Does anyone else here play the - Zhi Ku - Rip Off the Helmet set? I was told it comes from - shuishu tánglángquán - Throwing Hand Mantis and was primarily practiced in Taiwan.
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John,
It is a form, not just a technique. 
I am familiar with the technique, I was talking about the form.
Thanks for the reply though!
Zhai Kui
You posted in other thread
"My Wu Tang instructor recently told me that we have three forms from Shuaishou Tanglangquan in our curriculum: Praying Mantis Hands, Take the Helmet and Inserting Fist. "
Praying Mantis Hands is from Liang Jinchuan- son of Liang Xuexiang. Brought to Taiwan by Wang Songting.
Cha Chuei- Stick in the Fist is 100% 7 Star Mantis
Then we have Zhai Kui-Take the Helmet, whose origin is somewhat of a mystery. Most likely from Wang Songting. Either taught by him or created by him.
Taiwan Martial Art Research Development Report( Taiwan Di Qu Guo Shu Fa Zhan Zhi Diao Cha Yan Jiu is a report financed by Taiwan government of exhuastive research on the transmission of Northern martial arts in Taiwan after WW2. there is no mention of a master of Shuai Shou Tang Lang in Taiwan.
My teacher, Shi Zhengzhong, who spent his entire life climbing every hill of Taiwan looking for all things of Mantis also never came across Shuai Shou Tang Lang. The only mention of Shuai Shou Tang Lang is a brief list of Keywords in a book by Wei Xiaotang of Eight Step Mantis. This book was compiled by Master Wei’s students and is filled with material from other books and styles including those not native to Taiwan- Huang Hanxun- for example.
In the book Taiwan Martial Art Research Development Report( Taiwan Di Qu Guo Shu Fa Zhan Zhi Diao Cha Yan Jiu under Wang Songting, no mention is made of Take the Helmet. Nor do any of his students have it listed under their curriculum in this book.
Maybe a direct student of Gao Daosheng may be able to shed more light on the matter.
Back when I lived in Taiwan, I actually learned two different versions of Zhai Kuei, but unfortunately, I no longer remember either of them. The first version I learned when I trained at Gao’s school. It was actually one of his students who taught it to me. The other I learned under Peng Sifu. All I do remember is that the two versions were very different from each other.
Thanks Jimbo,
Gao Daosheng taught the form, but who is Peng Shifu? Student of who?
Hi.
Peng Sifu is the late Peng Han-Ping, whom I consider to have been my true instructor in Tanglang. His main Mantis teacher had been Wei Hsiao-Tang for five years until Wei died, and then he learned 7-Star, I believe, through the Wu Tan Institute and other teachers. His other specialties were Hung Gar and Chen Taiji, though I only trained Tanglang under him. He died in an accident in 1999 in Taiwan, over six years after I left there.
Kevin & Jimbo,
Thank you for the information!
So far I am aware of three versions of this form on video:
Long Fist Praying Mantis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vET--RFgCE8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLBB3047D9BD76D588
Su Yu Chang’s version demonstrated by Mike Martello:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh_7Eq_U_ng
My kung fu brother Laurence Frese:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfVnmfW1zRc
Laurence’s version is closest to the individual movements that I have learned so far. However, his performance is far softer and doesn’t express the jing I was shown. I believe he was just doing it slowly and smoothly to demonstrate the individual movements, which sacrificed the explosive power of the movements. Not a criticism, just a critique.
Richard:
Thanks for posting those clips!
The performer in the first vid, I’m pretty sure, was my senior under Gao Daosheng whom I knew by his abbreviated name,“Ah-ben”. It sure looks like him, though it must have been filmed in the 1980s (maybe when he and Gao visited Japan?). He would be into his 50s now. Anyway, the form resembles the first version I learned, but there are differences, too. At Gao’s school, I remember many people added to or varied the forms, so people often did things their own way. I remember Ah-ben tended to keep his forms the way he was taught.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1153977]The performer in the first vid, I’m pretty sure, was my senior under Gao Daosheng whom I knew by his abbreviated name,“Ah-ben”. It sure looks like him, though it must have been filmed in the 1980s (maybe when he and Gao visited Japan?).[/QUOTE]
Jimbo,
I’m glad you enjoyed the clips!
The clip you mentioned was filmed in 1993 in Japan.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1153977]At Gao’s school, I remember many people added to or varied the forms, so people often did things their own way. I remember Ah-ben tended to keep his forms the way he was taught.[/QUOTE]
It is interesting that they felt so free to change the forms.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1153977]I remember Ah-ben tended to keep his forms the way he was taught.[/QUOTE]
I had the privilege of viewing a clip of Master Yang Shu-Ton performing Zhai Kui in front of the Wu Tang Institute in Taiwan. He looks like he was in his early twenties at the time. The form as he demonstrated it then is the same as is taught in the Ohio Wu Tang now. I was very pleased to see it remains unchanged 40 some years later.
Correction
I just watched Master Yang Shu-Ton’s tape on Zhai Kui that was filmed in the United States in the 1980’s. On the tape it states that our version of the form comes from Closed Door Mantis, NOT Throwing Hands Mantis. It also states that it comes from Zhang De Kui through Su Yu Zhang and to Yang Shu Ton. I am learning it from James Rogers, a disciple of Master Yang Shu-Ton.
Shifu Rogers is one of several disciples promoted to “master” by Yang Shu-Ton. His lineage can be found at The Mantis Cave.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1154278]I just watched Master Yang Shu-Ton’s tape on Zhai Kui that was filmed in the United States in the 1980’s. On the tape it states that our version of the form comes from Closed Door Mantis, NOT Throwing Hands Mantis. It also states that it comes from Zhang De Kui through Su Yu Zhang and to Yang Shu Ton. I am learning it from James Rogers, a disciple of Master Yang Shu-Ton.
Shifu Rogers is one of several disciples promoted to “master” by Yang Shu-Ton. His lineage can be found at The Mantis Cave.[/QUOTE]
A lot of things were attributed to Zhang Dekui that he did not teach. This is a good example.
A Japanese researcher on Mantis who studied with Su Yuzhang before he left Taiwan. This Japanese researcher published many books on kung fu which were sold in Taiwan. These books became very popular.
The section talking about Zhang Dukui didn’t seem correct to Zhang Dekui’s student Shi Zhengzhong, my teacher.
Master Shi took the book directly to Zhang Dekui and Master Zhang said, I didn’t teach that!
In the past I have documented exactly what material Zhang Dekui did teach. His kung fu is vastly different from what is seen in Zhai Kui form
[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1154305]A lot of things were attributed to Zhang Dekui that he did not teach. This is a good example.
A Japanese researcher on Mantis who studied with Su Yuzhang before he left Taiwan. This Japanese researcher published many books on kung fu which were sold in Taiwan. These books became very popular.
The section talking about Zhang Dukui didn’t seem correct to Zhang Dekui’s student Shi Zhengzhong, my teacher.
Master Shi took the book directly to Zhang Dekui and Master Zhang said, I didn’t teach that!
In the past I have documented exactly what material Zhang Dekui did teach. His kung fu is vastly different from what is seen in Zhai Kui form[/QUOTE]
Would the Japanese researcher you mentioned be Matsuda Ryuchi? The only biographical information that I could find concerning him mentions his teacher as Liu Yunchiao. Can you tell me how you connect him with Su Yu Zhang?
Can you please reiterate what Zhang Dekui did teach? What specifically was attributed to him in the book you mentioned that he did not teach?
In an earlier post you mentioned that you had not studied Zhai Kui. How can you say with such certainty that it is different from what Zhang Dekui taught?
In above posts you mention:
- Zhai Kui is not mentioned in the curriculum of Wang Songting.
- Gao Daosheng taught the form (as verified by Jimbo).
- Zhai Kui is different than the kung fu taught by Zhang Dekui.
If this information is correct, then we have to ask the following questions:
- From whom did Gao Daosheng learn the form?
- From whom did Peng Hanping learn the form?
- From whom did Su Yu Zhang learn the form?
Thanks for your input! Please realize that my comments and queries are not a challenge to you personally, or your Shifu. I am only trying to dig for the truth. If the truth can still be found.
I will certainly admit to being a very anal minded person. I like to know and understand everything about the forms that I train on a daily basis. History, quanpu, applications - I want anything and everything that can help me to master the things that I train.
Richard,
I strongly believe the reason that many of Gao’s students added their own variations (usually subtle, some obvious) into their forms is because he almost never taught the applications (a big reason that I left). So then some people would think, “This move would look better if I do it this way.” And at the time (mid-'80s), almost all the teaching was done by senior students. Ah-Ben was the best/most consistent, but sometimes you were taught by someone else.
I would point out that this seemed most common in the Chang Chuan-based forms. I remember there were two lists of forms on signboards on a wall, one of Mantis and the other of various Chang Chuan sets. I remember there being a lot more Chang Chuan forms.
Regarding Matsuda Ryuchi, I have a lot of those books from when I lived in Taiwan. He not only researched Mantis, but northern styles in general. While I don’t know if he or his books were really good or not, the books themselves were actually produced better than the typical Chinese MA books. I used to be able to read Chinese somewhat decently, and his books were generally not a difficult read, as Chinese goes. It’s been a while, but I wouldn’t doubt that he got some things wrong, though.
Jimbo,
Thank you for your insights!
It amazes me that anyone would teach a form, yet not teach the applications. :eek: I cannot understand that mentality. I would feel like I had wasted my time learning the form.
I also think it is a terrible practice to have senior students teaching the classes. I teach all the classes at my school. Though I do allow seniors to add or clarify ideas when working one on one with other students in my presence.
Do you remember which mantis forms Master Gao taught, or at least which ones you learned during your time there?
Researching martial arts is a difficult task. Many things were only passed orally. This can lead to many mistakes and misunderstandings. Even written materials may be fraudulent or embellished. And politics abounds to the point that you never know who is trying to diminish the reputation of another teacher, while trying to pitch their own lineage. 
Richard,
I don’t want to sound like I’m disrespecting Gao, and I hope I’m not giving that impression, but I’m simply being truthful with my experiences there and what I saw. He was the first CMA teacher I ever trained under, and at that time I thought you had to wait for ‘the good stuff.’ I went to his school for 3 years, and occasionally he’d show an application, but he’d never break down the forms for apps, nor teach power generation, etc. I have no doubt he’d done that for a very small few, behind closed doors, at some point. He emphasized it was for health, etc.
When I found Peng Shifu, I re-learned a lot of things, but was able to progress rapidly because he had a good method of teaching the system. And he was young; only about 2 years older than I was. In many cases, there may be advantages to learning from an old teacher, but there’s also something to be said for learning from a good teacher who’s in the process of making a name for and developing himself. Besides that, Peng Shifu had us do lots of basics and 2-person drills and sparring, besides the forms.
As for the sets that I learned at Gao’s school, to the best of my recollection, they are:
Tanglang Shou
Lien Zi Chuei (Chang Chuan)
Xiao Hu Yen (Chang Chuan and Mantis)
Beng Bu
Si Lu Mei Hua (Chang Chuan)
Si Lu Cha Chuan (Chang Chuan)
Lan Jie
Duo Gang
Zhai Kuei
(and I sneak-learned Er Lu Mai Fu, a different school’s Chang Chuan set, from a friend I knew)
I also learned the typical weapons, staff, spear, saber, sword, etc.
When I went to Peng Shifu’s group, I relearned Mantis, which included some of the same-named forms, but they had varying degrees of differences. Xiao Hu Yen, a Chang Chuan set, is commonly practiced by Mantis practitioners in Taiwan as an early set. I also picked up Xiao Fan Che, Li Pi, Chi Shou, and Er Lu Zhai Yao from the 8-Step style. Unfortunately, I’ve retained none of these except, of course, for Beng Bu, which is easy to remember even without doing it. Under Peng Shifu, the only weapons I cared to learn were spear, staff, jian, and I played for a while with the rope dart. When I switched, I no longer did any empty-hand Chang Chuan sets, except for Peng Shifu’s version of Xiao Hu Yen.
I will say that this training all helped me when I ultimately switched my training to Choy Lee Fut, even though the flavor, some principles, etc., are different. There are a few similarities in areas as well. Peng Shifu emphasized that if you develop a strong base and understanding in kung fu, you can adapt to learning any other kung fu system fairly easily, which I found true in my case. So in that sense, the training that I received under Peng Shifu is still a part of me.
Jimbo,
Thank you for such a detailed answer! I appreciate your willingness to share.
I see that you listed Zhai Kui last in the order of forms. Did you learn it after Beng Bu and Lanjie, or were you just offering a random listing? Do you know if it was considered a beginning, intermediate, or advanced set?
The applications that I have learned are very typical of mantis. Throwing, arm breaking and striking abound in the form. One interesting thing found in the form are eye attacks that others have denied are found in mantis.
After the first three I listed, the forms did not seem taught in any particular order. Usually Chang Chuan sets were more freely taught. But Zhai Kuei was the last I learned, and was the only one that I actually asked to learn. Gao actually called in a student that was almost never there to teach it to me. While I was there, I never saw anybody else practicing Zhai Kuei, so I assume it was rarely taught, or was considered advanced. I ended up not practicing it very long, because I didn’t get a good feeling from the guy who was teaching me, i.e., he didn’t seem too happy to be called in. That wasn’t long before I met Peng Shifu and switched.
Jimbo,
Thank you for the added information!
Kevin,
Recently a video of Zhai Kui was posted on YouTube by Andrew Shinn, a student of Paul Sun (Philadelphia). I asked the poster if he knew where the version he learned came from. He responded that it came from Zhang Dekui through Shi Zhenzhong to Paul Sun.
I thought you might be interested in that.
The video and comments can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvqjCUav_iE
Here is the website that shows the genealogy of Paul Sun: