A manifesto for modern kung fu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=pazman;1269969]Yeah, I should have said “modern JMA”. In any case, I never felt friction in JMA between doing the old-school stuff and modern stuff. People who don’t practice Judo claim that all the dangerous techniques were removed from jiujitsu. The style of Aikido I practiced in Japan is considered a “sport style” but the syllabus contains things that are verifiably more “traditional” than many other Aikido schools. If you were both a volunteer Kendo instructor and also part of a traditional ryuha, nothing would seem out of place.

I don’t really get this feeling in the CMA community. What CMA schools openly embraces both modern and traditional practices and arranges them in a logical and cohesive way? Are there enough to start a trend?[/QUOTE]

Very well said.
It is true that in most JMA systems the sport and tradition don’t oppose each other it tends to happen in CMA.
Of course there are still exceptions and still lineage issues even in JMA, just less because the JMA ryu tend to keep their books a lot better than the CMA did/do.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269971]It is true that in most JMA systems the sport and tradition don’t oppose each other it tends to happen in CMA.[/QUOTE]

In another forum, I tried to argue with those Ninjutsu guys about “sparring is important”. But all they care are just “alive training” such as:

In ninjutsu it is very common to learn defences and offenses to scenarios, Such as both sitting in sieza and one person attacks with a knife. …

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1269968]

I’m a official Sanda coach in Changchun Normal University but all I know is TCMA and I know nothing about kickboxing.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=zh-CHS&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fold.cncnc.org%2F[/QUOTE]

This is the sort of sideways conversation I HATE… not you John, and I know what you MEAN, but it’s too convoluted

You ARE a Sanda coach because you can train guys to fight…

What do they fight WITH? Not just throws, but kicks and punches also

What does “kickboxing” really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination.. people try to redefine it but that is really it

Sanda, Muay Thai, Japanese “kickboxing”, Savate, Holland style “kickboxing” etc are all kickboxing

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1269974]This is the sort of sideways conversation I HATE… not you John, and I know what you MEAN, but it’s too convoluted

You ARE a Sanda coach because you can train guys to fight…

What do they fight WITH? Not just throws, but kicks and punches also

What does “kickboxing” really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination.. people try to redefine it but that is really it

Sanda, Muay Thai, Japanese “kickboxing”, Savate, Holland style “kickboxing” etc are all kickboxing[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t talking about specific techniques or styles, I’m talking about not knowing one thing about kickboxing and trying fight with it because you think it’s just a couple of techniques. That’s what I call bad kickboxing. In that case, a student is better off going somewhere that specializes in kickboxing like your gym and learning how to properly kickbox.

Here’s an example… This is just boxing, forget about kicking and throwing - and look at the nuggets that he’s giving in these vids and this is just barely scratching the surface https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF66EF45B433FFE18. Sure you may know how to throw a jab and a cross but that doesn’t make you a boxer. capicé?

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1269980]

Here’s an example… This is just boxing, forget about kicking and throwing - and look at the nuggets that he’s giving in these vids and this is just barely scratching the surface https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF66EF45B433FFE18. Sure you may know how to throw a jab and a cross but that doesn’t make you a boxer. capicé?[/QUOTE]

you are criticizing Rodney King???

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Actually - if a TCMA practitioner was serious about finding their fighting root it wouldn’t be in MMA IMO. It’d be in a Dog Brothers type environment. To get back to the old fighting ways - cross train some FMA and then stick fight.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1269982]you are criticizing Rodney King???[/QUOTE]

NOOOOO, either I’m writing poorly or you’re misreading what I’m writing. I’m saying look at what he’s saying in those vids and that’s just a tiny portion of what he has to say. So, if Joe Average thinks that boxing is just the ability to Jab and Cross, they have the wrong idea. To learn to box, you have to find a Rodney King to coach you.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1269974]What does “kickboxing” really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination..[/QUOTE]

What I’m trying to say. A certain kick and punch combo may not exist in your TCMA forms but it doesn’t meant that you can’t create it yourself. One may say it’s may water down your TCMA style. To me, it’s enhancement of my TCMA style.

I have learned “right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook” combo from my long fist (Pu An Dui Da) 2 men form. I have also learned “right hook, right back fist, left uppercut” combo from my prey mantis Ren Je form. If I re-arrange it into “right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut” combo which doesn’t exist in my TCMA forms, it doesn’t mean that I try to fight like a boxer. IMO, kickboxing is the end product of the TCMA. One can reach to kickboxing from different paths. The term “kickboxing” is not a bad word.

[QUOTE=MightyB;1269984]To learn to box, you have to find a Rodney King to coach you.[/QUOTE]

Do I care to fight like a boxer? I don’t. No matter how I fight, I still kick and punch like a long fist guy (or a pray mantis guy).

If you use the following tools effectively such as

  • jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, …
  • front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, …

you will fight like a kickboxer no matter you like it or not. If you can’t use those tools effectively, you may throw one punch, move back, throw a kick, move back, … That’s not what a TCMA guy suppose to fight like either.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1269986]Do I care to fight like a boxer? I don’t. No matter how I fight, I still kick and punch like a long fist guy (or a pray mantis guy).

If you use the following tools effectively such as

  • jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, …
  • front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, …

you will fight like a kickboxer no matter you like it or not. If you can’t use those tools effectively, you may throw one punch, move back, throw a kick, move back, … That’s not what a TCMA guy suppose to fight like either.[/QUOTE]

To build on what MightyB was saying, with those, it’s still not the same as kickboxing or kung fu. Evasions are as important as strikes, and set them up. I know you know this, but they are in kung fu as well. I find it useful to look at kung fu moves, and look at boxing or judo or muay thai and see how they use the same moves. I invariably find that the differences in kung fu relate to the idea of integrated striking and throwing, and I end up knowing more about my kung fu.

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1270068]the differences in kung fu relate to the idea of integrated striking and throwing,[/QUOTE]

Yes! TCMA is an integration art. boxing is a pure punching art.

When a

  • boxer punches, he will punch out, pull back, punch out again.
  • TCMA guy punches, he will punch out, pull back with something (never come back with empty hand), and …

There is a big difference in strategy used there. I can see to go from boxing to TCMA. I just can’t see to go the other way around.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270072]Yes! TCMA is an integration art. boxing is a pure punching art.

When a

  • boxer punches, he will punch out, pull back, punch out again.
  • TCMA guy punches, he will punch out, pull back with something (never come back with empty hand), and …

There is a big difference in strategy used there. I can see to go from boxing to TCMA. I just can’t see to go the other way around.[/QUOTE]

I watched a fight not too long ago, it’s old footage, guy named Charley Burley. He was known as a very technical boxer. The fight barely had any combos, because Charley Burley was a bit older, and the other fighter outweighed him, so Charley Burley played his defense so well that his opponent had very little guarantee of landing the first blow, much less a combo, and Charley was just either going in and hitting his opponent and getting out, or his opponent would come in to hit him, Charley dodged it while hitting his opponent and then jumping out, because he knew he could control the fight that way. Everyone once in a while, Charley would just jump in, uppercut his opponent, and jump out. Round after round of it. It was not exciting to watch.

But he just wasn’t getting hit much at all. I’ve never seen anyone, kung fu, boxing, whatever dodge like that that consistently for that many rounds in his late career.

A lot of what he was doing to dodge are old boxing guard work, and are similar to a couple things people do in drunken boxing in spear sets, except, showing it by dodging for round after round.

I just find it makes me understand my stuff to see other stuff. I don’t have to use their version, but I always seem to understand mine better that way.

If someone’s done it in the ring, some Chinese person invented it first and then added an aerial maneuver.

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1270079]dodging for round after round.[/QUOTE]

From a striker point of view, dodging may sound like a good idea. From a grappler point of view, it’s counter productive. How can an octopus be able to catch any fish if it’s afraid to move closer to that fish?

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1270082]From a striker point of view, dodging may sound like a good idea. From a grappler point of view, it’s counter productive. How can an octopus be able to catch any fish if it’s afraid to move closer to that fish?[/QUOTE]

He was not far on a lot of those dodges, he was dodging to stay in range.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1269986]
Do I care to fight like a boxer? I don’t. No matter how I fight, I still kick and punch like a long fist guy (or a pray mantis guy).

If you use the following tools effectively such as

  • jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, …
  • front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, …

you will fight like a kickboxer no matter you like it or not. If you can’t use those tools effectively, you may throw one punch, move back, throw a kick, move back, … That’s not what a TCMA guy suppose to fight like either.[/QUOTE]

I don’t mean to use kickboxing as a bad term. What I’m talking about is when a person trains a traditional martial art - doesn’t matter what it is - they train a strategy and a skill set. But, they don’t trust in that skill set or strategy so when they spar, they do something different. Usually it looks to me like a poor man’s version of TKD or kickboxing without the fundamental skills. This happens early in their career and they may find some initial success when they fight other newbies.

5 years go by and they continue on in that traditional style - but they never develop their traditional fundamental skill set because they don’t trust it, and they don’t use it. They also never progress in their poor man’s TKD / bad kickboxing sparring because they don’t train that properly either.

In the above case - they would’ve been better off if they would’ve just trained San Da or Thai Boxing or even TKD (good TKD guys are very good at sparring) for that 5 years because that’s what they feel comfortable with and they would have made a lot of progress.

Instead, they have 5 years in a system they don’t really believe in and can’t use, and they’re also bad at kickboxing.

Now - IF they would’ve trusted in their style and had a good Sifu who was teaching them the reelz stuff, Yes, they would’ve made progress, and the end result, like you say - looks a little like kickboxing because they use some of the same techniques. But they also would have a whole grab bag of goodies that’s unique to their system that they can play with… and that’s where the fun begins.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1270135]
Instead, they have 5 years in a system they don’t really believe in and can’t use, and they’re also bad at kickboxing.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with what you say completely.

I notice this in so many people.

I think it comes from the way people spar. When someone punches you, you try to avoid it just enough to still be in range for a counter. This is because your mind is thinking in terms of points, how many hits can I get off him, ignoring the reality of danger.

I used to spar like this. But after I have been attacked in reality a few times I realise in reality I do something completely different. I don’t dodge a punch by a few inches, i dodge it by a few feet, and many other people do also. When there is real danger and you could lose an eye, a tooth, a handsome nose or your very life, you don’t think about scoring points on your enemy, you think full on defend or full on attack.

What happens? You are startled, You are prey, You use pure defence, don’t even think of counter attack, they attack relentlessly, then you see their anger wane, there is a moment and you see it in their face, it is like the ball of courage has been passed and it is now yours, your fear spontaneously changes to anger and you attack full on and they are forced back. Instead of being the one for one, jabbing-retreating, countering, weaving that we get in sparring, it is more like it is played in turns. The incentives involved are so different.

Traditional styles, especially those of the longfist are used in this way, they assume you are a defender or an attacker, not a competitor, so if you try to use them under normal sparring conditions, they are not so good and you find sanda much better. I think a lot of people can’t control their ego, they want to land a lot of points in sparring, treat it as if its a game, rather than USE the sparring to practice like they were in danger and test themselves. So they start to rely on Sanda and not the traditional technique.

Either strategy can be good if they commit to it, but they stay in the middle.

There is no easy fix to this.

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1270135]Instead, they have 5 years in a system they don’t really believe in and can’t use, and they’re also bad at kickboxing.[/QUOTE]
I think that’s the teacher’s problem. If in those 5 years, the teacher didn’t detect that issue, he can’t be a good teacher.

In every class of mine, I would ask my students to get a “head lock” on me, From the pressure that they applied on my head, I could tell whether they had trained “pole hanging” at home or not. I have always told my students that if they don’t have faith in “head lock”, they should leave and find themselves another teacher.

Also when they spar/wrestle, I want to make sure that they apply strategies such as “big fist”, “double spears”, “wrist control”, “sticky leg”, …

If you train your students this way, there is no way that your students won’t fight like they train.

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[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1270171]When someone punches you, you try to avoid it just enough to still be in range for a counter. This is because your mind is thinking in terms of points, how many hits can I get off him, ignoring the reality of danger.

I used to spar like this. But after I have been attacked in reality a few times I realise in reality I do something completely different. I don’t dodge a punch by a few inches, i dodge it by a few feet, and many other people do also. When there is real danger and you could lose an eye, a tooth, a handsome nose or your very life, you don’t think about scoring points on your enemy, you think full on defend or full on attack.[/QUOTE]
Most of my guys don’t have this problem. Since the major part of their strategy depend on their “head lock”, they have to keep moving into their opponents close enough to get their head lock. To dodge or move back will be counter-productive. Now the question is how can you move in while your opponent tries to knock your head off without losing an eye, a tooth, nose, or life? This is how the “big fist” strategy come in handy. When your opponent’s arms are in a boxing guard, it’s very difficult to get him into a “head lock” because both of his arms are in the way. When your opponent punches at you, his arm will no longer protect his head, It’s the best time to take his head.

The nice thing about the “big fist” + “head lock” strategies is it will give you courage to move in, move in, and still move in. If you don’t want to get hit on your head, the best solution is to take your opponent’s punching ability away ASAP.

If you have confidence in arm wrapping, when you see a punch coming toward your face, you should be happy because that arm is moving toward you and you don’t have to move toward that arm. If you think that way, a punch or a kick will be a gift to you. You will no longer be afraid a kick or a punch. Instead, when someone punches or kicks you, you will have a big smile on your face.

//youtu.be/1rPcIIRoBWo

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[QUOTE=MightyB;1269984]…To learn to box, you have to find a Rodney King to coach you.[/QUOTE]

Who of this two would you prefer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXPvZzeb5cE

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Good blog post! I would add the caveat that if you focus too much on the fighting too early on that you won’t learn the fundamental mechanics of a solid, punch, kick, throw, etc. I’ve seen a lot of beginners want to get in and spar but they don’t have any skills yet to really execute. It can also go too far they other way where people are drilling, drilling, drilling and never do any sparring. It’s probably works best as a process: You learn a little bit of form/theory and you take it to free sparring to test it out. That didn’t work, adjust. Keep trying until you can apply it or if you can’t make it work–adjust the form/theory.

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[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1270291]Good blog post! I would add the caveat that if you focus too much on the fighting too early on that you won’t learn the fundamental mechanics of a solid, punch, kick, throw, etc. I’ve seen a lot of beginners want to get in and spar but they don’t have any skills yet to really execute. It can also go too far they other way where people are drilling, drilling, drilling and never do any sparring. It’s probably works best as a process: You learn a little bit of form/theory and you take it to free sparring to test it out. That didn’t work, adjust. Keep trying until you can apply it or if you can’t make it work–adjust the form/theory.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about that, in Judo, boxing, MT, Kyokushin, most MA in fact, beginners are sparring right away.
The DEGREE of contact is adjusted accordingly of course.