief that the ability to apply Lat Sau Jik Chung was the difference between good VT and outstanding VT.
He felt that if a practitioner could develop this attribute correctly, they would have an acute advantage over their opponent because their hands would be naturally inclined to find gaps in the defenses of their adversaries, as well as making them much more likely to attack aggressively at every opportunity due to their increased intention to do so.
Me; personally I have this view too, it is the skill of the fighter , student , coach, to enhance this in drills, sparring. In the clips neither of you is remotely doing this skill. Thats why I ask.
I see a mind set of “I want to hit you more than you hit me” in, what should be, a complying drill. Iow a drill that IS a mutual time out from sparring to develop certain attributes.
Granted it’s ‘your thing’ and I am not having a go at that. I am making an observation on ‘skill sets’ , techniques of what I LOOK FOR in a clip
