Advanced Art?

Hello,

What makes an art advanced?

Is it simplicity? Most elbow in south fist arts are simple.

Is it because its modern? Most southern arts are not that old.

Is it because its soft? There are numerous soft styles.

Is it the footwork? All styles have footwork that help one evade and follow etc.

What can it be?

The reason I bring this up is simple. Wing Chun was regarded as a so-called Advanced art in its day. The so-called counter all arts art. Guys like Leung Jan and others were very famous for destroying all challengers yet does that mean its Advanced?

When reading information about the greats of our time and the past we can see certain similarities in their writing. Guys like Wang Xiang Zhai, Ueshiba, Miyamoto Musashi, etc. etc. all had certain things they each stated in their writing that even tho they came from different disciplines they found the same truth.

Some common words;

The Way, Nature or Natural, The Void or Emptiness, etc..

The methods or art they preserved didn’t matter. The end product was the same. Since Wing Chun was one of those so-called Advanced Arts would it not (or should it not) have those common links to those other so-called Advanced Arts? We know that Silence or using Quiet to overcome the Active was indeed something Leung Jan told his pupils in Koo Lo but how many of us have achieved this? With that in mind we can assume that Leung Jan had the same approach or base idea as the other greats like Wang Xiang Zhai so it makes me think the art was one of those Advanced Natural Methods.

So, in todays Wing Chun world who (or which so-called Master/Grandmaster) have achieved the same type of power those other Advanced artists achieved or are we just using the basic simple soft boxing to over come our opponents? Which Master can bounce out their opponent and send them flying? We know it can be done as there is numerous stories and historical fight information preserved on the other masters of the Advanced way. I will attach some info. on Wang Xiang Zhai fights.

So, why am I bringing this up? Hendrik mentioned that their is only one Advanced art and when reading about those greats I think he is spot on. Hendrik also mentioned that the Wing Chun engine may be lost. Well, from reading the stories or the power of thsoe greats I may have to say he seems right again as nobody has reached that level today.

What can we do to bring that advanced level back to our Advanced art?

Just some thoughts!

Regards,

Anecdotes Of Dachengquan Founder Wang Xiangzhai by Wang Xuanjie DACHENGQUAN is a set of barehanded exercises for health-keeping and combat. It was developed by my instructor Wang Xiangzhai in Beijing in the 1940s. The following anecdotes about him will help you learn something more about Wang and his dachengquan.When Wang Xiangzhai created dachengquan half a century ago, wushu which was popular among the folk was not much to the original and had become a show piece rather than a fitness exercise and combat skill. To preserve the quintessence of traditional Chinese wushu, there was every need for all martial artists to pay attention to the prevailing deviation and make concerted efforts for a renewal. His determined resolution strengthened as he saw the Japanese invaders beating their victims of occupation for fun in Beijing. “We are a great nation,” he said indignantly. “How can we put up with such insults?” Then, while absorbing strong points of various schools of wushu, he created a style of barehanded exercises-dachengquan. To spread the newly- emerging routine far and wide, Wang recruited a large number of youngsters and gave them lessons personally. His aim was very clear and that was to help boost the morale of the Chinese people and counter foreign pugilism. He issued a statement in a local newspaper and declared that he was ready to take on any rivals including those coming from foreign countries. Wang’s remark angered Kenichi Sawai, a Japanese martial artist then living in Beijing. Sawai was good at karate, swordplay and judo. In his eyes, Chinese wushu was only something like gymnastics, having little value in actual fights. So, one day, he went to call at Wang’s in the hope of showing off his prowess. When he saw Wang Xiangzhai, he found that the Chinese shadow boxer, a man of middle stature clad in long gown, looked very gentle and suave. He was very happy to meet with such a weakling, thinking that he would win without fail. After introducing himself and explaining why he had come, he produced a newspaper which carried Wang’s statement and tossed it on a table. “You are ready to have a dual fight, aren’t you?” asked the Japanese karate practitioner, his face wreathed in contemptuous smiles. “Yes, I am,” retorted sneeringly my instructor. “I always mean what I have said. I would never refuse anyone who wants to compete with me. Foreign martial artists are especially welcome.” Hearing that, Sawai went out of the drawing room and stood in the courtyard waiting for a duel. Without any hesitation, Wang came out with hands placed behind his back. Directing his strength to both hands through concentration, Sawai assumed a horse-riding stance and launched a sudden attack on Wang’s face with hands. Seeing this, my instructor, his left hand remaining still, extended his right forearm to parry Sawai’s hands. Then, with a slight exertion of strength, Wang threw the Japanese muscle man 10 feet away. Before realizing what had happened, Sawai was already Lying on the ground on his back. Not admitting defeat, Sawai wanted to have a swordplay contest with Wang because he was so skilled at it that he could cut an apple on the head of a man into two without hurting the head. Considering that Sawai should get an idea of what Chinese swordplay was, Wang agreed to have another contest. With a sword held overhead in his hands, Sawai delivered a hard blow at Wang’s head. Wang stepped a bit to the right and wielded his sword to block the opposing sword. As the two swords clanked, Sawai was also thrown several feet away and flattened with his palms benumbed. (According to the son of Sawai, they did not fight with swords but with sticks.) Irreconciled, Sawai rose to his feet and pounced upon Wang with his sword towards the throat. This skill is very famous in Japanese swordplay, with which one can catch his rival off guard. However, Wang was so good at Chinese swordplay that it seemed as if he did not make use of eyes but sense only in a fight. Wang turned his body to the right slightly, leaving Sawai’s attack wide of the mark. In another instant, Wang pressed his sword against his opponent’s. Sawai tried hard to draw his sword back, only to no avail, since it was “pasted” fast to Wang’s at the guard of the hilt. When Wang mustered up his strength, Sawai was flung out and slammed against a nearby door which caved in as a result. Later on, Sawai engaged Wang in a qinna-something like judo- contest. By then, he was already a 5 - dan judoka in Japan. However, he could never get hold of Wang by the sleeve or the front in competition, no matter how hard he tried. Instead, he was grasped by Wang as soon as they came to grips. Then came an Italian boxer who had made a name for himself in West Europe. His surname was James. When he was on a tour in Beijing, he learned that Wang Xiangzhai, founder of dachengquan, was looking for a rival, so he was also eager to have a try believing that it was a good chance for him to earn fame in China. After exchanging a few words at Wang’s, they came out into the courtyard and began to warm up for competition. James, with shorts only on, put on a pair of gloves and gave several straight punches to a thick tree and leaves fluttered down from the swaying branches. When James took off his boxing gloves and changed into a pair of cotton-yarn ones and assumed a boxer’s classic stance, the onlookers on the scene held their breath. The alien contestant appeared so powerful, so muscular and so agile, and he dwarfed Wang by a head. Could Wang be his match? Looking as calm as ever before, Wang was all geared for the contest, with his right hand in front of the chest. James was an experienced boxer endowed with long and powerful arms and highly proficient in the art. With his right hand in front and left hand at his lower jaw, he suddenly delivered a straight left to Wang’s face. As James came up with his fist, Wang raised his right forearm for a parry and in quick succession made a powerful push that shot James up and grounded him six feet off. Without knowing what it was all about, James rose to his feet and composed himself for another bout. This time, he changed tactics. He first made an arm feint and then gave his chest a right uppercut. Turning slightly to the left, Wang put his right wrist gently on the right elbow of James, who felt benumbed all over at once, and collapsed on the ground after tottering for a moment. Now, he realized that he was not as good at fighting skills as Wang, which should account for his previous defeats. However, he thought he could outplay his rival in the third bout; he believed that he was much more powerful than Wang. To show this Italian boxer what Chinese boxing was really like, Wang asked James to punch his chest and ribs. A hail of hard blows followed and Wang was as firm as a rock. Getting desperate, James gathered all his strength and landed a heavy punch on Wang’s abdomen with his right hand. Wang’s abdomen heaved a bit and James fell down onto the ground with his right wrist sprained. Later, a Mongolian wrestler, who had been living in the suburbs of Beijing, came to compete with Wang Xiangzhai. This story sounds quite incredible, but it has been on the lips of martial artists to date. Named Bator, this lad was a son of a former official in charge of military affairs in the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Bator began to learn xingyiquan (form-and-will shadow boxing) from his father at the age of 14 and took a fancy to archery and horsemanship four years later. When he was 20 years old, he started to practice wrestling under the guidance of a former imperial court trainer. After five or six years of training, he made rapid progress and became quite versed in wrestling. He was strong enough that he could subdue a galloping horse. One day on his way home, a shying horse ran up to him, pursued by a yelling crowd. When the horse arrived in front of him, this Mongolian wrestler first moved aside, then, to the great surprise of the pursuers, jumped forth to catch the horse by the neck and upset it. When he heard that Wang Xiangzhai was willing to have contests with other wushu devotees, Bator went into the city to rise to the challenge. At the start of the contest in Wang’s courtyard, the two stood a few meters apart, face to face. Bator moved forward, trying to throw Wang down with a unique skill he had mastered in wrestling training. As they were about to come into contact, a small insect buzzed into Wang’s left ear. Disturbed as he was, Wang continued with his firm steps forward while picking his ear with his left little finger. At the sight of this, Bator jumped out of the way and, bowing to Wang with his hands folded in front, said: “You are so good at martial arts. I am no match for you.” The two exchanged a smile out of their tacit understanding for each other and the contest thus ended. The onlookers were all in a maze. One of them asked Bator, “How come you acknowledged defeat? You should have a try for it.” “As an old saying goes, a master knows what a man he is fighting against the moment he takes the opponent on. He was so sedate and self- assured at this juncture that he could afford to pick his ear. If he was not an adept in the art, how could he have so much confidence in winning the contest?” In the year he developed dachengquan, Wang Xiangzhai kept having contests with dozens of martial artists, Chinese and foreign. They all came in confidence, but went in failure. Since then, the name of Wang Xiangzhai has spread far and wide and dachengquan become a beautiful blossom in the flower garden of Chinese wushu. (Translated by Chen Shengtao)

practice

Jim,

Correct me if I’m wrong but these arts seem to die with the founder in each of these stories. Perhaps the Wing Chun race has degenerated into a new underworld species where they can’t stand that glorious light of old. =)

the reality is the stories are just that , stories
old school sales pitches or blown out of proportion hand me down fables

in all the fighting and studies of combat in modern time , around the world there would be tons of people with these skills
not just a few guys in china or Japan ,

with no visual proof beyond , this or that person says

we are adults yet we seem to wish to believe in fairy tales
if you want to advance wing chun , then find a medium in which to pressure test it and then things will blossom
obviously all the chi sau and forms and talking is not doing much these days now is it

and then there are the people that talk about this or that advance skill but when you ask them to produce proof , it becomes well I can’t do it but I heard this guy can

more myth

and for all the rooting and structure and jing talk
does it really apply in spontaneous aggressive attack or only in a demo with a willing partner hmmmmmmm.

seems to me like people don’t want to face themselves and there short comings so they pretend through imaginary lives of the past

fighting is a ugly barbaric clumsy painful endeavor
yet people want to pretend and paint a picture by the numbers , with out ever getting there hands dirty

personally I don’t get it but what ever keeps you from going postal

rene and Ernie speak the truth.

LOL!!!

Jim,

All things are possible and I don’t doubt for a moment that there were some people who achieved extraordinaire Kung Fu in the past. As such I find unusual stories like yours fascinating and stimulating. What we need today is a taste of the real apple. That is why I’m pitching my wagon to San Jose soon. Hopefully I won’t sleep for a hundred years. =)

Hey guys!

Thanks for the replies! I figured I was going to get hammered for these thoughts but you guys went easy on me! hehehe

First! I was thinking about this stuff while on vacation and reading about the old masters. Lots of stuff started to run thru my head and I figured I would bounce it off you guys.

Now! While I agree that some of this stuff seems far fetched (especially from watching Ueishiba demonstrate) there happen to be a good number of people who are still alive who witnessed Wang’s fights and ability as well as Ueshiba’s. During their time they were the best of the best and had an unuasual ability where as most others tended to be skilled at what most of us do. So, my thoughts were; What makes these so-called advanced arts just that? They all had something in common and their headmasters all spoke in similar ways. Plus, they all cultivated a different sort of whole body power from any spot. I then said to myself; We have all the same ideas as those arts in our art but are we not cultivating the whole enchillada?

So, while you may seem to think I am looking for this super-natural power etc I am not. Fighting is ugly and the only way to get better is to fight more and a variety of people. So, I agree with Ernie but what makes any art more advanced than any other? These arts do tend to have trouble duplicating as the founders are just that and tend to have tapped into something others have not. What is the common link that they all used to tap into that level? There has to be something?

Now, I do feel lucky that Wing Chun is sooooo simple and effective that we have a much more practical vehicle for usage and transmission hence the reason we are able to produce numerous top fighters but could there be more than just simple boxing?

Just thinking out loud again!

:smiley:

what makes any art more advanced than any other?

training methods ,
separate most arts , but in the end it’s individual attributes
look at basket ball for ex. they have all the same shots and body mechanics , yet even at pro level were they work hard and get the best coaching and training out there some individuals just shine , Jordan for ex.
he does all the same stuff but has better attributes

now I just don’t believe nor do I car about wing chun past and old masters ,
when they say best of the best who were they fighting and who’s to say they just didn’t all suck but the ‘’ masters ‘’ just sucked a little less
in every other athletic or combative event there has been great progress due to science , nutrition , and better training methods ,
except for traditional martial arts they are stagnate and just talk about what they used to be .

it’s like people want to keep recreating the model t when they have a Ferrari in there face

jim[Wing Chun is sooooo simple and effective that we have a much more practical vehicle for usage and transmission hence the reason we are able to produce numerous top fighters ]

numerous great fighters ? were ? in respect to what ?

numerous great talkers would be more like it
:stuck_out_tongue:

sure there are a few great individuals but as a whole they majority is only great in there own mind or the confines of the training bubble

numerous great excuses of why they don’t get involved in any real test of skill would be another way to say it

and my favorite ‘’ kings of lip sau ‘’

so when we get back to the future , revamping training mehtods , breaking a sweat , getting in fight shape , and pitting our skills with top level fighters then you might find out if an art can be advanced or is it just advanced b.s.

Re: Advanced Art?

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hendrik also mentioned that the Wing Chun engine may be lost. Well, from reading the stories or the power of thsoe greats I may have to say he seems right again as nobody has reached that level today.

We need to better understand the underlying assumptions here. What is the criteria for evaluating those former “greats”? If based on stories, how much of the claims are valid and accurate, and how much is “spin” or perceptions of the story tellers? How do you know that nobody has reached that (yet-to-be-defined) level today?

Per my earlier response to Hendrik’s assertion, the Wing Chun engine may be challenging to find, develop, or gain consensus on, but IMHO, not lost.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo

Advance is about the capabilities of utilize the most of the human resources a human has.

It is an othogonal issues to technics…tan, swing, ground fighting… faking or real figthing.

capabilities of utilize as much as what a human has needed a methodology in mind/body/breathing to be cultivate or train. This has no contradiction to technics and different ways of application or style. But makes different technics more effective.

So, even the streching of Oyamas Kyokushing Idea, the no move is better then small move idea of Wang Xiang Zai,… etc.. ALL is a matter of training/seraching/streaching toward a both more effective and effecient process or result. Notice, it is a process of handling the human capability better. it has say nothing about the tactic or style but not exclude the tactic or styles…

People often mis-understood the search or working to strech of human’s potential with different dimentions to its ultimate as a magic or super nature. That is because one has tied one’s mind to view to box to define by oneself that fighting has to be in a certain way one view. Plane never get off ground if the view of only bird can fly is the only truth. Jet fly faster then the flipping wings…

The search of a more effective, efficient way of using one’s body/brething/mind is not denying about fighting but facing fighting as a reality to find different alternatives. that is a part of evolotion. similar to how flipping wings lead to invention jumbo jet .
It doesnt make sense to stop the alternative search and deny all the attainment of the past martial artists and deny all the existance by the name of fighting. The search and streching as Wang or Mas Oyama did has no blocking any kind of fighting method but will improve the fighting on the other hand.

As an example of what has done in the past.

in the ancient time, a tan sau is said to be a water shape hand with one other reason. That is when one does a tan sau, one has to feel an invisible water stream flowing from body toward the tip of the fingers. the fingers has to be closed so that that water stream focus forward. But there is an end of this flow since that is high tie and low tie of a flow. that is the time the tan execution completed---- low tie. so there is monitoring inward, outward, self and external influence — in this case the resistance of air.

SLT was view as no arm or hand but replace the arm and hand with an invincible water colon which flow with different angels flows of water out from the body and directed with mind. and ofcorse there are detail analysis of mind to be able to address what is the state of mind one desire to select and what state of mind one doesnt desire to get into.

fighting with flying limbs even thought constantly spoken about rooting or structure will be just a competing for speed ; for the body was never really being use. this is because most of those who says rooting is similar to tie the horse one rides on a pole and start fighting on top of the horse after the horse is stablely secured or ---- rigidly dead. there is a different with those who fight on top of the running horse.

So, the advance art is about fighting on top of the running horse. and it needs to have technology, methodology, and methods.

So, what is a tied horse? stop or force breathing. tunnel vision or dull mind or emotion reactive mind .., constant tense up body parts.

See, for most of us, doing SLT today is not about that invisible water colon flowing with different spiral or votex of flow.
Doing SLT today is about tied the “horse”. one jam one’s elbow. one dull one’s mind calling that focus. one force the tan to be this high this far. how is this become advance art? can polishing brick become glass mirror?

We even have so much fear to let go the tied 'horse" and using the name of “figthing” to in justified all others possibilities. However, when it comes to discussing fighting. then the MMA .. abc. xyz… all brought up.

on one way one advocate of WCK still doing SLT and has to do it MY SIFU GM X way GM Y way or Mr Z way. or WCK according to my sifu who is the best of WCK… on and on.
on the other way, when discussion figthing then one advocate MMA, just do it, fighting is for fighting…

But while searching into the different view of SLT and/or energy paradigm where others has accomplished in the past. That was voodoo… that was not true, the ancestors …
Isnt it that hypocrate?

Sure one can always argue that to fly one must needs a pair of flipping wings and dont you ever dare to fantasy of man flying.
one will never see a bird with jet enginee isnt it? and the 747 jumbo jet doesnt has a flipping wings so it cannot fly.:smiley:

you like the flipping wings stuffs. that is fine with me. I like both flipping wings, jet propelling, and the super conductor anti-gravitation. and the list goes on. :smiley:

Those all just a different way of using energy. hahahaha.
Why fighting has to be in one way? doing ten thousand wings flipping will not fly faster then a Jet plane. so keep up your flipping wings flying.

The evolution of WCK is multi-dimentional. and the investigation or search on a better more effective, efficient way or using or manupulating energy is not an optioin but a must.

Re: Re: Advanced Art?

Originally posted by kj
[B]

Per my earlier response to Hendrik’s assertion, the Wing Chun engine may be challenging to find, develop, or gain consensus on, but IMHO, not lost.
[/B]

Sure, Hendrik cannot make the sun lost. if you dont blind fold yourself. :smiley:

“Take off your sun glasses”… that is the song Hendrik always sing. Praise the spring right? how can one praise the spring without see the sun?

Hello,

Thanks for all the input!

Hendrik has hit the nail on the head. I think we all have an excellent vehicle but there is a power of the mind coordinated with the body & breath that these guys harnissed to an total unified level within their body.


Hendrik stated:

Advance is about the capabilities of utilize the most of the human resources a human has.

So, even the streching of Oyamas Kyokushing Idea, the no move is better then small move idea of Wang Xiang Zai,… etc.. ALL is a matter of training/seraching/streaching toward a both more effective and effecient process or result. Notice, it is a process of handling the human capability better. it has say nothing about the tactic or style but not exclude the tactic or styles…


Read below on Wang’s comments regarding Chinese MA!

The boxing arts of our nation are in a chaotic state, thus the people cannot know what course to take. Summed up, they have abandoned the quintessence and kept only the scum, nothing more! The people should be very ashamed of this. So, we should clean up and carry forward the old knowledge! Except for us, who else is there to do it?


So, for me, its not about a looking for the model t or the original etc.. That stuff is funny. Especially since I do a modern platform of WC. Granted it was developed by one of the greats but we Koo Lo guys still refer to it as a modified version by Leung Jan Jongsi as he did his thing to it and are more than happy to acknowledge that but perhaps their is a linkage within our bodies that is not on par with those old greats. They obviously harnissed the maximum whole body power/unity of mind and body.

Just some more thoughts.

reneritchie,

practice

Well, I could practice diligently, 6 hours a day for years at learning how to fly by flapping my arms (BongSao optional). But, I still wouldn’t be any closer to getting off the ground. :wink:

Perfect practice

:slight_smile:

tom
[Perfect]
perfect in respect to what ?

The Science of Fighting.

From what I’ve seen so far, Wing Chun is an advanced “art” because it is based on science.

Of course folks could rationalize that ALL martial arts are based on science since they all deal with the movement of the human body. However, even though some other arts are built upon similar scientific concepts, such as of not fighting force with force and striking vital targets, it seems that our Wing Chun ancestors incorporated much more science than the movers and shakers of less advanced systems.

The most ironic thing it seems is that the more advanced a system is, the more it is based on “simple” concepts instead of complex and complicated ones. The more one thinks about this, however, the more it makes sense. The respected leaders in many other fields often speak of this natural simplicity found in the higher (more advanced) levels of their respective disciplines. For example, Einstein said, “things should be as simple as possible.” He died while working on an “advanced” theory where the laws of the universe could be expressed in one simple formula (Unified Field Theory).

As a last example, it’s common knowledge that instead of teaching unnatural and complex systems, some of the fighting experts/instructors in the U.S. Armed Services teach systems which are very much based on the natural and simple reflex-response approach that Wing Chun is based on.

originally posted by hendrik
Those all just a different way of using energy. hahahaha.
Why fighting has to be in one way? doing ten thousand wings flipping will not fly faster then a Jet plane. so keep up your flipping wings flying.

Because Wing chun is about MOST efficient not one of many possible ways but “the way”.

As a last example, it’s common knowledge that instead of teaching unnatural and complex systems, some of the fighting experts/instructors in the U.S. Armed Services teach systems which are very much based on the natural and simple reflex-response approach that Wing Chun is based on.

Correct, the most recent being the Army H2H combatives manual which is based in large part on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/toc.htm

link doesn’t seem to work for me on this crap network, but you could try the google cache.

WCK is scientific in the same way cooking or playing pool is scientific. It follows certain laws that can give insight into optimization, but is also so dependant on initial conditions as to make the exploration of the science of superficial benefit at most.

As a chef is as more artist as chemist, a pool player more artist than physics major, a trained fighter is more artist than kenetician. Proof of this is that, while they all possess some knowledge that could be termed ‘scientific’, Thomas Keller is not a Nobel chemist, Minnesota Fats was never offered the Lucasian Professorship, and be it Yip Man or Rickson Gracie, martial arts of surpassing skill developed that skill through training, not lab work in vector formulae.

So what then makes an art advanced?

  1. Minimazation of dependance on attributes (flexibility, strength, speed, limb length, etc. are bonuses, not requirements).

  2. Systematic, progressive, and integrated methodology. (Each element builds and complements the next, how you do one thing is how you do most/all things.)

  3. Simplicity (no excess, be it physical or theoretical).

If pretty much most people can use the tools of an art, those tools are part of an easily transportable core, that core is trained in a step-by-step manner to build real skill, and no time is wasted on fancy but ultimately useless movements or words, then you have an advanced martial art.

OPMMV

Originally posted by canglong
Because Wing chun is about MOST efficient not one of many possible ways but “the way”.

"Most " and “the way” is the begining of Tunnel vision and non Zen.

Why? WXZ even he was one of the best. He still mention there are 2 people above him.

Zen is about spacial or roomy and flex or alive. Without Spacial and Roomy and flex Zen is dead.

So, for advance art, when the mind is not spacial, alive, and roomy to be able to grow and embrace more. The mind is sick.
With a sick mind how breathing, body, and everything can be right?

A non roomy and non spacial mind will cause a stuffy body and a shallow fast breathing. Sick mind will produce sick body.
So, why one wants to go this path? the tunnel vision path to the dead end and trap oneself?
Cant be advance art this way isnt it?

Ultimate is about unlimited spacial, unlimited embracement, and unlimited liveliness, and unlimited possibilities.

Walk into the a vast cathedal in europa and see how spocial it is; then walk out and look at the sky and ocean.

there the spacial and advace shown. who is" the most , the way?" that is a tunnel vision.