4 THOSE upset with Mike and Matt-XMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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this is what Mike had to say about the problem with TMA :smiley:

http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/xma/bios/questions.html

Q: With more and more emphasis being placed on gymnastics, dance and high-flying moves which would NEVER work “on the street” has the introduction of “Sport Karate” hurt traditional martial arts?
— Jim M.

A: Absolutely! When martial artists began competing in tournaments, the art became sport and the purpose for which the training was based began to change. Although the look and feel of the martial arts in tournament competition has changed over the years, what I believe has hurt the martial arts is not the transition to the Xtreme or the evolution of the “Sport” aspect, but more so the lack of education in the general public. Up until now, the martial arts have been revered as either mystical, unexplained art forms or deadly fighting arts. Enough with the secrets of this style and that master. Part of the history and future of the martial arts is the passing of knowledge down to the next generation, which means all martial artist must become teachers at some point.

With a nationwide average of 20 percent drop out rate in martial arts students in their first month, we don’t even begin to have a chance to impact these people’s lives in a positive manner. If we can continue to inspire and motivate students with XMA, tournaments, “flash” and Hong Kong style films, we have a better chance at keeping students long term. All instructors know that we need students to stay long term in order to really begin to understand and appreciate the history and roots of every style and truly embrace martial arts into their lives. Forget about the moves, the flips, and the impracticality of what you see on TV. Master Fumio Demura (a master in ****o-ryu karate and Kubodo from Japan) said that he envied students like Matt and Craig. He realized they were so inspired by XMA that they train 10 times harder than his own traditional students. Athletes lift weights, run, and do plyometrics as forms of cross training. View XMA as a method off cross training to supplement and enhance any traditional base style — definitely not to detract or replace it!

Q: How do you feel about instructors who have very little full contact training? Do you think just knowing technique alone will carry you through a real self-defense situation, or do you need full-contact sparring? Thanks — John U.

A: As a traditional Okinawan Shorei-Ryu stylist, I am a firm believer in practical self-defense application of technique or what we call “Bunkai”. Does one have to engage in regular full contact training? Although I have never done full contact sparring, we train self-defense techniques in our style close to full contact but in a controlled setting. I believe in today’s world, a well rounded instructor would be well versed in different types of sparring applications, street self-defense, ground fighting, etc., to prepare for a wide range of street situations.

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apparently, his left hand is unaware of what his right hand is doing.

Here’s my opinion.

If people drop out of traditional martial arts for whatever reason, let them. It’s not for them and I don’t think it is wise of the traditional martial arts to coddle anyone western paradigm or demograph or whatever.

Take them for what they are and don’t mess up the publics perceptions anymore than they already are.

People need to know that to excel in true martial arts that it is hard, it takes work and there are numerous failures to be met before even small successes start occuring.

That is the meaning and the Nature of “Kungfu”.

Acrobatics is acrobatics, sell it as such. Don’t try pawning off some pseudo bits and pieces as true martial arts because your afraid you won’t get a bigt audience.

It is no ones place to “want” to change anyone anyway. If people want to change and want to use martial art as a vehicle for that change then that’s fine.

It is no ones right or duty to change anything but themselves and in fact it is a futile effort to set out with changing others in mind.

We present only ourselves and only what we have, we offer it freely and it is there to be accepted or rejected.

In all honesty, I tried to give this show a second look and in my eyes, it fell flat again. These guys have some potential as athletes, but really shouldn’t be marketing in such a manner. Keep it real kids.

cheers

3

kung lek - exactly, i especially agree with the dropping out part. excellent post.

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If we can continue to inspire and motivate students with XMA, tournaments, “flash” and Hong Kong style films, we have a better chance at keeping students long term. All instructors know that we need students to stay long term in order to really begin to understand and appreciate the history and roots of every style and truly embrace martial arts into their lives.

Yeah so then when people sign up for TMA’s and realize that there won’t be any butterfly kicks they can be disappointed and quit.

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People need to know that to excel in true martial arts that it is hard, it takes work and there are numerous failures to be met before even small successes start occuring.

Once again, Kung Lek reminds us of his prejudices and his “holier than thou” approach.

People who desire to succeed in ANY endeavor quickly discover that it is hard, it takes work, and there are numerous failure to be met before even small successes start occuring–including XMA.

You think doing twisting pike position somersaults/layouts is easy?

Mike is 100% right about why that fellow envied them. They train like they mean it–to be the best. And that takes the kind of dedication most people on this board don’t have a ****ing clue about.

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But here’s a question - does Mike and his XMA colleagues tell the newly anointed white belts that what they see is more flash than fighting substance? If he makes it clear, and he advertises it clearly, then OK, he get’s some brownie points for at least getting people interested in MA in an oblique kinda way. But if he does not, and the people who train in sport karate are not educated themselves in the fact that what they are doing is more art than martial, then he is doing a disservice.

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and the people who train in sport karate are not educated themselves in the fact that what they are doing is more art than martial,
Which is evident by the discussions in that show about the practicality of point sparring. I don’t care how hard they work to “get the yell out,” that show was a joke.

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No argument about more art than martial.

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View XMA as a method off cross training to supplement and enhance any traditional base style — definitely not to detract or replace it!

I happen to agree with in a large part this statement… so long as you still get your “traditional,” being a better athlete (which this training in wushu or xma will do) usually helps your fighting…

So long as you don’t aquire bad habits.

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Originally posted by MasterKiller
Which is evident by the discussions in that show about the practicality of point sparring. I don’t care how hard they work to “get the yell out,” that show was a joke.

ya dmn right it was…that kid was a herb…i wanna see him try to do thet fckin roundhouse in the air on someone tryin to stab him with a godmn dagger…then well see how loud he screams…but i give him props, hes a cut little Bstard…

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I am just curious

Did anyone see the part where they performed a supposedly straight arm bar on the ground? The guy (Chat?) was doing it with the arm resting on top of his already figure foured legs. Now I am no expert in ground grappling arts. I am pretty sure that technique is in no way technically sound. So I wonder how would the grapplers feel if you see your stuff applied in such a “style” in a watered down manner (I might be mistaken)? I am curious as to how everyone especially Merry Prankster, since you are playing the devils advocate, feel about it? I was irritated by that applications frankly and I think it is insulting and not accurate to present such technique in ground grappling. This is okay for the sports crowd? This would really mean you guys have a hugh heart. If you are irritated just as I do then I think you would understand the feeling that others are upset about these so called XMA athletes.

I am not looking for a debate. I am just looking for clarifications on where everybody stand.

Regards

Mantis108

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I’m not playing devil’s advocate. I’m stating a simple fact known to anybody who’s ever worked to be the best at anything:

It’s really really really really hard work. Whether you’re bowling or drawing or cooking, you have to constantly work to refine, perfect and practice. It’s that simple. I take offense to the way KL stated his opinion because it looks right down the nose at guys like Matt and Mike who BUST THEIR ASSES in a way that most people here can’t even begin to comprehend in order to be at the top. Ironically, they’ve learned the purported self-improvement lessons of MA to the hilt.

I’m not arguing its martial merits or even if the approach is correct. I just get tired of hearing how dedicated and difficult “Traditional” martial arts practice is, as though Matt and Mike aren’t training their asses off or are doing something less. I’m reminded of Lance Armstrong’s quotation regarding accusations about steroid use:

“This is my body. And I can do whatever I want to it. I can push it. Study it. Tweak it. Listen to it. Everybody wants to know what I’m on. What am I on? I’m on my bike busting my ass six hours a day. What are you on?”

FWIW, I take Matt and Mike over 99% of martial artists in a fight based on attributes and mindset alone.

All that said, I thought the armbar was pretty lame :smiley: It would work as a speed break but I have VERY little faith in that type of maneuver.

Watered down grappling and how do I feel about it? It’s called pro-wrestling and it’s fun as hell to watch. Oh yeah–those guys bust their asses too. Yeah, a lot of em are on vitamin S, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are day in and day out trying to be the very very best in a very demanding field. I could give a rat’s ass about “watered down grappling.” It’s not insulting in the least. People who find it insulting take themselves way too seriously.

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Once again, Kung Lek reminds us of his prejudices and his “holier than thou” approach.

Once again merry takes a shot at me in his pusillanimous way for no reason other than to call me down. Up yours merry :smiley:

You telling me that if someone was selling patty cakes and calling it jujitsu you wouldn’t have an issue with that?

I never said what they did didn’t take any skill, I said it ain’t martial arts and shouldn’t be doled out as such. It is a combination of screaming and break dancing dude, but i guess you are not familiar enough with kungfu to recognize that.

cheers

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From a martial standpoint - its complete and utter bullshit. From a training standpoint, yes they do put more hours in than a good majority.

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Hardly pusillanimous. Perhaps if I backed down afterwards explaining that wasn’t really what I meant you’d have some ground to say that. As it is, I stick to my guns. Ask anybody who knows me and they’ll tell you I’d be more than willing to say it to your face.

I take issue with one thing only: Your repeated attempts to insinuate that people who aren’t doing “Traditional” MA’s as people not possessing the same sort of work ethic and mental toughness.

We’ve got one mod who’s MIA and you with a chip on your shoulder. Lovely.

Would I be insulted if somebody were teaching patty cakes and calling it jiujitsu? Nah. I’d probably have a good laugh. Why the **** should I care?

I can afford to do that since I’m in an art with a strong competitive base that showcases perpetually who’s the real deal. It’s one of the upshots of an open art that demystifies things. I don’t have to worry about “watered down” practicioners taking over my little world and fret as to the state of things.

I never said what they did didn’t take any skill

No, what you implied (as usual) was that they didn’t have what it takes to study a real martial art–as if them doing their twisting pike somersaults just magically happened rather than being the result of incremental improvement and lots of sweat, toil, blood and failure. As though their incredible athleticism is the result of just some natural ability and not the culmination of years of more effort than 99% of the population will ever put forth.

It is a combination of screaming and break dancing dude

You ever met a serious dancer? Do you have any idea how much effort and work it takes? It takes as much or more dedication as learning any TMA.

I said it ain’t martial arts and shouldn’t be doled out as such.

It’s not especially martial, but I think the link is obvious. Once again, I take Matt and Mike over 99% of martial artists based on attributes and mindset alone. The ones I don’t take over them are the ones who actually fight.

i guess you are not familiar enough with kungfu to recognize that.

No, but I’m familiar enough with hard work, dedication and gutting it out to admire it when I see it, rather than complain ‘it’s not martial arts.’ They never claimed they’d make you ready for a fight–which I would take issue with and is a seperate thing altogether.

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mp …
I take offense to the way KL stated his opinion because it looks right down the nose at guys like Matt and Mike who BUST THEIR ASSES in a way that most people here can’t even begin to comprehend

i see where you are coming from, but i really don’t think he meant it like that.

kl …
People need to know that to excel in true martial arts that it is hard, it takes work and there are numerous failures to be met before even small successes start occuring.

i think that statement could have been better worded, but i don’t think he was saying that on the flip side xma takes no work what so ever.

they are different kinds of hard work. you have your athletes, your fighters, and your athletic fighters. each takes an unreal amount of work to be at the top, but the training is obviously unique to each goal. i think kl was mainly ranting about people confusing, or twisting, the goals. i also think most of us agree that the twisting of athletics into fighting is some bull**** that does happen and needs to stop.

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Whatever merry, why don’t you just go join an xma outfit and see where it gets you on your matt then?

yeesh, you are such a sophist and would do just about anything here to twist up one thing into another.

Am I implying? No. You are making presupposition and speculating on meaning where you don’t need to. I make it quite clear in what I think of the xma and it’s show and that it is NOT what it portrays itself as and although it is an art form and it borrows heavily from martial arts in itrs presentation, it is just empty regardless of the flips and hollers.

I imply nothing.
Those guys would get smash in a for real fight and would get choked out fast in a ring match. THey’ve never had any real experience and they are trying to push power ranghers movie fu as teh real deal.

THis is BAD for the true traditional martial arts. I would say that this is more indicative of your dislike for real traditional martial arts and that uou are a-ok with any tripe like this that makes them even more convulted , polluted and whatever else it takes to make only your sports seem like the “real” deal.

Anyway, I can clearly see that it takes work to do flips. THe rest is crap.

cheers

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Whatever merry, why don’t you just go join an xma outfit and see where it gets you on your matt then?

Because I don’t train for XMA. But if I did, that’s where I’d go. It won’t get me anywhere on the mat any more than BJJ would get me anywhere in a forms comp.

Am I implying? No.

Utter bull****. Your holier than thou attitude about “true traditional martial arts” gives the lie to that statement.

Anyway, I can clearly see that it takes work to do flips.

How dismissive can you be of their work ethic?

THis is BAD for the true traditional martial arts.

There you are again with your “true traditional martial arts.” Pro-wrestling hasn’t done one bad thing to amateur wrestling. It’s alive and kicking, no thanks to Title IX…Why is it so bad for the “TRUE traditional martial arts?”

I would say that this is more indicative of your dislike for real traditional martial arts

Once again, the “real” traditional martial arts card. And you don’t have an agenda? Please. I’ll be certain to mention this conversation to my traditional MA friends in NY so we can all have a good laugh. Good is good, period. I personally can’t wait to go to Chicago and hang w/WD and co. I hear word of a NAGA tournament in May!!!

uou are a-ok with any tripe like this that makes them even more convulted , polluted and whatever else it takes to make only your sports seem like the “real” deal.

Tripe like this? Ah, like rap isn’t “real” music. Gotcha.

No agenda…no implied meanings. :rolleyes:

What an ass. Everything you say is tainted by your prejudice on this subject. You impugn–absolutely demean–their incredibly hard work to be the best at what they do. The fact you can’t recognize their discipline, drive and focus tells me only that what they are doing, they are doing with more dedication and effort than any you’ve ever even thought about putting forth.

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I think part of the problem with the XMA documentary is that even the most ludicrous things said in it (ex> blood on the emei piercer makes it go in easier…) are just slightly more flamboyant than a lot of the stuff that is commonly taught in a lot of “traditional” martial arts schools.

It’s **** embarrassing to see stuff being layed out so unequivocally that many of us probably bought hook, line, and sinker from one of our early MA teachers.

Still, I for one thought the program was complete rubbish. I understand those defending XMA as a difficult sport/art. However, regardless of the title, the program was not just a documentary about XMA as a sport. The program billed itself as research into the power of strikes in the martial arts, and the material covered clearly went well beyond just describing or documenting a new sport. Lots of ridiculous statements were made about fighting and power, etc… and our original criticisms all dealt with these, and so remain valid criticisms of the program.

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Lots of ridiculous statements were made about fighting and power, etc… and our original criticisms all dealt with these, and so remain valid criticisms of the program.

No argument here.