“AS one who has been in the SD school for a while, when you read these posts that speak out against the SD school, does it bar your progress in your training? also, what are your feelings about OTHER schools,in general?”
I CERTAINLY don’t feel it bars my progress or training. My typical overall feeling when someone is trashing Shaolin-Do is mild frustration…I don’t think anyone who came and sat in on one of MY instructor’s classes could say such negative things. The training is hard, focusing on application and form, and including sparring, etc.
Based on my own experiences I have to dismiss statements like BeiKongHui’s asserting that Shaolin-Do students can’t fight. I’ve seen SD students in sparring, tourneys and HEARD of actual fights…they do well, very well. In my mind the effectiveness of the system and the HISTORY of the system are two completely different things. Grandmaster Sin could step forth tomorrow and say, “Ok, I don’t know 900+ forms to the point of MASTERY, and I changed the name of the system to Shaolin-Do when I got to the U.S. to capitalize on the then current karate craze. By the way, I’ve modified the system slightly since it was taught to me by my grandfather, as is my right as the Grandmaster, to include some very wonderful things other styles were doing. This is after all VERY in keeping with the spirit of form collecting and catagorizing done by the original Shaolin temples.” And I’d still feel I was studying a very complete and well organized system, even without all the history we’ve been given. (Note: I’m not saying that I think all that, but many outside the style do seem to pick at those specific things quite a bit.) In fact, I’ve studied Shorin-Ryu Karate, small circle jujitsu, judo, aikido and MMA and Shaolin-Do is by FAR the most realistic and effective martial art I’ve run across (hardest training too).
My feelings about other schools? I think martial art training is a very personal thing…a personal thing with a few universal truths that come forth when you find the right school (and instructor) for you. I have a nephew sorely lacking for discipline, if he went to the local TKD school and found the structured classes and stern instructor there gave him the discipline he lacked then I’d say he found the best school for him. My aunt lacks confidence. If she went to the local judo club and throwing someone across the room improved her self esteem, then I think she found the school she needed as well. I think most schools offer SOMETHING, the trick is finding out if the something they offer is the something you need.
ws: OK sorry for that sin pun. I just can’t resist bad puns.
In our Mar/Apr issue we ran a story about the Southern Shaolin Temple by David Theroff. The southern temple has always been of interest so we thought our readers would find it worthy. David discussed his master Sin Te and the backlash was incredible, the worst we have had for any single master. Personally, I was astounded that our readers had so many issues with Sin Te that they overlooked the southern temple. They could see the young forest for the TrEe. OK another bad pun, but I gotta throw 'em done here becasue Martha edits me in the mag.
SD: I don’t feel comfortable discussing that story here. Let me leave it at this - I hold a lot of secrets, more than I care too AND there are other members of this forum who were there and might be more willing to retell it, but you’ll have to find them.
Also, in regards to your reply to hasayfu, even the best masters might pull a form off video. Remember I see the accounts of almost 20,000 schools at Tiger Claw, so if I really want to, I can see who orders what and how it affects their curriculam. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with that - research is research and I would be skeptical of any master who stops their research. Your point is well taken, but its sort of a hand-w/o-Sin-casts-the-1st-stone problem. Was that another pun? At least it was biblical…
Gene- You are right about the videos. I personally watch them to pick up some finer details of Kungfu and learn more about my martial cousins. I personally find it very difficult to learn an entire form from a video but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. I personally think that someone who does learn a form from a video without ever have teken a lesson from the master who created the video shouldn’t teach it though. The only info would be taken from the video and which would you rather learn from, someone who only learned from video or someone like your Sifu Wing Lam who learned directly from the masters of the styles he is teaching.
this is the kind of discussions that i feel make this forum worthy of staying on. in my resaerch so far the things that i have come up with are interesting; most have a problem with the claims
GM Sin has made in his book. that seems to be the focal point of the whole SD thing. Also the forms themselves not being of true Shaolin origin.
Purity is the issue here: regardless of how one thinks the martial ability of SD students and masters. i have yet to recieve any info regarding the illegitimacy of what GM Sin claims.
remember i am not looking for what i call “common sense opinions” i am looking for facts. for me facts are documentation/pictures/revealed secrets/etc.
now here is a question for all of you:
if you could sit down with Sin The’ and ask him
questions(in a respectful manner) what would you ask him? try to think of it as that you both are in a resteraunt with bottomless pot of green tea chatting.(without his or your students looming overhead)
many respects, willow sword.
oh what i would ask him: would you like another cup of tea sir?
sd: Actually Lam Sifu learns quite a bit from video and books. He trained intensively in HK under his various Sifus until his late teens, and has taken an occasional lesson since (most notably from Sun Jianyun) but he is constantly reading and watches videos to further his research.
Personally for me, after writing over 100 videos, it’s really hard for me to sit down and watch them any more. I have a whole stack right next to my desk here that are awaiting review.
ws: Glad you’re enjoying the forum. It can be real fun as long as you don’t take the trolls seriously.
So what to ask Sin Te? Hmmm, just one question? That’s tough. In an interview I would react to his answers, so it would be more dynamic. But one question…
“Do you subscribe to Kungfu Qigong?”
I think what would be even better would be for Sin The’ to prove what he has already said, with documentation etc. You can’t go around making the claims and boasts that he does without expecting to come under some sort of fire.
I don’t think very many people have documentation to disprove anything, but then again, Sin doesn’t have any documentation to prove anything either. And common sense, history, general martial arts knowledge and the accounts of other people go against him.
The thing with Sin The’ lifting forms off of videos is he is doing it in large amounts, like the entirety of the seven star praying mantis
material he has been teaching at seminars.
Also, it’s one thing to pull a form off a video, it’s another thing to go that extra step and pass it off as your own and say it was handed
down to you from your teacher and it came from the shaolin temple.
In my opinion these things are not harmless. Not in the sheer volume and outlandishness we are talking about here.
Think about it this way. For a long time material that was taught out could not be found anywhere else. None of the original material could be found at other schools, on videos etc. But a lot of the newer material that has been taught out in recent years can easily be found on video. And this started even before the advent of the internet. And as far as not hearing about anyone suing him for ‘stealing’ material, I doubt if that is even possible. Oh wait a minute, Sin would know about that. He tried to sue a former student of his for material. But the case was dismissed when his brother had notes for the same material, and then had notes for material he didn’t have. And then Sin pulls seven star praying mantis out of the air?
The only people that will vouch for Sin The’ and his stories and claims, are his students, and that is like saying John Gotti is a good guy because his mother said so (not that I’m comparing Sin to Gotti at all).
You would expect his followers to stand up for him.
It’s the total lack of external respect that is telling.
[This message was edited by Ground Dragon on 06-06-01 at 04:14 PM.]
[This message was edited by Ground Dragon on 06-06-01 at 04:17 PM.]
I don’t know what Shaolin Do are like as fighters, and I don’t know their training methods. They may be good fighters and they may train very hard. All I can say is that what I saw on the video clips, and what I read of the style says “Not Shaolin” to me. I may be wrong, but that is my gut feel on this.
cxxx:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity
Please, if you will, outline the videos you claim GM Sin is “allegedly” borrowing/stealing from?
give me titles and authors of videos and where i can view these videos.
many respects,Willow Sword
Grandmaster Sin was never at the temple…er, not studying anyway Monkeyslap Too. I’m not even sure that the shaolin-do history claims that Grandmaster Ie was there.
Ground Dragon, I do have a question for you. Why doesn’t YOUR Grandmaster (Grandmaster Sin’s brother) step up and do an article in KFQ telling about HIS life? He was right there training beside Grandmaster Sin, the article wouldn’t have to be an assault on Shaolin-Do, just his perspective. (I GUESS he could leave out the fact that Grandmaster Sin was the one who was handed the title Grandmaster as well…but that would seem kind of sour grapes.) I have to admit Master Hiang’s students attacking shaolin-do is to me the height of hypocrisy. Newsflash: Your school was started by a breakaway faction of shaolin-do students. Any attacks you launch toward Grandmaster Sin can only reflect badly upon your own Grandmaster…after all HE HELPED MAKE SHAOLIN-DO WHAT IT IS TODAY. He’s still very respected by the upper echelon shaolin-do students I’ve talked to who learned from him.
Lets not turn this into bash fest or ego posturing, please. all i will say is that issue is between the brothers and that is where it must stay,it is NONE of our buisiness.
Many respects, willow sword
well i just got finished reading ALL of the SD related posts,and i am about finished with the research project..now all i need is a few more things,then i will make my final post on the subject. whew this has been tiresom, to say the least.
Many respects,willow sword.
Willow Sword -
I seem to remember more than one website with these videos for sale. One in particular I remember is Jon Funk’s site (just do a search for it). Seven star praying mantis seems to be fairly widespread, I’m sure there are other sites. Point being, they are readily available.
For your research project, you may want to get in touch with the folks over at cyberkwoon.com (sorry for the rival plug Gene), I know at least one person there did some research on it.
Radhnoti-
I want to clarify something with you. I am not attacking the style, nor have I ever, just one specific person. Now if I came out and said shaolin-do was worthless and a waste of time, etc, that would be approaching hypocritical. However, I still wouldn’t recommend the style to people because of Sin The’, and that is the only reason. I am not calling into question your abilities, material (except for the video subject) or your teacher’s abilities. While you may be willing to study a style headed by a man that likes to exaggerate (to put it kindly), I don’t think most people would find that a positive trait. If someone can fudge the truth on one thing, what’s to keep them from doing it on another?
When Master Hiang came to this country, he taught on his own at first. He was his own man, and had his own students. It was later on that the brothers taught together. When the brothers split, it was not ‘a break away faction of shaolin do’. Far from it. The students that went with him were by and far students that had been with him and students that studied primarily under him. He doesn’t use the name shaolin do because that name was a creation of Sin The’ when he came to this country. We are tied to each other in terms of history, where some of the material comes from and the relation of the heads of our respective systems, but we are not a faction of shaolin do.
As to him writing an article. Why? He has nothing to prove. He doesn’t go around making any certain claims about himself. And besides I can’t speak for him. There are no sour grapes on his part, he just wants to teach. Appearing in a magazine would be out of character for him I would think. He is not very self promoting and anyone that knows him or has had experience with him would tell you the same. This whole mess of a thread that’s going on right now? I would venture to say he could care less.
Now with all that being said, I would much rather have discussions with you and willow sword about more productive things.
First let me say I have nothing for or against SD. I’m approaching this topic from a purely academic POV since you asked for it.
OK, you state you have not seen FACTs against SD and only logical opinions. We’ll ignore the fact (pun intended) that inference is a legal form of proof but at this point, it’s hard for for me to give you fact when there hasn’t been any definitions laid out. So what does SD claim?
Look at Radhnoti’s what if post. This is the crux of the matter. If Sin did say the things in the what if, there wuld be no problem. But since he didn’t say those things, there is a problem with him claiming a deep and rich history when most of it really started with him.
It would be like Bruce Lee saying that JKD was an ancient system handed down to him in secret when really it was what he made up. So the only part I disagree with the what if is saying it keeps with the shaoling tradition of collecting. It would be if he was honest in where they collecting was from.
If all the Shaolin-Do people are so sure of the The’ brothers facts why don’t you (SD people) ask one of them to come onto this forum and defend their claims?
“Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao”
When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.
I do this research for my own purposes. the fact that GM Sin will not address this forum makes no difference to me. He will not, so i will as a loyalist to the system. HOWEVER, being a loyalist to the SD school i am in no means obligated to speak for anyone other than myself in this matter. This is what i will say about what I FEEL the SD school is: It is a hybrid system of martial arts combining that of hard and soft elements of chinese kung-fu and japanese style techniques. The SD school is a modernized school that traces its ROOTS back to the Shaolin Temple.
IS SD shaolin kung fu? NO(in my opinion) it is Shaolin-DO kung-fu. In my opinion about the book that GM Sin and james halladay wrote,could have been better. i think that another book is in order. As fars as what GM Sin claims as heritage and lineage, that is what he claims. There are questions to be asked about it. We all, in the martial arts relm, claim a hertiage of some sort,either from shaolin temple or elswhere. as for the video thing; i am looking into it,im not quite finished yet with the research. please note: That I AM NOT doing this to disclaim GMSIN or to go against my school.
i do this for i really need to understand the feelings here and get the info i need to help ME with MY school. I feel that in my heart that i am an honest person and a good teacher and i would love to have a kindredship with all of you. for i am not an isolationist. thisis the community to which i have put myself into and i would like to be respected as i respect all of you and your lineages and systems. what i have accumilated and studied and lived for the past 15 yrs comes from several sources,one being SD and that being the bulk of what i have learned. And i want to learn more. when i stste that i mean that i want to learn more about what i do interms of internal systems and share knowlege and new/old ideas realized. this is why i am leading this discussion. ,i will post my final say on this subject soon,then i will move onto more “productive things” as one member posted earlier. Many Respects,Willow Sword.
