I’d be interested in seeing a list of 36 throwing principles too.
thanks
"Hey you guys pitch a ***** when no one responds to your article, and then I ask a question about the throwing methods and none of you guys pipe up!? Anymore info on this?
Jake "
There was nothing about people not responding to the article. The complaint was clearly that people DID repsond, but it was not on topic.
Those throws together with the 72 Qin Na mentioned are physically present in the 7 Star System. If you have any contacts from 7 Star they can teach you, I’m sure. Or you can go to Shanghai to learn them.
**** Redfish, I was really hoping this was a new leaf for you guys, but once again you prove everyone right.
I know much more than just 36 throws and 72 chin na (my teacher is a Shuai Chiao and Chin Na expert), so I really do not think it is pertinent for me to travel to Shanghai.
I was really hoping you guys would open up and share and elaborate more on this.
Jake
I think it’s as simple as this jake… The information that was posted on that site and in forums was handed down from other people. Whether complete, incomplete, right, wrong, informative etc. It’s easy for someone to copy something down and post it on a site, hell I’ve done it but I also stated that this is just a list I was given but really don’t know all of the stuff on it. So it seems that even when good information is posted by this group it is stated that “this is from the LGY lineage of how things should be”. But really no personal addition to the subject at hand. The only personal insight we get is remarks about others who have spoken out about the way this group handles themselves in public forums.
Could this be a case of this group just copying something down and not really knowing the details involved?
ok, so when the word ‘principle’ is being used in that context it really means ‘technique’ ?
redfish, can you say yes or no to that? thanks.
OSO
It means physical actions the same way as the “8 stances” does.
just to clarify…The article is stating that there are 36 specific throws in the 7* Mantis of LGY?
I would love to see a specific listing or even just a list of what is considered ‘basic’ throws versus more advanced technique.
I think Judo runs their throws in groups of 8…yep, just checked:
It would be cool to see that sort of organization in a mantis system.
thanks.
I dont think you will find anything as systemized as the Judo. The Japanese and Okinawans seem to be better organized.
I did not learn the throws in groups of eight. I learned them as Hip, arm, leg and sacrifice.
Thanks for the site. It has great info. I may have to consider breaking it down this way
I was able to download that webpage the 1st time this post appeared. But since then I can not download it. It just downloads halfway and gets stuck at something like 111 bytes a second which means it just sn’t downloading.
Anyone else have this problem?
I just tried it and it worked for me again.
2.5 Eighteen Family Systems (Shi Ba Jia Fa)
According to the legend, Wang Lang’s final experience involved a formal exchange with eighteen kung fu masters. The story is documented in a poem from the “Shaolin Authentics” entitled the “Eighteen Families Sonet” supposedly written in the 1700’s. While the document does lend credibility to the legend, admittedly it is still difficult to verify and does not provide conclusive evidence one way or the other. Regardless, the legend goes that Abbot Fu Ju of the Shaolin Monastery, invited eighteen highly respected and skilled martial arts masters to exchange their ideas and knowledge on the strategies, concepts, and techniques of the fighting arts - Wang Lang included. After completing their exchange Wang Lang integrated a number boxing strategies and techniques from the other masters rounding out his own Praying Mantis fighting system.
I have heard this account or myth before and I must say, I find it to be a terrible and illogical interpretation of the 18 Family sonnet. I understand that the site does not claim this to be fact and warns readers to read the legends with a grain of salt, but we do not explain the 18 Family origins this way.
For anyone who has studied Chinese literature at all or simply read the Chinese epic novel “Outlaws of the Marsh” a.k.a. “The Water Margin” a.k.a. “All Men are Brothers”, one would immediately recognize several of the names in the 18 Family sonnet to be characters from this novel. This novel is set during the Song dynasty. How then could they be present with Wong Long at Shaolin Temple to have a symposium on their respective styles?
I am a strong believer that the 18 Family Sonnet is not a historical record of 18 masters coming together to help create the Praying Mantis style. I believe the author was commemorating certain famous and possibly popular Chinese martial arts figures and attributed certain techniques to them. Some entries are very specific like the “Ou, lou, cai of Liu Xing”. Perhaps this master was famous for this technique. But it would be like someone creating a new style today and saying it combines the trapping hands of Yip Man, the shadowless kick of Wong Fei Hung, Law Gwong Yuk’s Iron Palm, the cloud hands of Yang Cheng Fu, the intercepting methods of Bruce Lee, etc.
The sonnet is a romantic way for us to think of the Praying Mantis Style. Whether it was to lend more credibility to the style when it was being introduced or to emphasize particular techniques of the style, I don’t believe the story is written in the Shaolin Authentics as it is presented above. Certainly, Abbot Fu Ju is not included in any version of the sonnet I have seen so the “story” is not really documented in the sonnet. The sonnet only lists the 18 families and does not say how this list of martial artists are put together nor does it say they physically got together for an exchange. Are there documented sources or has anyone seen the Shaolin Authentics to verify that such a story that Abbot Fu Ju invites these masters to Shaolin Temple is actually how it is written. I have not seen in any of WHF’s writings where he describes the 18 Family sonnet with this story.
Just my humble opinion. Perhaps someone has another interpretation of the 18 Family sonnet? I know this is not a major topic for discussion but for some reason, this explanation of the 18 Families has also struck a chord in me.
Vance Young
YM
my view
My personal take on the subject follows yours with the addidtion of:
I also believe that the principles of the listed techniques entertwine throughout the system.
Hi Mantid1,
That sukka just won’t download for me!
But not to worry, becasue Vance posted what I wanted to comment on.
ABBOTT FUJU
Fuju is listed in modern Shaolin history as the abbot at Shaolin around 961 A.D.
Supposedly he invited 18 masters to Shaolin to teach MA. The so called Shaolin authentics is a record of what was taught and who taught it.
So according to this, Wang Lang’s Mantis is not a combination of 18 styles, but one of the styles only.
And it is apparent that “style” is more in the line of some principles of fighting as opposed to what we, in this era, call a style.
It has been reported that the masters were invited to Shaolin(by a respected fellow at shaolin section) for the purpose of teaching monks MA so that they could take back some of the Bhuddist temples that had been over run by brigands, or taoists maybe.
I don’t know of any solid proof of anything for this story as of yet, though it may exist and just needs to be gathered together. This is part of the research I am doing at this time.
COMPARING 18
The Shaolin version of 18 families is not the same as the Mantis version but close enough.
In the Shaolin version Wang Lang is #17 and he overcomes the enemy, while in the Mantis version he overcomes all.
Notice the dif?
TRUE??
The story may actually be true as unlikely as it seems.
If true it happens just before the start of the Song dynasty.
The 2 figures in 18 family are in Water Margin novel this is true, but there is some arguement that the 1st 36 figures(or less) in that book are actual people.
And there is a lot to say about the star of the book, Sung Jiang, who had a lot written on his real world exploits.
FALSE??
On the other hand, it is more likely(sniff-sniff-wipes tears) that it is a recent addition. And there is a lot of evidence for that.
I suspect, and am also looking for proof, that 18 families is from a MA novel of some ancient time.
It is entirely possible that this is so.
NOVEL OF ZHAO
I have recently found a novel, of Zhao Kuangying as heroic fighter before he became emperor of the Song. This is somewhat well known in Chinese, but I don’t think it has been translated into English.
The Historian Ma Mingda went to some length to argue the POSSIBILITY that Taizu Chuen and the history of longfist itself is entirely based on this MA novel.
This can’t be discounted in researching the history of these MA styles that they all really started from ancient comic books.
ASSIGNMENT
Before more solid opinions can be formed it is important to continue with research.
-
read all pre republic MA novels and see if any of the 18 family members are there.
-
Is there an imperial edict from the emperor granting rights to Shaolin monks to re acquire their lands just before the Song dynasty?
-
Hantong is written about in history of the Song-official version. Lets get the exact quotes out.
-
Write the exact historical evidence for Lin Chong and Yen Ching to see the probability of them having really existed and when.
-
etc…
Mr Brazier
If I understand you correctly Mantis may not have been develped by these 18 diffferent styles.
If ithis is true I support your theory on fighting theories rather than styles.
Is there any proof of Wang Langs existence? If we cant prove with some certainty that he existed all the rest of the rearch may be a waste of time.
It seems that with all of the chinese legends and the taoist imortals that wang may fall in the same catagory.
It does not make mantis less effective though.
I myself believed in the Easter Bunny up until a year ago
Thanks
:eek: What are you saying there’s no Easter Bunny!?!?!?
That is some very interesting information. Mr. Brazier I can not wait to read your book. 
fm
It is a great site. I use it to go back and refresh my memory on the throws I’ve learned.
is there an interlinear version of these pieces of literature?
or are they really good pieces for learning mandarin?
tai tzu
from what i’ve been able to find from this 18familes styles it looks more like a recipe for the original mantis style:
“tai tzu at it’s base” is the style it’s derived from;
tong bei is it’s governing principle (so…white ape tong bei);
sticking, siezing, grasping, adhering, blocking sounds like Shuai Jiao;
leaking, sealing, falling, rolling sounds like cotton fist fantzi and chuo Jiao fan tzi;
duck like swing kicks seem like zhao bao;
does anyone with an informed opinion have a response?
I have heard it referred to as such…
Chang Chuan is the Father, and TOng Bei is the mother of Mantis boxing. A lot of truth to this I believe.
Jake 