[QUOTE=ShaolinDan;1269558]Instead of saying “if you just want health, don’t study kung fu” we can say, “yes! Of course, kung fu will make you very healthy! And you can learn to protect yourself too. My gym is a great choice for you.” :)[/QUOTE]
Exactly - and to illustrate that point, there are more non-competitive BJJers than competitive BJJers. Same can be said for just about any combat sport. I’m sure Coach Ross finds that to be true at his gym too.
[QUOTE=tc101;1269566]It gets confusing though when people who do not train to be fighters and never really spar think that because they train Kung fu that they can handle themselves.[/QUOTE]
Would it shock you to know that this same phenomena happens in every kickboxing gym in America? :eek:
Dave’s article is right though - there should always be sparring in kung fu and we have good equipment to make it safe so use it. I personally dislike it when too much class time is used for calisthenics and solo forms. The best thing about having a group of martial artists together in one setting is that there’s a group of martial artists to practice with. That time should be used for drilling and sparring.
Just my two cents on the topic.
The issues to me are twofold:
You can do kung fu for whatever reason you want, as long as you are doing it for THAT reason and are getting OUT OF IT what you NEED for THAT reason.
ie: Doing it for Health and exercise and not fighting, don’t expect to be able to fight with it and don’t think you are a fighter.
Too many people do kung fu for every reason BUT fighting YET still think they can fight.
Second:
Do kung fu for whatever reason you want BUT never forget that the TRADITION of kung fu is fighting and unless you are doing for that, don’t call yourself a traditionalist.
The issue is the continued curious mixture of preventative healthful exercises, spiritual liberation work and traditional observance and history knowledge that gets package with Traditional martial arts. It seems to have gotten to the point were the martial aspect gets buried in those and hence the “It’s for health” position.
Having said that, it is not a huge difficult task to focus on the martial aspects and to put the Qi Gong, Traditional observance, history, preventative medicine, etc etc into another segment instead of tying it to the martial practice. Even though I personally advocate a whole being approach to it and can appreciate how Ch’an serves a workout an how morality and ethics can temper a quick sword so to speak.
Martial purists will always be able to find what they want and those who are interested in the big tapestry should be able to find theirs as well.
I think the “looks like kickboxing” criticism has merit… in that there’s a proven/good, correct way to learn to kick box and if you have no real faith in the techniques, philosophies, and methods of TCMA to try to learn to use it when you spar, then why would you continue to pursue TCMA? I don’t like it when I see people “spar” in TCMA and it looks like bad Tae Kwon Do. They should study good TKD IMO. I really like it though when I see people spar and it looks like good kick boxing / Sanda or TKD, but they’ll throw in a couple of old school combinations or techniques.
Yeah, I think when we say “kickboxing” we’re referring to it with a capital “K” as a proper noun. A style of fighting. Not as a descriptor of fighting itself. Anyone who grew up in the 70s and 80s watching American Kickboxing matches knows why we use it in a negative context when comparing it to Chinese Martial Arts. Not that it isn’t effective, but it doesn’t exhibit the attributes of the particular Kung Fu practices we were learning.
But yes the blog was pretty spot on.
There is really not a kick or punch in kickboxing that doesn’t have a kung fu equivalent. Lack of throws and the related clinch is all the difference.
To not fight like a kickboxer is to throw out a good chunk of our kung fu. If competitors aren’t throwing punches or kicks, they aren’t doing kung fu, at least any style I’ve ever seen. Now, if they don’t have a variety of different jabs and crosses, then they aren’t doing their full kung fu, but that’s nitpicking.
The differences are mostly in body mechanics and clinch work. You’d be hard pressed to find more than a small handful of strikes and throws that don’t have variants in boxing, muay thai, judo, etc. That said, I will say the variation is often important, and not just to be stylistic.
Strikes, throws, kicks, and grabs in kungfu tend to take into account transition to any of the others than in styles that are divided up by range. A judo player will tend to want to keep trying to throw, a boxer will seek to get back to striking, a ground fighter will seek takedowns to the ground. Muay Thai is probably the closest cousin to kung fu in this sense. Kung fu fighters should take the action most suitable to the situation, but if you are expecting not to throw and not to go to the ground, then you tend to do something like kickboxing, and if you enter venues that allow only this, that is the result. If you allow no head strikes in the venue, then you will kick and throw a lot, hand strikes not so much. If you do not allow ground, you may do throws that you wouldn’t if the ground were a possibility and you didn’t want to go there. This is why most previous full contact venues were better viewed as narrow practices just like other resisting exercises, but with more contact. Not realistic, but working some real skills if taken in their proper context. If you hate kickboxing for its narrowness, you’re stuck reviling push hands and sticky hands, being just as narrow if not narrower.
[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1269679]
To not fight like a kickboxer is to throw out a good chunk of our kung fu. If competitors aren’t throwing punches or kicks, they aren’t doing kung fu, at least any style I’ve ever seen. Now, if they don’t have a variety of different jabs and crosses, then they aren’t doing their full kung fu, but that’s nitpicking.
[/QUOTE]
The problem is when they’re not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it’s just bad. In that case I think the person’s better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they’d have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.
Do you feel excited when you see a punch coming toward your face. I feel very excited at that moment. I can’t get that kind of excitement outside of sparring. Lately, I even willing to pay $20 for anybody who are willing to spar/wrestle with me for 15 rounds.
If you don’t train TCMA for “combat”, you will miss that excitement.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1269681]The problem is when they’re not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it’s just bad. In that case I think the person’s better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they’d have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it’s just about training like a kickboxer. Kung fu people of many stripes like to under train their basic kicks and punches and throws in order to work on ‘high level’ stuff. And they don’t use gloves, and used fixed foot positioning to train techs, so no timing or distance skills.
They’re too busy trying to look like wing chun or baqua or whatever, and not training the almost universal stuff all kung fu styles accept as a necessary basis, which give the opportunity for the style specific stuff. No decent lead leg kicks, no wing chun, etc.
From there, I agree with you, they don’t look at ring tactics that kickboxing requires, cause that’s somehow not kung fu, even though it often is. How to deal with southpaw-orthodox issues, how to deal with pre-contact range. Focus on body mechanics but ignoring what the moves are for on the basic strikes. Striking as low level, instead of it being an art form on its own.
They don’t spend the time doing basic unscripted footwork that makes sense. No style works without that.
too busy…
[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1269683]…like to under train their basic kicks and punches and throws…and used fixed foot positioning to train techs, so no timing or distance skills…They’re too busy trying to look like wing chun or baqua or whatever, and not training the almost universal stuff all kung fu styles accept as a necessary basis…they don’t look at ring tactics that kickboxing requires, cause that’s somehow not kung fu, even though it often is. How to deal with southpaw-orthodox issues, how to deal with pre-contact range. Focus on body mechanics but ignoring what the moves are for on the basic strikes. Striking as low level, instead of it being an art form on its own…They don’t spend the time doing basic unscripted footwork that makes sense. No style works without that.[/QUOTE]
Must disagree with you here. When I ran a school, we had a motto, “Fight the way you train.” I allowed my students to go to tournaments, and face strangers, for the distinct purpose of making their training functional. Just before their engagement, I would instruct them in the only fists and footwork patterns they were allowed to use in that engagement. They hated it. They did not look kewl, cool, or kool, and everybody laughed at them. After several years of doing that, I let them loose, to do what they wanted because I knew they would stay in system. The other competitors hated to see them walk through the door. These little bouts are not about “winning”. They are about learning. Gung Fu works if you work it and that is a long and painful process. There is no glory in it. I can appreciate your shortcuts and using unscripted techniques and understand the reason you believe that way. To each his own.
In my observation and experience, in general, the CMA practitioners who end up being the most able to apply characteristic skills from their styles in pressure sparring are those who were already experienced in non-TCMA systems/methods. Those who already have fighting skills coming in, as long as they are open-minded enough to adopt new skills or viewpoints, tend to learn and progress much more rapidly in CMA than most who start CMA from scratch.
[QUOTE=SKM;1269687]Must disagree with you here. When I ran a school, we had a motto, “Fight the way you train.” I allowed my students to go to tournaments, and face strangers, for the distinct purpose of making their training functional. Just before their engagement, I would instruct them in the only fists and footwork patterns they were allowed to use in that engagement. They hated it. They did not look kewl, cool, or kool, and everybody laughed at them. After several years of doing that, I let them loose, to do what they wanted because I knew they would stay in system. The other competitors hated to see them walk through the door. These little bouts are not about “winning”. They are about learning. Gung Fu works if you work it and that is a long and painful process. There is no glory in it. I can appreciate your shortcuts and using unscripted techniques and understand the reason you believe that way. To each his own.[/QUOTE]
I think we are talking about the same thing. I generalized to “many kung fu people”, but was not suggesting all in any way.
When I say “unscripted”, don’t take it too far. This tied in to my statement about ”working basic footwork in a way that makes sense". So it is not just randomly assembled footwork, and results in a fair amount of knowing standard maneuvers that can be used to do a great many things.
So the teacher should have drills that relate to specific things.
Same with techniques themselves, you trained them in the toolbox that needed to be the basis.
The unscripted aspect in drills, likewise, is not the same as sparring, but unscripted in the sense that the aggressor might have one or two specific attacks they are to use, but can maneuver around, forcing the practitioner to learn to adjust timing and distance. These are not shortcuts, just the next level that fixed distance does not allow for. Teaches the student when to apply the technique they are working and when not to.
I’m sure you’ve seen more than enough kung fu stylists maneuvering in front of their opponents from footwork that implies a throw and serves no purpose in the way they’re using it except to seem to show off in a way that a good opponent, kung fu or otherwise, could capitalize on.
thank you for the clarification
Thank you for taking the time to expand on your previous post, Faux Newbie. I agree with everything you are saying and will not take it too far. 
Japanese martial arts seem to have a very balanced, yet logical, way of organizing their practice.
In both Judo and Kendo, you start your learning with practical, modern approaches that develop timing, distance, and technique, and you can practice against a resisting partner. More traditional and formal methods of training, paired kata, are introduced to supplement the training, not become the focus. If you happen to really like paired kata, there is plenty to explore, as you can join a koryu (ancient martial art) group. In fact, most koryu in Japan typically seek potential members who already have a black belt in a more modern art.
I’m not particularly tied to any one tradition, but if I were to envision a modern gongfu school, I would include a complete sanda program, a big spear sparring program (with associated basic skills), a collection of line drills (these are great for coordination), and maybe even a simple qigong routine to cap it off. This would be an initial 3-4 years program, after which the student would be well-equipped to make sense of more traditional material. He/She could then learn taolu, qigong, other weapons as they desire.
[QUOTE=pazman;1269901]Japanese martial arts seem to have a very balanced, yet logical, way of organizing their practice.
In both Judo and Kendo, you start your learning with practical, modern approaches that develop timing, distance, and technique, and you can practice against a resisting partner. More traditional and formal methods of training, paired kata, are introduced to supplement the training, not become the focus. If you happen to really like paired kata, there is plenty to explore, as you can join a koryu (ancient martial art) group. In fact, most koryu in Japan typically seek potential members who already have a black belt in a more modern art.
I’m not particularly tied to any one tradition, but if I were to envision a modern gongfu school, I would include a complete sanda program, a big spear sparring program (with associated basic skills), a collection of line drills (these are great for coordination), and maybe even a simple qigong routine to cap it off. This would be an initial 3-4 years program, after which the student would be well-equipped to make sense of more traditional material. He/She could then learn taolu, qigong, other weapons as they desire.[/QUOTE]
Not ALL JMA are like that.
Judo is and hard contact Karate systems are.
The Koryu systems teach pre-arranged kata, either paired or solo. The difference is that ( and this is not the case in all systems) the pre-arranged moves come in fast and hard, anyone that has done an old school style knows that one mistake and you pay for it, bigtime.
No one expects people to run before they walk or walk before they crawl BUT what is expected is running and jumping at a certain time.
We go from controlled sparring to free sparring.
We go from safe to less safe.
We must or there is no progress in terms of fighting.
Ive been working on developing my material to offer such things as a San Da program along with teaching Foundational Skills. Teach people how to Strike, Kick, Throw and Grapple.
all for use, nothing for show.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1269681]The problem is when they’re not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it’s just bad. In that case I think the person’s better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they’d have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.[/QUOTE]
You used to train your kicks separately. You always repeated
One day you combine front kick, roundhouse kick, and side kick as a sequence combo (it doesn’t exist in any of your traditional forms that you have learned). Another day when you spar with your opponent, your front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick combo just came up without thinking. You have found out that to use your front kick to set up your roundhouse kick, or to use your roundhouse kick to set up your side kick works very well. You start to use this kicking combo in sparring more and more after that.
Will you say that you try to “imitate” kickboxing?
I’m a official Sanda coach in Changchun Normal University but all I know is TCMA and I know nothing about kickboxing.
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=zh-CHS&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fold.cncnc.org%2F
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269902]Not ALL JMA are like that.
Judo is and hard contact Karate systems are.
The Koryu systems teach pre-arranged kata, either paired or solo. The difference is that ( and this is not the case in all systems) the pre-arranged moves come in fast and hard, anyone that has done an old school style knows that one mistake and you pay for it, bigtime.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I should have said “modern JMA”. In any case, I never felt friction in JMA between doing the old-school stuff and modern stuff. People who don’t practice Judo claim that all the dangerous techniques were removed from jiujitsu. The style of Aikido I practiced in Japan is considered a “sport style” but the syllabus contains things that are verifiably more “traditional” than many other Aikido schools. If you were both a volunteer Kendo instructor and also part of a traditional ryuha, nothing would seem out of place.
I don’t really get this feeling in the CMA community. What CMA schools openly embraces both modern and traditional practices and arranges them in a logical and cohesive way? Are there enough to start a trend?