3 Points About TWC

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Originally posted by anerlich
Guess I’ll wade in:
Sifu David Crook, who has been teaching KF in Canberra, AUS since 1969, trained with W Cheung while the latter lived in Canberra. Whoever cast doubt earlier on Cheung’s academic qualifications knows sweet FA, he definitely attained a degree in AUS and also worked in the Public Service as well as teaching KF. If you’re going to question YM’s deep teaching to the teenage W Cheung, you need to do the same with Bruce Lee also.

no doubt william cheung went to university, none at all. i was only wondering how he gained entrance into an australian university when he dropped out of school at age 14 to live with yip man and learn wing chun. age 14 standard of high school education would not get you entry into a university.

YM’s deep teaching to Bruce Lee? Bruce Lee did not learn the whole system. Recently i saw a tv interview with william cheung. he said in that interview that he himself taught bruce lee everything. someone in hollywood is making a movie about it.

wong shun leung started training with yip man in 1952.
william cheung says he started training with yip man in 1951.
how can that be ???

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Because William Cheung started AFTER Wong Shun Leung and Wong started in 1953.

William started in 1954 along with Lo Man Kam, Victor Kan, Lee Kam Sing and others who can validate this. He started learning in Restaurant workers union HQ AFTER Leung Sheung won re-election, which was in 1954.

Both Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung were influential in teaching Bruce Lee along with of course, Yip Man.

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on william cheung’s website it says he began training in 1951 at the age of 10. it’s there for all to see.
somewhere else i read that he quit school to become a live in student of yip man in 1954. i will try to find it again. that’s why i was wondering how he managed to get into uni without a full high school education.

so, is the information on william cheung’s website untrue?

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i]Originally posted by sel [/i]
[B]

no doubt william cheung went to university, none at all. i was only wondering how he gained entrance into an australian university when he dropped out of school at age 14 to live with yip man and learn wing chun. age 14 standard of high school education would not get you entry into a university.[/B]

I don’t know anything about W. Cheung’s education, but I know that someone who leaves high school early in Australia can do bridging courses that will lead them into a University degree.

YM’s deep teaching to Bruce Lee? Bruce Lee did not learn the whole system. Recently i saw a tv interview with william cheung. he said in that interview that he himself taught bruce lee everything. someone in hollywood is making a movie about it.

Perhaps W. Cheung’s memory is faulty!! Wong Shun Leung definitely also taught Bruce Lee.

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—Hey Victor. Nice how you avoid answering questions put to you.

Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu, with it’s central line concepts and footwork that does not appear in any other non-William Cheung
Yip Man lineage…

—Maybe so. Maybe no. But I’ll say again, I think you need to define for us exactly what “modified” WCK looks like.

Is here to stay. It was true in the 80’s, the 90’s…it’s true now… and will always be true.

—No doubt TWC is here to stay. No one has questioned that. As I said before, I think it is a valid and effective method. It is just the “history” behind it that is in question.

Sorry if that doesn’t fit in with your plans.

—Plans? I don’t have any plans. I will say again what I said before. Those original articles years ago were an insult to everyone in the YMWCK family and to continue to repeat the same story some 20 yrs later is still an insult. What those articles defined as “modified” WCK in their attempt to show how superior TWC is just does not appear in reality. The info was inaccurate then, and it is still inaccurate. That is the only reason I have responded in this whole discussion.

It is too complicated for William Cheung to have made it up…
again I’ll repeat the words of Yip Chun…

…“Grandmaster Yip Man says there is some theory that seems to be untouchable in Wing Chun and when he was in his boyhood he was not able to catch the idea…”

—If Yip Man was only a pre-teen when he started learning WCK, then this is not too hard to believe. Can you teach all the theories and concepts of WCK thoroughly to someone that is eleven or twelve years old?

A huge clue that backs up William Cheung’s claim that Chan Wah Shun didn’t get the central line theory with its footwork…because Yip Chun couldn’t possibly have meant the horizontal and vertical centerlines…these ideas are just TOO basic.

—But again…could it be that Yip Man’s lack of knowledge was not due to a lack of teaching on Chan Wah Shun’s part, but rather a lack of comprehension on Yip Man’s part? After all, he was just a kid. Here I am assuming that the Leung Bik story is true for the sake of discussion. My point is only that the logical conclusion is not necessarily that Chan Wah Shun didn’t know what he was doing. After all, he was quite famous for his WCK abilities and won many challenge matches. His understanding of WCK couldn’t have been that bad. :slight_smile:

“As for the theory of Wing Chun, Master Chan Wah Shun did not know much about it…when he studied Wing Chun with Leung Bik, Yip Man was much older and Leung Bik was quite experienced and with better understanding of Wing Chun. So Grandmaster Yip Man received the real knowledge of Wing Chun when he was an adult…”

Incredibly suggestive because Yip Chun supports William Cheung’s claim that Yip Man learned the REAL (knowledge of) Wing Chun (with better understanding) from Leung Bik.

—And I’ll ask you once again…the implication of Yip Chun retelling this story is that Yip Man also passed on this REAL knowledge of WCK to him. Does William Cheung support this idea? Nothing in Yip Chun’s story mentions Yip Man learning an entirely different version of WCK.

I’m beginning to suspect that you folks who talk about pidgeoned-toed stances and what-have-you have never really seen the footwork that I’m referring to in this thread…

—And I’m beginning to think you have been completely ignoring any points made that contradict and bring into question the old TWC rhetoric. I’m also beginning to think that this whole discussion has been rather pointless because of this.

You need to look deeper into TWC footwork in order to be taken seriously

—And you need to listen to what other people have to say and come up with some better evidence to support your claims if you want to be taken seriously.

Keith

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Anerlich:

I don’t recall William Cheung ever saying that Yip Man said to him …

“Son…you’re going to be the new Grandmaster after I die”…I think William Cheung claimed that title as his right because of the fact that Yip Man did not teach TWC to anyone else. I agree with him.

As regards this guy who managed to counter William Cheung’s sidekick…never heard about that…even if true…didn’t Dan Lee once hit Bruce lee with a very heavy boxing punch…what did it prove about Bruce Lee…anything of significance?

These people are not gods…their great…but not gods.

Rene: later on in the day I will post again about all the points you raised in your first post on this thread…now that I think the point is made that you’re just as human as the rest of us around here.

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Question for Victor!

Hello all,

This conversation is heading down the nonsense road.

I want to just ask one question and bring up this point that seems to be avoided (even tho others have spotted it)!

Victor,

Answer this but take a deap breath before you do!

Do you really believe that Wong Wah Bo would have taught Leung Jan any differently that he taught Fok Bo Chuen? If so, why?

Now, for the last time! The information you continue to screem about on this thread is nothing more than stories with no back up logic or evidence! You are just repeating stories! The one question above is more evidence than you have discussed which makes your view on the lesser likely side IMO.

Again: If Wong Wah Bo taught both Leung Jan and Fok Bo Chuen and both lineages are almost identical then that is all the evidence anyone needs to show the Leung Bik (secret art) is not logical. Plus! Keep in mind that Leung Bak Chung was his nephew and he was one of the Koo Lo pupils who’s WC is not like TWC. Oh yeah, keep in mind that Yik Kam’s WC is also very very similar to Leung Jan’s teaching in Koo Lo. So, just this shows what is more likely since if that was also what you call modified it would mean whomever taught Yik Kam would have shown him the wrong way also?

I know you are a devoted TWC practitioner, and teacher, but you need to keep an open mind and maybe, just maybe, TWC is something that came from somebody besides Leung Jan.

Regards,

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fa_jing,

However, the regular Yip Man style, is the same.

Now consider this, not only does the TWC story claim the “modified” system was made up, it claims it was made up in the matter of mere moments, when Leung Jan saw Chan Wah-Shun spying on them. In that instant, he came up with a “modified” version and began showing it to his sons, and they didn’t flinch, and managed to hide every ounce of previous training, every combat reflex they’d develop, and never again show any of the “traditional” system while Chan Wah-Shun was around. And Chan never noticed that the WCK they were practicing before looked different than what they practiced after that moment.

David,

William started in 1954 along with Lo Man Kam, Victor Kan, Lee Kam Sing and others who can validate this. He started learning in Restaurant workers union HQ AFTER Leung Sheung won re-election, which was in 1954.

I believe Lo Man-Kam was there off and on from an earlier date. He was in the school, and knew some WCK already, when Wong Shun-Leung showed up, and sparred with Wong before Yip Bo-Ching and ultimately, Yip Man.

Victor,

Of course I’m human, last I checked, most of us were. Even those who told cool Kung Fu stories in the 1980s.

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Anerlich: I will continue to misquote you, and everybody else. :smiley: (J/K), this is the internet, although a bit of a serious thread. I could have wrote “Seems to imply” or “suggests” or something but whatever, the keys flew. I didn’t really think that you were stating that such and such was definitely unique to the W. Chueng lineage, so I misquoted my own brain, too. Anyway it’s all for the best, as you provided a nice clarification.

Cheers

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Jim,

To play devil’s advocate (and perhaps show a better way to make (a variation of) the TWC argument) if Fok Bo-Chuen received the same system from Wong Wah-Bo that Chan Wah-Shun received from Leung Jan, if we believe that Leung Jan did indeed pass down 3 different variations of WCK (Foshan, Gulao, and what’s referred to as TWC), then it would mean Wong Wah-Bo would have had to have taught Leung Jan 2 different versions (Foshan and “TWC” - as Gulao he develped on his own later).

We already believe Wong Wah-Bo knew both Weng Chun Kuen and Wing Chun Kuen, so perhaps he knew something else as well? This would also make much more sense than Leung Jan just “making up” a whole other system to teach to Chan Wah-Shun within a matter of seconds.

To be complete, however, perhaps Fok Bo-Chuen learned the same “TWC” as Leung Jan from Wong Wah-Bo and then came up with Foshan WCK, which he shared with his sihingdai Leung Jan, and Leung subsequently taught to Chan Wah-Shun and, in different organization, in Gulao.

While both the above have to be considered “unlikely”, I don’t think we can discount them as “impossible” :wink:

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Renee I think there rae other possibilities without getting to far fetched. Leung Jan was also taught by Leung Yee Tai according to the story so it is possible each teacher taught him a different version where as Fok was only taught by Wong.
On a more historical level it is clear that several wing chun versions all emerged at about the same time. Also other close body styles emerged from the Foshan area at around the same time. Keeping in mind the turmoil that was Southern China from 1850 onward it is not surprising that myth and fact have become intertwined and myth has become reality for some. It is interesting to note that the tale of 4 monks and a nun getting together to build the perfect sytle could be the story book version of 5 or 6 martial masters on the Red Boats getting together and building a system or systems based on combined knowledge. As a foot note Hop Gar (lions roar) made its way to Foshan around the time of the appearance of WC,Southren Mantis etc. One of the creators of Lions Roar is said to have been a monk named… Ng Mui. Monk not a nun but what better way to protect the founder of you style, Wing Chun than to tell the powers that be to look for a woman instead of a man.

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Hunter,

Aha, Hop Ga comes from Lion’s Roar, and Lion’s Roar is Tibetain, so now the Tibetain WCK folks have a leg to stand on! LOL!

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Corrections

Stevo wrote;
“YM’s deep teaching to Bruce Lee? Bruce Lee did not learn the whole system. Recently i saw a tv interview with william cheung. he said in that interview that he himself taught bruce lee everything. someone in hollywood is making a movie about it.”

I have the Australian Current affairs segment on tape. Wm. Cheung says that he was Bruce’s senior and trained him to fight, as is evident by their correspondence. He never said he taught Bruce Lee everything himself. Thank God for modern technology.
Also, I have never heard that Leung Jan made up a system on the spot. Where the heck did that come from?..LOL

Rene,
Baat Jih Mah - side neutral stance
Yahp Jong - entry tech.
Seuihjik Mah - T stance
I “think” these are correct.
I have a tape of a private lesson with Cheung Sifu and Keith Mazza with the Chinese terms on it. I’ll look for it for the other terms.

Phil

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Phil,

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar! Thanks much!

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US Aussie TWC

For the last 20 years in my involvement with TWC the question has come up whether the students in OZ learned something different or better the their US brothers. I have posed that question to many of my bro’s who have gone to Australia to train either full or part time. I have been in constant contact with Dana Wong who moved from Boston to live and teach at our main kwoon. In fact, I was just with Sifu Joe Sayah who is from Melbourne and now lives in LA. last month and asked him the same question. The consensus is NO. People are taught according to their ability. There are some good and not so good on both sides of the pond. So being from one side or the other gives no one a monopoly on understanding. Well, Lewandy form Canada is an exception because he learned the entire system in 10…count 'em…10 months. 8)
Phil

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You got it Rene ! Something for everyone in creations myths.:smiley:

One thing though if you have ever seen good Hop Gar,Lions Roar, Lama, Tibeten, white crane etc etc etc Wing Chun could certainly be a system designed to beat it. Lions Roar did produce some good fighters that can be documented in the 1850s in the Fatshan area. Just a fun thought.:slight_smile:

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fa-jing

No sweat, thanks for the reply.

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Jim Roselando:

I don’t know why Wong Wah Bo may or may not have taught Leung Jan differently than others…and I don’t care!

And do you know why I don’t care?..Which is the same reason why I’ve ignored you about this until now…

Because it’s IMPOSSIBLE to really know what happened back then. I see what you’re getting at, but who knows why some things may have been kept secret and other things not? Who knows why some people may have been favored over others?

Do you know? Does anybody living in the present know?

Sometimes…(not always, but sometimes)… the best way to study history is by starting in the present and working backwards.

And in the present, there is this TWC system that had to come from somewhere…William Cheung says it came from Leung Bik…and Yip Chun makes some very revealing remarks in that interview that seems to give some (and in my opinion, more than some)…but let’s just say…some…credence to William Cheung’s claims.

I’ll have more to say later…Gotta go now.

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Hunter,

One thing that’s always amusing is the common assumption Guangdong didn’t have any martial arts and everything there now is a “pure” import from Henan, Fujian, Tibet, etc. LOL!

Most of the arts that did come from other places, like Lion’s Roar, or Fujian “Shaolin” were mixed with the local arts, producing unique, distinct systems like Hop Ga, Hung Ga Kuen, etc.

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Re: Corrections

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Stevo wrote;
“YM’s deep teaching to Bruce Lee? Bruce Lee did not learn the whole system. Recently i saw a tv interview with william cheung. he said in that interview that he himself taught bruce lee everything. someone in hollywood is making a movie about it.”

that wasn’t stevo, that was me. i do most humbly apologise for remembering incorrectly.

maybe you can answer my question about when gm cheung started training and whether he left school at 14 to go and live in with yip man?