A True Definition Of MMA:　A Very Unpopular Opinion

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

I am a traditional martial artist.

I studied different styles growing up and hold a black belt in 2 styles.

I have a background several disciplines and still train regularly.

I am currently working as a bodyguard.

Like most, I watched the UFC in it’s early days and was perplexed with the level of freedom and desire of those to express their artform. I remember when Jerry Springer did a show on it in the 1990’s and described it as “brutal anything goes fighting competition.” I watched it get blocked from access on American TV. I saw it re-emerge and explode with a new face and new rules. Seeing the return of UFC and then the amazing spectacle of Pride really made me excited. From 2006 - 2009, I saw forums like Sherdog become filled with MMA-aholics. I lurked and enjoyed the arguments that MMA was everything in combat and everything else was fake and useless. If you didn’t admit that MMA was the king of combat, you were either from a “Mcdojo” or you suck at fighting. Those were hilarious times for me. Silat, Krav Maga, Kung Fu… it all seemed to be nothing compared to MMA. It got to the point where the only thing that could prove you had high level combative skill was to see your MMA fight record. If you had an undefeated or even good MMA fight record, you were considered a respected and high level combatant. Times have changed. People are not so insistent in MMA as being the end all be all of fighting, but the fans are truly still crazy about it.

Unfortunately, I didn’t continue on the hype train. I lost my enthusiasm for it many years ago and stopped MMA as whole. What caused me to have this change of heart? Actually, joining MMA competitions and becoming a fighter. I have an undefeated record, not a high one 6W - 0L. But, my time in MMA was enought for me to analyze the sport in a way very few have. Not from a computer or armchair, but by actually doing it.

So, I want to provide a clear definition of MMA from someone who has both MMA and TMA experience. While I won’t be returning to “study” MMA or compete, I hope this is useful and may lead to interesting debate:

  1. MMA is NOT a Martial Art

Before you get angry, answer this question: What is the curriculum for MMA? Yes, there are McMMA schools that promise to make you a great fighter. But, there is no clear MMA curriculum, it simply doesn’t exist. Training methods and approaches differ from gym to gym and coach to coach. I have never met any two places that had a cohesive system. All Martial Arts have systems that can be adapted to many different types of situations. BBJ IS a martial art. Muay Thai IS a martial art. Currently, there are Con men claiming they can teach you to “fight MMA.” That is simply impossible as MMA is not a martial art.

  1. MMA is not form of self defense

(See above) It has no real system of fighting. It is more so “an idea” of mixing everything into one pot and calling it the highest form of combat. That is not science, it is mainly a idealology that is in someways flawed. (See 5 below for more info)

  1. Nearly any blending of martials art styles can be considered “MMA”

The biggest issue I have with MMA is that it trivializes holding up the valuable knowledge of TMA and instead claims that MMA can beat everything because it has “ground game” AND “stand up game”. However, due to the ambiguous nature of what MMA really is (as a science), it becomes hard to define in terms of combat praticality. In it’s purist definition: Anyone who blends different styles together can be called MMA. If I took fencing and combined it with thumb wresting, sprinkled in archery and slap fighting… Technically, I could call myself MMA.

  1. It is very different from real life combat

Real life combat flows very differently from MMA. I would never fight in an octagon the same way I fight in real life. Having experienced both, they are extremely different affairs. One has rules and limits your full application. The other has no rules and anything goes. The mindset, the science, the tools and situations are all different. However, the selling point of MMA is that these people ARE the world’s best fighters. I wouldn’t claim they are the world’s best combatants though. There are people in the world whose combative science is just too lethal and deep. Of course, most MMA fans would never admit nor like to hear this. That is due to the great marketing and selling of the UFC. And I don’t think MMA competitors need to prove they can destroy people in dangerous real life situations as that would be stupid…

  1. MMA did not create nor can own the idea of cross training

The reason why MMA has gained traction as the great and most dangerous skill in the combat game is due to the idea cross training. UFC and MMA as whole take credit for cross training and make a simple claim: We can beat anyone out there because we have ALL the styles. That is simply rediculous.

A. MMA didn’t invent cross training. Tradition chinese martial artists stressed the idea of cross training in ancient times. To know the enemy is know yourself. Even in the great works of Miyamoto Musashi, he stressed the importance of not relying on one weapon or system. Even Silat and traditional muay thai have philosophies that involved ideas of heavy foot work and adaptation knowledge.

B. Bruce Lee… the “father” of MMA
This guy only finished 20-30% of Wing Chun and wanted to learn more. He was an ex-gang member. He beat up a few of his instructors and had a hot temper. He was impatient and wanted to learn more. His teacher refused. After a high level gong fu practitioner withstood his beating and stopped him, he got ****ed. He claimed he got too tired, too fast… A few days later declared ALL TRADITION STYLES are flowery movements and useless. What a huge amount of disrespect. So, he tried to re-invent the wheel by learning every style he could to create his own style. His creation: An unfinished piece of work called: Jeet Kune Do. This mindset took over the west and suddenly the idea of cross training was born. Unfortunately, his cross training idea was created by the chinese gong fu practitioners. His foot work and attacks were all from chinese gong fu masters and his philosophies were all from chinese masters who came before him. He just became famous and never gave them any credit. I used to idolize him, but after reseaching him, I feel sorely disappointed.

Now, true science is considered useless and going into MMA with some kick boxing knowledge and bjj makes you the ultimate unbreakable combative weapon. Unfortunately, this is not true. There is high level science out there, but I fear in the current bloodthirsty MMA enviornment as the end all be all philosophy, it will be lost…

  1. MMA is an entertaining SPORT

If MMA isn’t a Martial Art, then what is it? A sport plain and simple. It’s a competition. Calling yourelf an MMA fighter doesn’t really mean much. It just means you engage in competitions with combative rules. It’s the same as an actor calling themselves a golden globe actor, even though they participate, but never won one. As a sport, it has no real weight in calling itself some sort of end all be all fighting style.

  1. MMA is extremely dangerous and just not worth the risks (business and healthwise)

Having done MMA, there is a strangeness to it. After the fight, we shake hand and go for a beer. One of our guys has a broken nose, fractured ribs and a broken hand. He got paid 1000 bucks for that fight. Not nearly enough to cover hospital expenses alone, let alone training fees. This sport grinds you up and only a small percentage of fighters can get to RR or Connor Mc money. The 99% of them will have permanent injuries that will remain with them their whole lives, but at least they can the glory of kicking some ass. We claim that we will heal up and be alright. That is not true. Injuries pile up fasters than any sport I have ever participated, that includes boxing. Only because we don’t have concussions, we sweep long lasting injuries under the rug. As the fans say, “If you are stupid enough to do it, you deserve it.” Meh…

2

knowledge in martial arts is gained through bloodshed.

3

1993 called and wants its kung fu insecurity back

4

I see…

The above replies basically explains and even supports everything I just wrote. Thanks guys. With that said, I do hope people in contact sports can continue to make a living doing what they love. I have friends in many different contact sports. I am just not into the common myths or perceptions of MMA. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. At the same time, I feel that MMA seems to attract a lot of people who love violence more than science. I could be wrong though.

Another interesting truth about MMA: You lose, you get thrown under a bus.

I followed the sport since it’s inception. It seems that legends are forgotten and even despised by the fans. I remember when names like Tito Ortiz, Ken Shamrock, RR… Hell, even Anderson Silva were considered gods who could beat everyone on the face of the earth. Again the UFC hype machine is amazing. Unfortunately, they lost a few and you go on MMA forums and some idiotic people are quick to bash them. I may be wrong. But, it seems to me that there is no respect for lineage or longevity in the sport. You lose, you suck and your whole career is affected.

An additional truth: Cheat to win…
When I was doing MMA, a lot of guys were using something. It was common and it was almost a narc thing to tell anyone. A lot of the usage was due to healing faster, but many still want performance advantages. There are many MMA promotions that don’t test at all. Good luck with that. Some guys break rules, such as trying to punch you after extending their hands to shake yours. It’s a dirty game.

However, what is the biggest scandal that will one day set the MMA world on fire?

No one is allowed to talk about it.
No one can mention it.
It shouldn’t be possible and most MMA guys will never admit it or they will become public enemy number one…

Fixed fights

If you don’t believe fixed fight ever occur in MMA, I have a kite to sell you. I was offered a fixed fight once and was totally shocked. It lead me to think how often does this occur. It’s absolutely rediculous how MMA considers this impossible in the sport. Where cheating and doping is extremely common, other forms of cheating is taboo? For promotions, MMA is a fixed fight heaven due to the nature of not being able to catch it. One day a major promotion will get caught and it will hurt this sport in a serious way. I stopped betting on MMA fights a while ago.

Strategic Picking

Picking cans to fight someone in order to make them look like gods. It happens and some of this is very strategic by promotions. Every promotion needs a star and this is used heavily in MMA. The holy grail is take someone with an exceptional fight record and thinking about retiring and asking that person to take a dive on the new blood.

Again, these are just my observations and experiences and may not represent MMA as a whole.

5

Interesting thread.

I will say that I have never heard of Bruce Lee beating up any of his instructors. I HAVE heard that he once punched a Taiji teacher during a public demo in Hong Kong in which the Taiji teacher challenged any of the other teachers present (including BL) to push him over. Reportedly, BL punched him and said, “I don’t push, I punch.” That’s the only incidence I was aware of where BL punched (or “beat up”) another kung fu teacher. Well, that and the Wong Jack Man fight, in which the version given by the Lee camp is very suspect.

I do agree that combining aspects of various MA (martial arts) is nothing new. It’s been going on as long as MA have existed. Every single MA that exists today is a mixed method of various systems in some way or other. In the past, in China or Japan, for example, mixing different MAs would NOT have been as easy as in modern times. MA were often restricted to the military, or certain family members or groups. It would have been hard enough to gain access to study one MA, so the idea that an average person centuries ago could just go and freely learn different MAs is not very realistic. So when an exceptional (or lucky) practitioner WAS able to study different systems and combine his knowledge in a cohesive manner that worked in real combat, it was something special. The methods of the past would have been much tougher, simpler, more direct, and less “showy” than much of MA today. MAists of centuries ago almost certainly didn’t learn MA for “fun” or “fitness”.

Bruce Lee mixed a lot of Western methods into his JKD, such as his footwork (fencing, boxing), punches (boxing), kicking (some Savate), etc. We must remember that BL was a very young man. Anybody who has been in MA long enough has seen or known young (and not so young) MAists who are extremely arrogant *****s. Maybe even been one themselves. The MA world is full of them. I know I’ve certainly seen and met a ton of them. In this regard, BL was not unique. He simply had a bigger platform than most others of his time, and took full advantage of it.

I still like BL, but I also know he was a man with flaws like everyone else, and therefore not perfect. He also died very young; he probably would have matured a lot had he lived on. If I could only respect or admire people who lived 100% perfect, exemplary lives from day one, there would probably be nobody to respect or admire. As long as someone is taking an active role in becoming a better person, I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Remember that much of BL’s “legend” is something that was foisted onto him by other people after his death. He has his worshipers and his haters. I can still respect the positive things he did without worshiping him like some demi-god.

As for fixed fights in MMA, I have heard that some of the fights in Pride were fixed, due to the Yakuza.

6

Thanks Jimbo

Hey Jimbo, thank you for the great response. It is well articulated and very well written without insults. It’s hard to have a constructive chat about this topic with people getting into shouting matches.

I want adress two points:

About bruce.

You are right about him maturing. I think he was and he would have become an even greater person. He died too young. Unfortunately, the things he said stuck with him. I suspect, if he lived on… He probably would have taken back his “flowery movements” statement and may have even finished out wing chun. It’s hard to say… But, you could definetly tell the old Bruce and new Bruce were very different.

I do respect his great achievements and I hope he rests in peace. However, the dark sides of his life are rarely talked about. He became a protected brand a long time ago. His triad background, his beating of intructors who used to teach him, his street fights against gangsters, his temper and his insulting of traditional styles have all disappeared. His idea of learning footwork and boxing are purely Chinese martial arts philosophies. The masters of Xin Yi Liu He even stressed understanding new sciences, so as to learn how to fight them. When Bruce denounced all traditional styles as useless flowery movements, he really took the west in a wrong direction and hurt the scientific study of TMA deeply. If words had a very serious impact on Chinese martial arts and still do today. What makes him a hypocrite is that he continued to study this very science and fought with the science he grew up learning and condemning.

If you read Miyamoto Musashi’s book, he mentions travelling to distant lands to challenge and study from various masters. He mentioned meeting great masters of the east who wanted to exchange knowledge. Great Chinese martial artists of the ancient past always stressed learning your opponent’s science, so you can adapt them. This is also mentioned in Sun Tzu’ art of war: A chinese philosphical and war strategy book. Never become comfortable with one method. Be able to adapt. The roots and creation of cross training is a core concept of ancient asian martial arts. It was created by traditional asian minds (long before bruce lee or dana white), for which they won’t get credit.

Here is an interesting tid-bit:

If you go back to roots of early wrestling in the Uk. The guys who created it said they were ex-retired soldiers who travelled around the world and learned various grappling skills. They all came together and formed the roots of what became modern wrestling. What are one of the places they cited as a major influence: Asia.

In regard to militaristic MA usage.

Martials arts were and are for adverse combat. No nonsense. They were created from real life or death situations. Plain and simple. However, I want to stress that MA combative application are scientific. It requires study of many aspects to turn someone into a weapon. More than just hitting pads and wrestling all day. Bruce Lee obtained a lot of those scientific training and application methods. He was a beast for never actually mastering Wing Chun or any style for that matter. He was into the science of combat. That is what made him gain advancements in skill. But, he had major ego and self-control issues that I think hurt him as well. For the modern layman, it’s just too much work and there is no gold belts, sexy women or fame involved… So, why do it?

Asian martial arts encompass a very long history and the west has barely cracked the surface on the true science of them as many still don’t exist in the west. I mentioned Silat. I think it is brilliant, but I have been told there are many different versions of it and some deeper science is not widely taught.

Modern TMA in the west is suffering primarily due to combative science being removed from the equation by a lot of con men looking to make money. However, there are still legit people in the west teaching real life or death skills, self discipline and science. The way true MA should be taught. But, they are overshadowed by those looking to make a quick buck.

Additionally, MMA wants the combat market. The money is good in modern MMA and with the UFC being a global giant, it’s free marketing. Everyone can see John Doe was ko’d last night. You might live next door to someone who ko’d a person on tv last night. It’s a very exciting illusion. It looks effective and entertaining. You can’t watch someone pull out another person’s throat on live TV. That is murder. Or see someone take an elbow into an eye socket. Or see someone get stabbed while putting someone in a clinch. But, that is what real combat is like. Hence, why people of high science don’t reap joy from violence. It’s an ugly and grotesque thing. They study, they pracitice, they spar, they drill.. but, they don’t get joy from killing or hurting others. Musashi mentioned the spirit of a warrior and why he was undefeated. He studied science strictly. But, he hated evil violence or the love of hurting another human being.

The ideaology of MMA is different though. The love of violence is a part of it’s existence. People want blood and the feeling of easily gainable power. Power is seductive. MMA is given an appealing image of power in combat and fame. While I do think a lot of nice and decent people learn to become an MMA fighter. Let’s not forget, I did it too. It attracts a lot of people who love the violence and glory. There are no discipline rules/character building as it is mostly a vague ideaology, so anyone can learn anytime, if the price is right. So, you get quite a few dodgy characters learning how to do a rear naked choke. MMA may attract bullies looking to use those tools for dark purposes due to often rarely discussed culture of violence, drugs and profanity. It’s all just so entertaining in a fight club kind of way. Science and decency be ****ed. It’s one of the reason why I took a long hard look at MMA and decided to stop supporting it, aside from what I mentioned above. I still love the guys I used to know back then and I still respect the athletes, but it’s not for me.

Although, it is presented as cutting edge and the ultimate warrior’s way… MMA is continuing the quick buck tradition by claiming itself to be a great form of MA competency, instead of a rooted stolen ideaology (cross training) that came from asia that is presented as a sport. We now live in the age of McMMA gyms that can teach you to become a true warrior that can beat everyone. Combative science doesn’t work that way.

7

MMA is a sport?

NOOOOOOOO !!!

This is brand new information !!!

8

Hakaider:

Hi. I do believe there is awareness of the distinctions between TMA and the sport of MMA. I’ve even heard Joe Rogan in the past say while commentating (and I’m paraphrasing): “Lyoto Machida brings something different; he’s a REAL MAist, like a Bruce Lee MAist. He’s practiced karate all his life.” And I’ve heard him and/or other commentators say similar things about other fighters who came into the sport with years of previous training in any MA that differs from the 4 standard, “accepted” MA/sports of MMA: BJJ, wrestling, MT and boxing. Fighters like GSP, Anthony Pettis, Ronda Rousey, Yair Rodriguez, and others. That certainly distinguishes such fighters from those athletes who began their fight training purely in an MMA gym. Such ‘unique’ fighters help the sport to continually expand its ‘accepted’ skillset and evolve, even if it is in the sporting aspect.

Aside from the many YouTube trolls/armchair MMA fans (most of whom’s training probably consists of lifting beer and Cheetos to their faces), or certain fighters like Chael Sonnen, who thinks that anyone who practices MA but isn’t an MMA fighter is a wimp and a fraud, I believe most actual sport MMA participants are probably well aware that MA and the sport of MMA are two different things. That doesn’t mean that some aspects of MMA training can’t be applicable to real-world combat, just that the sport and the street are totally different environments, with different ‘rules’ of engagement. In the same way, much of what happens in your typical dojo, guan/kwoon, training hall, etc., is also a far cry from what occurs on the street, during a home invasion, etc.

9

Good Point

Thank you Jimbo.

I do agree that there is a distinction. However, seeing MMA for what it truly is, is important.

Joe Rogan also said:

“Kung fu guys train on some mountain and can’t fight.”

Another hilarious quote:

“Wing Chun Kung Fu is ineffective and useless.”

Let’s not forget that MMA champs have bashed tma before as well. A good example is one of current champs calling Bruce Lee a ***** on live tv.

Clearly, MMA and definetly the UFC are extremely smart in selling their ideas to the masses. As for combat training and science, there are schools that teach them. I do think the west has a lot of schools that are frauds and that includes MMA gyms as well. I would say there are even more frauds getting in MMA because of the easy money it generates. That doesn’t mean there are no legit people out there teaching high level science, but money goes where demand is and MMA is in demand for sure.

The attraction to mma is being able to contact with someone. While any form of resistence can be useful, that doesn’t mean science is obtained for real combat.

I think the main point of my post is simple: You have to know your path as a MA practitioner. Do you want to focus on scientific combat or sport? These are two different difficult paths. There are many cheaters and liars in both paths now. Both involves lots of physical training and resistence training, but their purposes are different. Do not be fooled into thinking MMA is a high level MA or combative science. It is merely a sport with an ideaology that has long existed before it’s inception. To gain science is the key to deep progress in combat. That involves discipline and intellectualism. I do think that MMA does provide benefits: It’s popular, you do get an idea of cross training, there is resistence and you become a part of the badass label that is well-marketed. However, that is no longer my path and I still respect to those pursue any path they choose. I do believe almost all forms of training can offer benefits, but it’s good to not fall into a dream world. It’s good to know one’s purpose and not get sucked into anything that deviates from reality.

Choose a path and choose wisely…

I totally respect your opinions Jimbo and I thank you for discussing this topic like a gentleman. MMA-holics (I used to be one) get pretty upset with any constructive analysis of MMA that doesn’t display it as having the best MA combatants in the world.

10

  1. You type too much and say little

  2. No one gives a **** what you think is “truth”. Your opinion means nothing really

MMA-holics (I used to be one) get pretty upset with any constructive analysis of MMA that doesn’t display it as having the best MA combatants in the world

There’s a really simple way to prove them wrong. MMA is empirical. Shut up and do it.

  1. You don’t know the first thing about science. (See #3)
11

SoCal KungFu,

I think you would feel better, if I said you are right. Ok, believe what you want. You like what you like and if it helps you feel good, fine. I wish you the best in your MMA career and I hope you continue to reap great joy from watching the sport you love. Your thoughts show that you have a great passion for MMA and support it deeply. I am glad you found something that makes you feel such happiness. I hope you go far in your endeavors.

I am out on this thread guys. I was hoping for more interesting debate and anaylsis. Thank you Jimbo for your opinions. Take care and thanks everyone.

12

The bashing of TCMA by MMA fighters is a left over to the days where there we NO RULE and the “too deadly” for fighting guys all got their ass handed to them.
And things haven’t changed.

In short:
If you can’t beat someone under limited rules, you can’t beat them under no rules.

13

Sorry to re-appear everyone. I won’t be staying here for long.

I want to respond to Sanjuro though.

I will not always reply against rabid MMA fans as I used to be one. I know there is very little reasoning with them.

About TCMA guys getting beaten up by MMA guys. It’s great marketing and supports MMA as a financial institution. No different than the other fighting fads or crazes of the past claiming to be the pinnacle. Here is why you are incorrect in your assessment.

  1. Masters of Ancient War

In ancient times, soldiers fought on a battle ground using kung fu as a very formidable science. They were jacked and extremely skilled. One man killing 10 with hand to hand combat. I believe these masters would destroy most MMA fighters with precision. But, that comparison doesn’t make too much sense as MMA fighters are not trained or focused on such things. Additionally, a lot of fake Kung fu fraudulent schools have moved away from their combative roots and sciences. If they ever understood them in the first place…

  1. Geographically and historically, it’s an illogical statement.

In order for your statement to be true, that means somehow MMA fighters travelled to Asia, located and beat down every Kung Fu Master and Hybrid Kung Fu practioner like philipino, malaysian and vietnamese masters. There are hundreds of different styles with tons of sub-systems with kung fu at their core or are influenced by them. So, I haven’t seen all these guys destroyed. Until, this is the case… your statement is full of lies and fluff. But, it is marketable.

  1. Getting into and becoming an MMA fighter doesn’t have some high criteria or benchmark to meet.

Kimbo Slice has deep combat knowledge like Ms. Piggy has anorexia. Dada 5000 had a heart attack moving around in a ring. Connor Mcgregor is only a brown belt in bjj and is looking for a big pay day to get out of the sport asap. RR was clearly someone who may have had a few hand picked fighters or cans. John Jones said it best: “The best guys are not in the octogon. The guys who train me are far skilled than I am.” Combative science goes far deeper than making someone tap. Since, the skill level of fighters in MMA is all over the place to quite low, it further solidifies the idea that MMA isn’t a martial art in itself and can’t really measure a form of high level combat competence.

  1. Random Youtube videos don’t mean much…

When I was an MMA-fanatic, I had very limited knowledge of what was really out there. I always showed the videos of guys getting killed by MMA fighters. Me and my buddies would laugh and wear our UFC shirts. Many around me were quick to say all TMA were frauds. Upon doing further research, I realized there are a lot of frauds in existence, but there quite a large amount of legit combative guys out there. Unfortunately, many legit guys got a bad and unfair label because a few childish challenges. On the flipside, there are plenty of MMA frauds in existence now because MMA is a cash cow. With my skill set, I could probably hurt a few people. I can film it and put it on youtube and then write: Kung Fu beats MMA. I wouldn’t do that because it would make me a tool, MMA is not a fighting style and the entire business community of MMA would hate me. That action in itself would take away potential customers from McMMA gyms by presenting MMA as not the end all be all. Even the Kung Fu community would probably dislike me for bringing unwanted challenges as a swarm of MMA knuckleheads may be looking to beat up the first “kung fu master” they see to regain dignity. Yet, none of this proves anything… Why? Those videos and skills can be produced rather easily to portray anyone as a badass. At the end of the day, those videos don’t really mean much or prove much.

  1. I fought and won. Nuff said.

I come from a traditional backgroud. I am proud of my heritage. I didn’t say I was an MMA fighter, when I fought in MMA matches. This irked some people, but I didn’t care. I proudly stood up for my art and adapted my skills to fight againt MMA fighters and I won. It proves that you don’t have to throw your traditional style under bus and start calling yourself MMA in order to gain respect. I don’t even have beef with MMA fighters or their community. I still train with my best friend who is an MMA guy. I just don’t respect guys who are lazy, got punched in the face, lacked the diligence to obtain deep knowledge and suddenly threw their entire style under a bus and say, “I’m MMA” as if it denotes they are untouchable now. I won several matches. I learned to adapt and deal with various types of resistence using my style as a base. I rep my style and I build upon it and explore it scientifically. I may not line the wallets of the MMA business machine by doing that, but I don’t care. They have enough cash anyway…

14

I am not incorrect in my assessment, it was and still is a matter of fact.

Yes, some of US in TCMA have fought in MMA and even, like myself and a couple of others here, in Vale Tudo matches that were truly no rules and no holds barred.
Expectations do not make the rules.

The reality is that typical MMA fighter is a far better fighter than the typical TCMA and I don’t know or anyone that will disagree.

The reality is that rules even out the playing field and if a person can’t beat another with rules, it is far harder to beat them without rules since they TOO can do whatever they want ( the no rule speople tend to forget that little piece of the puzzle- what we do is only 50% of the fight, they other 50% is what the opponent does).

People that don’t think much of MMA fighting are free to test their view out in any MMA gym because THEIR door is always open ( remember when that was the same for TMA? I do.)

15

I do agree with Sanjuro that the typical MMA fighter is a much better fighter than the typical TCMA practitioner. In fact, even a competitive moderate to full-contact, non-MMA, TCMA fighter will be a better fighter than most TCMAists who haven’t fought competitively. It’s really about reactions and mindset under pressure.

Of course, there are MMA fighters who cannot make the transition to a street fighting mindset, but a high percentage of TMAists are the same, whether they practice the ‘dirtier’ or ‘deadly’ moves or not. Those same dirty or deadly moves are also available for the sport fighter as well, and many are fully aware of them.

TBH, I really don’t get the disdain that each side (sport MMA and TMA) has for each other. It’s silly. “The enemy” are the various threats that can happen unexpectedly, whether on the street, in the home, in your car, in a crowded environment, etc. ANYONE can “get got”, no matter your training or lack of. If some psychopath goes on a shooting rampage, whether you are MMA, TMA or not, you’d better try to run and hide your @ss. There are many scenarios that typical MMA and TMA do not address adequately, if at all.

16

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1299837]I do agree with Sanjuro that the typical MMA fighter is a much better fighter than the typical TCMA practitioner. In fact, even a competitive moderate to full-contact, non-MMA, TCMA fighter will be a better fighter than most TCMAists who haven’t fought competitively. It’s really about reactions and mindset under pressure.

Of course, there are MMA fighters who cannot make the transition to a street fighting mindset, but a high percentage of TMAists are the same, whether they practice the ‘dirtier’ or ‘deadly’ moves or not. Those same dirty or deadly moves are also available for the sport fighter as well, and many are fully aware of them.

TBH, I really don’t get the disdain that each side (sport MMA and TMA) has for each other. It’s silly. “The enemy” are the various threats that can happen unexpectedly, whether on the street, in the home, in your car, in a crowded environment, etc. ANYONE can “get got”, no matter your training or lack of. If some psychopath goes on a shooting rampage, whether you are MMA, TMA or not, you’d better try to run and hide your @ss. There are many scenarios that typical MMA and TMA do not address adequately, if at all.[/QUOTE]

Quite correct.
IMO, MMA is simply a venue to be used to test your skills and ALL, including TCMA, should use it.
No real good reason NOT to use it.

17

While I think you both have a point…

I politely disagree.

Firstly, limiting rules doesn’t mean you will be amazing with no rules. They are different sciences and focuses. If I say to you, our rules are limited to having a pillow fight. Just because you are the pillow fighting champion doesn’t mean you can suddenly destroy people in a real fight. How you train is how you fight and what is possible involves a lot of study. Being good at limited rules doesn’t mean you can suddenly beat others with expanded rules. It just means you are good at fighting a certain method. Science and knowledge with experience dictates everything. Your example is like me playing street fighter 3 third strike. I say to my friend, we can only shoot fireballs. He can beat me everytime. That’s different from having a full on match in the game. If am used to using a wider range skillset and he has these fire ball matches, he will lose.

You remind of when some shady Sanda organization have their annual Sanda vs. Muay Thai matches. They always tell the Muay Thai guys: “no knees and elbows allowed.” So, the Sanda guys have a better chance to win a what they are good at. Just because you fight in MMA doesn’t mean you have deep science. MMA is not an MA or scientific method. It’s just a fighting competition with rules that support a certain type of fighting style. For example: I study grappling extensively. Certain forms of grappling is a lot less risky in MMA in terms of punishment, so using it is a huge advantage.

In terms of the average TCMA vs MMA skillwise in a fight:

It’s rather hard to quantify, the average this or that. The main issue is that we haven’t met all MMA or TCMA people. There are certainly a large number of fraudelunt people in both areas. When referring to science and systems, MMA has none. Any of it’s usefulness will come from TMA. MMA has no science other than the idea of cross training which is not new, but is it’s main selling point. It’s hard to compare them as they are completely different. MMA is ONLY a fighting competition. It offers no curriculum or skillset because it’s not an MA. The skills largely derive from the TMA people you learn from. TCMA is a very deep set of fighting systems that were used in war that include a large set of tested sciences on the battlefield. They are two different mindsets and paths.

As to why some TMA people can’t fight. One word: frauds and those misled by frauds. TMA was a huge marketed cash cow in the same vein of MMA currently. Many so called masters appeared to make fast money. These guys got called out and got wrecked and many of them have backed down largely. In terms of TMA, how many people are legit in places like America, Uk and so on… That is hard to know. With the vast amount of systems in existence, only a fraction actually exist in the west to begin with. Of those small portions, many frauds are looking to a quick buck. However, there are legit and skillfull people out there despite some of the phonies.

It’s kinda rediculous to say average this or that because there is no real way to actually base this off of anything.The world is full of TMA practioners, where do you think MMA trainers need to get some collective basic skills from ;). With that said, with so many people out there around the world and a wide range of fighting styles, it’s hard to make a definitive statement on who can beat who.

If you want to talk about the MMA community as a collective. There are many people who wash out of MMA or try it for a year. In terms of business retention, a gym is a gym with a majority of people washing out after 3 to 6 months. Most people getting into it will never become high level or even learn deep combative knowledge. That comprises a huge amount of people. So, it’s hard to claim a vast majority of people in MMA can fight. Hell a few of the top UFC champs can admit their science wasn’t very deep. They train to win belts, not to become combat generals. The juicing and rampant cheating doesn’t help their cause.

Frauds are now appearing in MMA as well. It has become flooded with many more McMMA gyms and people looking to cash in. I have been to places where people are learning absolute hot garbage. In fact opening an MMA gym is quite easy and there no governing body and since MMA has no set curriculum it is quite easy to scam people. In fact, making the switch from being a TMA scam artists into an MMA scam artist is not too hard. It may be even more profitable.

I do agree with Jimbo in regard to having peace between MMA and TMA. I think the big issue when both MMA and TMA taken out of reality by bigots, keyboard warriors and elitism from frauds on both sides. However, we can’t deny that MMA is a huge business and as much they may not admit it, they would much rather reduce TMA in terms of market share and influence. Any possible dent in the illusion that MMA is home to the world’s greatest and deepest combatants is seen as blasphemy.

If you wipe away all of frauds and bs, you come to realization. You go to various TMA sciences to learn how to utilize and study combative knowledge/skills. If you are not learning combat, then you have a fraud teaching you… You go to MMA to fight in an attempt to win a belt or title. MMA is not an MA, it an opportunity (for many) to test a collective mixed subset of mostly unmastered skills (derived from TMA), geared towards ENTERTAINMENT that provides people with a nice collection of life long injuries and feeling of being a badass for 1000 bucks on a good night.

18

[QUOTE=Hakaider;1299828]
I will not always reply against rabid MMA fans as I used to be one. I know there is very little reasoning with them.[/quote]

Translation: I don’t have anything to back up my claims so I’m going home. And genetic fallacy.

About TCMA guys getting beaten up by MMA guys. It’s great marketing and supports MMA as a financial institution. No different than the other fighting fads or crazes of the past claiming to be the pinnacle. Here is why you are incorrect in your assessment.

No, its ****ing demonstrable reality. Don’t be an idiot.

  1. Masters of Ancient War

In ancient times, soldiers fought on a battle ground using kung fu as a very formidable science.

Nothing you have done in kungfu is adapted for battlefield use. Civilian self defense and warfare are two totally different things. Neither of which do you seem to know jack **** about.

They were jacked and extremely skilled. One man killing 10 with hand to hand combat.

If you want to talk about your larper fantasies or world of Warcraft, take your **** to the off topic forum

I believe these masters would destroy most MMA fighters with precision. But, that comparison doesn’t make too much sense as MMA fighters are not trained or focused on such things. Additionally, a lot of fake Kung fu fraudulent schools have moved away from their combative roots and sciences. If they ever understood them in the first place…

You’re pleading. And look stupid.

  1. Geographically and historically, it’s an illogical statement.

In order for your statement to be true, that means somehow MMA fighters travelled to Asia, located and beat down every Kung Fu Master and Hybrid Kung Fu practioner like philipino, malaysian and vietnamese masters. There are hundreds of different styles with tons of sub-systems with kung fu at their core or are influenced by them. So, I haven’t seen all these guys destroyed. Until, this is the case… your statement is full of lies and fluff. But, it is marketable.

Moving the goal post and argument from ignorance

  1. Getting into and becoming an MMA fighter doesn’t have some high criteria or benchmark to meet.

Then larpers should be all up in the cage. Funny how that isn’t the case… This is also irrelevant to you opening argument.

Kimbo Slice has deep combat knowledge like Ms. Piggy has anorexia. Dada 5000 had a heart attack moving around in a ring.

And both of those people have done what 99% of traditional, martial artists never do, BEFORE they stepped into an actual cage.

Connor Mcgregor is only a brown belt in bjj

Only… and also, still irrelevant

and is looking for a big pay day to get out of the sport asap. RR was clearly someone who may have had a few hand picked fighters or cans.

And I take it, you regularly go up against people that are the objectively demonstrable best fighters around in whatever biological designation you happen to be?

John Jones said it best: “The best guys are not in the octogon. The guys who train me are far skilled than I am.”

Clearly you totally missed is point.

Combative science goes far deeper than making someone tap.

No one argued against this. Interestingly, YOU are the moron trying to build a myopic strawman to flail against.

Since, the skill level of fighters in MMA is all over the place to quite low, it further solidifies the idea that MMA isn’t a martial art in itself and can’t really measure a form of high level combat competence.

In what ****ing world does joining the red with the blue make a logical statement? You know, your apparent inability to demonstrate basic reasoning is the best evidence you’ve presented thus far that you actually have experience getting punched in the head…

If the green is true, then kung fu is far worse.

  1. Random Youtube videos don’t mean much…

When I was an MMA-fanatic, I had very limited knowledge of what was really out there. I always showed the videos of guys getting killed by MMA fighters. Me and my buddies would laugh and wear our UFC shirts. Many around me were quick to say all TMA were frauds. Upon doing further research, I realized there are a lot of frauds in existence, but there quite a large amount of legit combative guys out there. Unfortunately, many legit guys got a bad and unfair label because a few childish challenges. On the flipside, there are plenty of MMA frauds in existence now because MMA is a cash cow. With my skill set, I could probably hurt a few people. I can film it and put it on youtube and then write: Kung Fu beats MMA. I wouldn’t do that because it would make me a tool, MMA is not a fighting style and the entire business community of MMA would hate me. That action in itself would take away potential customers from McMMA gyms by presenting MMA as not the end all be all. Even the Kung Fu community would probably dislike me for bringing unwanted challenges as a swarm of MMA knuckleheads may be looking to beat up the first “kung fu master” they see to regain dignity. Yet, none of this proves anything… Why? Those videos and skills can be produced rather easily to portray anyone as a badass. At the end of the day, those videos don’t really mean much or prove much.

You’re pleading again.

  1. I fought and won. Nuff said.

I come from a traditional backgroud. I am proud of my heritage.

So does everyone else here, you’re not special.

I didn’t say I was an MMA fighter, when I fought in MMA matches.

No one gives a ****.

This irked some people, but I didn’t care./quote]
I doubt they lost sleep. You’re not that important.

[quote]I proudly stood up for my art and adapted my skills to fight againt MMA fighters and I won.

So says every other larper that shows up here.

It proves that you don’t have to throw your traditional style under bus and start calling yourself MMA in order to gain respect.

Another strawman

I don’t even have beef with MMA fighters or their community.

No one ****ing cares. You’re attempting to qualify your opinion by appealing to emotion rather than just simply making a ****ing logical argument.

I still train with my best friend who is an MMA guy.

I’m not racist, I have a lot of black friends but…

I just don’t respect guys who are lazy, got punched in the face, lacked the diligence to obtain deep knowledge and suddenly threw their entire style under a bus and say, “I’m MMA” as if it denotes they are untouchable now.

Yet you seem to be the only one making this case…

I won several matches. I learned to adapt and deal with various types of resistence using my style as a base. I rep my style and I build upon it and explore it scientifically. I may not line the wallets of the MMA business machine by doing that, but I don’t care. They have enough cash anyway…

Want a cookie?

Edit:

scientific method

You keep using this phrase like you ****ing think you know what it means. As an actual, experienced scientist, you don’t ****ing understand the 1st thing about empiricism and hypothesis testing. If you did, this idiotic thread wouldn’t have been started and you’d be out training with all these fighters you supposedly know, rather than coming here to make yourself look like an idiot.

MMA is empirical (science). STFU and go do it. Or go take your larp ass off to play age of wushu.

19

[QUOTE=Hakaider;1299842] You go to MMA to fight in an attempt to with(sic) a belt or title. MMA is not a science, it an opportunity to test a collective mixed subset of mostly unmastered skills (derived from TMA).[/QUOTE]

Ignoring your unsubstantiated emphasis I’ve italicizes; this is interesting because objectively testing a procedure in a reproducible fashion is nearly the exact process of scientific inquiry. You’re a moron.

20

SoCal Kung Fu,

Your reactions, cursing and insults as an MMA fan basically justifies everything i’m saying. You do realize you are representing yourself as an MMA fan right? Just look at your signatures. Your behavior actually gives people a snapshot of what an MMA fanatic acts like. Of COURSE, you can’t understand what I mean by science or even history. I don’t have the patience to explain it to you, since you are already so knowledgable about it.

Your anger and insults also proves there is some truth in what i’m saying. If what I am saying is not true, then why are you so angry. Deep down inside, am I questioning something you hold very dear to you. Hence, your anger. For a martial artist, you really have poor self-control. Is this what you learn in terms of personal conduct from your MMA classes? I guess from seeing the way Mcgreggor speaks at press conferences, I take that as a yes?

Yes, I have friends in many different martial backgrounds. Since, I did MMA in the past I have a some buddies from that area too. I am not sure what you mean black guy thing? Am I supposed to give you my real info and background, so you can fact check me. I totally would, but you seem a few cards short of a full deck. If I am an MMA guy who says he knows TMA people, is that some black guy thing too. You should be a comedian, since I find you quite hilarious. Am I supposed to avoid MMA people or something? I have had the same topic with people with MMA experience as well. At least they conduct themselves with decency.

I have no idea what a larp is… don’t care to find out. It seems you know a lot about it.

I think you should take your own advice and do you. If you wanna be the UFC champ, then do you bro. If you feel I have hurt your precious MMA feeling then… Buy a Mcgreggor doll and hug it to sleep? Pray to MMA jesus?

Why spend life in a rage with someone. Go out and make those MMA dreams come true.

Alright, guys… I’m out for now.