Your chi stories...

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

When I see a man of 74 who looks like a healthy, radiant, 50 year old and who at will manifests the effect of Qi on his arms and knocks me on my @ss with a simple move, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I stand with a 75 year old Qigong Master who’s Qi radiates outward and affects my Qi level, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I see a Nei Gong Master who’s stomach looks like he’s a professional Beer Drinker but when I punch it with all my might it’s like punching a car’s Steel Belted Radial, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

22

One thing I always found funny:

We are born, from the nothing we come and are given life. LIFE. No small task mind you. To create LIFE. Very magical if you ask me.

We DIE, we go away, leave this plane of existance to go where ever we go. Still quite a magical feat. Science cannot truly explain life or death. Sure to an extent yes, it can, but in totality science falls very short.

So many miracles and happenings of magic are seen on a daily basis, though we become familiar with these things we do not see them for the wonderful miraculous feats they are.

We can accept the obvious inevitability that LIFE comes from somewhere and goes somewhere when it is done.

Yet we have a hard time understanding or believing in Qi. In all its mariad forms and happenings.

I never understood how people can accept something so un explainable, simply because they can see it on a daily basis, though out right will deny the concepts, theories, and sciences regarding Qi without truly delving deep enough into the subject to wittness its qualities on a daily basis.

Where in fact people, all people, DO witness the occurances of Qi on a daily basis, though they refuse to acknowledge that what they may refer to as one thing is ALSO coincidentally refered to as Qi from another culture.

Yes there are the base occurances of Qi that we see every day, breathing, exersizing, giving birth, dying, singing, dancing, etc.

There are also the more sublte and un explainable occurances that will happen on a daily basis to/for those who have made the whole study of Qi a life long passion and dedication.

Now I think this latter aspect of Qi development, work and usage is what you will usually find to be in debate, though how often will you find someone who has dedicated the last 10 years of thier lives to the study of this amazing phenominon out right deny its existance?

I never have seen such a claim by one who has put in the time. Why would that be so? Maybe perhaps these people were in fact skeptical when they began thier studies, though through time many thruths will find ways of inserting themselves into your perception.

Practice and study being one way to stimulate this insertion.

23

um…everyone is debating,describing the nature of Ch’i, but nobody is relating any of their experiences? Isn’t that what the topic is?

24

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;781242]what does that mean? define healed"; and in what capacity did you do it? and to what sort of patients? what exactly do you think that you did to them? how many were acute, how many chronic?

don’t get me wrong - I;m not suggesting you didn’t do anything, but with things like “qi” healing, subjectivity al la entrainment / placebo effect is what is happening (and I do believe placebo effect is real, in terms of bringing about observable physiological changes, BTW, so I’m not suggesting it’s make-believe - but it’s not as hard to have happen as you may think)[/QUOTE]

I brought down an emotional barrier composed of ‘anxiety energy’, which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She’s living a much a happier life now.

I have also helped people to get their emotions under control…also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.

That’s just 2 examples. There are others that involve healing the physical body of injury/disease/etc.

25

[QUOTE=RonH;781733]I brought down an emotional barrier composed of ‘anxiety energy’, which was screwing up the mind of one woman, after having experienced it for most of her life (she was in her early 60s when I brought down the barrier). No physical contact between the two of us. I had made several attempts before to help her, but nothing I was doing could crack that armor. It extended out a good meter at least from any point on or in her body. Then, I was shown something by a friend and I used it to help bring it down. She was still a semi-mean person at times. The anxiety barrier just worsened her symptoms. She’s living a much a happier life now.

I have also helped people to get their emotions under control…also without phsycal contact or even with their knowledge, just as I had done with the woman I mentioned above with the barrier around her. A little background, private assistance to help them through some rough spots.

That’s just 2 examples. There are others that involve healing the physical body of injury/disease/etc.[/QUOTE]
I’m assuming that you have no license / training of any sort as a health-care practitioner; furthermore, not only is your perspective ridiculous, it is downright dangerous, on a number of levels:

first, your “diagnoses” are inherently unreliable, regardless of what you think you can sense intuitively; while nothing in medicine is completely objective, there needs to be some set of criteria to keep a healthy distance from the client

second, your treating people without training / license means that if (more like when) they have an unexpected / negative response to your “treatment”, you a) are more likely to mishandle it; b) they have no recourse, meaning that if you contribute to a crisis / flair-up, they are stuck with it, no mechanism to hold you accountable for what you did

third, if you think that “you” were the one that “brought down the barrier”, you need to seriously step back and reassess what you are doing

finally, what is most concerning is your espoused “treatment” of people without their knowledge, which is not only absurd and arrogant, but, even if it were true, is totally unethical! who are you to presume to “fix” someone without their knowledge? that implies they have no roll except as passive recipient, which even from the perspective of energy healing is untenable; furthermore, it deprives them of their fundamental right to have you stop what you are doing at any point

I’ve known more people with your perspective than I care to admit - heck, I was even moving in that direction myself at one point (I have done more than a fair amount of “off the body” treats, but thankfully realized what was really happening before I got too caught up in it); do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop playing doctor before someone gets hurt…

26

Healing at a distance etc?

No wonder people use examples like that for ridiculing the TCM concepts of chi.

On the other extreme is prescribing pills at the drop of a hat…

joy chaudhuri

27

[QUOTE=woliveri;781573]When I see a man of 74 who looks like a healthy, radiant, 50 year old and who at will manifests the effect of Qi on his arms and knocks me on my @ss with a simple move, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I stand with a 75 year old Qigong Master who’s Qi radiates outward and affects my Qi level, I understand the results of Qi Practice.

When I see a Nei Gong Master who’s stomach looks like he’s a professional Beer Drinker but when I punch it with all my might it’s like punching a car’s Steel Belted Radial, I understand the results of Qi Practice.[/QUOTE]
look, you can call what you are seeing anything you want, but what you are describing is the net effect of a variety of different functional entities: neuroendocrine, immunological, cardiovascular, neuromuscular, nutritional, pshychological, etc. etc.; instead of going into detailed description of everone of them, “qi” acts as a smmational descriptor, that is commenting on their overall state of being / health; you could just as easily use the word “vitality” (which many people do) to describe what you are talking about; I mean, howmany people have you stood next to in your life who have “altered” your perception of yourself? many people describe being in the presence of politicians, actors, etc. in very similar terms to what you describe when in proximity to a qigong master (and I would agree - i go into my sifu’s home and practice with him, and feel like I am turbo-charged - while I can break down the whole experience into various components in order to understand it, while I am there I simply experience it); as far as the results of “qi” practice: the actual practice these guys do and why it works can be explained with contemporary anatomical / physiological / kinesiological knowledge; and the results are that the organism functions more optimally, so that you can experience the effects you describe; so certainly, “qi” practice is beneficial - but it is also totally describable with never once using the terms “qi”;

[QUOTE=PangQuan;781606]One thing I always found funny:

We are born, from the nothing we come and are given life. LIFE. No small task mind you. To create LIFE. Very magical if you ask me.

We DIE, we go away, leave this plane of existance to go where ever we go. Still quite a magical feat. Science cannot truly explain life or death. Sure to an extent yes, it can, but in totality science falls very short.

So many miracles and happenings of magic are seen on a daily basis, though we become familiar with these things we do not see them for the wonderful miraculous feats they are.

We can accept the obvious inevitability that LIFE comes from somewhere and goes somewhere when it is done.

Yet we have a hard time understanding or believing in Qi. In all its mariad forms and happenings.

I never understood how people can accept something so un explainable, simply because they can see it on a daily basis, though out right will deny the concepts, theories, and sciences regarding Qi without truly delving deep enough into the subject to wittness its qualities on a daily basis.

Where in fact people, all people, DO witness the occurances of Qi on a daily basis, though they refuse to acknowledge that what they may refer to as one thing is ALSO coincidentally refered to as Qi from another culture.

Yes there are the base occurances of Qi that we see every day, breathing, exersizing, giving birth, dying, singing, dancing, etc.

There are also the more sublte and un explainable occurances that will happen on a daily basis to/for those who have made the whole study of Qi a life long passion and dedication.

Now I think this latter aspect of Qi development, work and usage is what you will usually find to be in debate, though how often will you find someone who has dedicated the last 10 years of thier lives to the study of this amazing phenominon out right deny its existance?

I never have seen such a claim by one who has put in the time. Why would that be so? Maybe perhaps these people were in fact skeptical when they began thier studies, though through time many thruths will find ways of inserting themselves into your perception.

Practice and study being one way to stimulate this insertion.[/QUOTE]
I have put in my time (12 + years); it is precisely because I have put in my time that I can confidently claim what I claim; I know it seems paradoxical, but that’s how it is; my perspective in no way diminish the efficacy of what I do - in fact, it has increased it’s efficacy; in other words, I am the opposite of what you describe: I went in as a “true believer”, fully invested; however, back when I was practicing in context of “qi” alone, my practice was lacking; since I rejected practicing under that context and started adpting my current perspective, everything changed; because it makes sense to me now in terms I can relate to directly (anat/phys/kinese), I feel more “ownership” of the practice, and as such more at ease, more liberated in it - more freedom everywhere - my brutal skepticism has enabled me to unflinchingly question and examine every aspect of what I do, and understand very clearly why I am doing it - as such, I no longer need to go through routines the same way, but rather can be more spontaneous and adaptable as the moment dictates; at the same time, because I have had certain experiences, I am not talking about it from the outside: I have had numerous experiences of the type people describe as related to “qi”, but I don’t relay them specifically, because I think they are unimportant to anyone but myself;

anyway, your point about the miracle of life is a great one: the point is to see the extraordinary within the profoundly ordinary - that’s really the take home message, IMHO

28

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;781749]No wonder people use examples like that for ridiculing the TCM concepts of chi.

On the other extreme is prescribing pills at the drop of a hat…

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

hubris is as equally at home in the esoteric as it is in the scientific…

BTW, it’s the US that tends to be pill-obsessed - my wife is a physician formerly practicing in the USSR - the amount of meds prescribed compared to here was significantly less, and results were often better…

29

[QUOTE=TenTigers;781732]um…everyone is debating,describing the nature of Ch’i, but nobody is relating any of their experiences? Isn’t that what the topic is?[/QUOTE]

well, if one rejects the premise, it’s hard to provide examples…

I guess I am guilty of a hijack though…:o

but ok, to break my self-imposed moratorium of description: I have had plenty of “experiences” of stuff - off the body “healing”, “energy projection”, all my “chakras / central channel” spontaneously “opening up” at 20,000 feet while flying home after a SomatoEmotional Release seminar (oh, I’ve been around the block with this stuff, believe me), and crazy, crazy stuff when on retreat up at Chuang Yen monastery doing Zhuenti Esoteric Vajrayana practice with Ch’an Master Shou You…but at the end of the day, it’s really all just phennomena, more distraction than anything else…

30

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;781234]yes they did - the fact that they had to resort to a metaphorical model to describe the way the body works is evidence that they observed physiological function only up to a point; hence, it was limited; just like “western” medicine pre-1900’s was also very limited, and so used many similar types of descriptors (go read some early osteopathic texts - they sound more like TCM than allopathic)[/quote]

Well, my friend, if you have gotten out of your Descartesian thinking cap, you might realize that my first remark is a part of a lager statement. :wink:

Since you have mentioned methaphorical model, which I presume you are talking about Yinyang and 5 phases theory, would you care to elaborate how you come to that conclusion? You do realize that Chinese developed quite complex mathematical expressions concerning Yinyang and Wuxing right? This I believe means that they are not mere literary concepts (ie a methaphor).

There are Neolithic artifacts (stone acupuncture tools) that are evidences of ancient “Chinese” healing practices. By the time of Spring Autuum (770-476 BCE) & Warring States (475-221 BCE), Chinese medicial doctors would even ask assistances to taste the dung of a patient to determine treatment. Eunuches were serving at the Royal court. This means relatively sophisticated operation procedures were available. The first comprehensive medicial text (Huangdi Neijing) was produced during Eastern Han dynasty (25 - 220 CE). The first comprehensive forensic science book was written during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE) and is possibly the very first one of its kind in the world. Tie Da (Bone setting, muscular treaments, first aid to cut, burn, trauma, etc.) an age old medical practice, is something that western allopathic medicine today still won’t acknowledge its effectiveness. Now with all these credentials behind it, you still believe the ancient Chinese have limited “knowledge” about physiology which is the science of dealing with “normal” (isn’t normal relative?) function of living organisms and their parts.

the way “we” know it, is also the way everyone “knows” it - and that’s because to a large extent, the bio-medical model trumps the TCM model in most cases, especially in traumatology and infectious disease management; why else has it become dominant? it works more consistently, more reliably and more quickly (largely because it is “forcing” something on the organism, as opposed to TCM, osteo, homeopathy, which push the body’s own abilities towards dealing with the illness: works great if you have the forces to do it, and the time…)

Be that as it may, there is a price to pay such as super drug resistive bateria and viruses (ie HIV) that keeps mutating. So the diseases that we thought we have eradicated with allophic measures are making a come back.

again, read up on “western” non-allopathic approaches such as homeopathic, chiropractic and osteopathic in their pre-20th forms: they are also “top down”, looking at the entire organism’s function in a holistic context; nothing unique about that in China; and the reason they stopped being so prominent here was because when allopathic medicine hit its stride, it worked much better, for all it’s linearity, then the other stuff did on most things (not everything, mind you, and certainly some things do respond better to a TCM / ostepathic / etc. approach); in fact, contemporary allopathic approach doesn’t put them in opposite corners either;

While you are trumpeting allopathic medicine, you do realize that it’s not at all affordable on a large scale right? This is IMHO the primary reason that universal health care is not available in super power nation as rich as the United States of America. Now Canada could be bankrupted if she’s not careful with the whole notion of primary care and long term care enbedded in the universal health care system. TCM is feasible as both preventive and long term care measure because

  1. it is democratically accessible just about anyone can benefit from practicing it in self help fashion with minimal supervision.

  2. it is economically viable with dieting, exercising and herbal tonics and can cut medical and social cost drastically; hence, beneficial to the society as a whole.

why is "qi’ quanta? I know Kapra has a very romantic view of Shiva’s dance looking like a collision in a particle acccelerator, but quantum physics is simply what it is: describing how things work at the “very small” level; up here in the big world, Newton still rules…

Nebula formation that is akin to DNA formation (double helix) can be observed in galaxy far far away. DNA in essential are chemical components (complex carbohydrates) which operated under the same principles as everything else at the “very small” level. Carbon and hydrogen molecules are everywhere in the universe including those far away Nebula. Oh BTW, water (hydrogen molecules) and fire (carbon molecules) phases are the first 2 phases of the 5 phases. Molecules don’t just pops ups. It comes from something (ie particles). You can’t create something out of nothing unless you are God Himself right? Whether it’s Qi, Quanta, or whatever protomatter, you take your pick.

Newton rules the mechanical world (ie planes, trains, automobiles, rockets or what have you). But it never presides over or problem solve human rights, poverty, etc. pretty much every concerning the human heart. Newtonian physic may make a man knowledgeable but it can never make a person “intelligent” about “matters” (pun intended) of the heart.

mystical experience = self-indulgent cr@pola (just my opinion); mere distraction; solar-flares of the brain…even the Taoist’s practicing alchemical transformation warned of them; and the Ch’an folk would smack your head with a broom handle if you talked about that sort of thing…

You are entitle to your opinion. All I am saying is that there is a place for science and there is also a place for mysticism. It doesn’t have to be a p!ssing contest of who’s better.

why is secularism arrogant? why is it arrogant to see things simply such as they are? if anything, theism / religion is the arrogance: man, in his desire to feel like he occupies some special place in the universe and because of fear of the unkown (death) / possible extinguishing of the ego construct, has created, in his own image, a great fabrication that has been the cause of more suffering and torment than anything else I can fathom; don’t consfuse Dao and good: Dao is form and function such as they are, and requires no elaborate theology or even belief in itself to manifest; without human consciousness, poof, God begone - quite a difference…

Well, it simply is a matter of perspective. I am neither a monotheist nor am I a scientist (hardly can be qualify as a mystic either). But without light, structure and shadow, there is no perspective. Sometime we have got to put our minds to work and ask ourselves where the hack is the light coming from and what is it doing here and there?

Warm regards

Mantis108

31

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]Since you have mentioned methaphorical model, which I presume you are talking about Yinyang and 5 phases theory, would you care to elaborate how you come to that conclusion? You do realize that Chinese developed quite complex mathematical expressions concerning Yinyang and Wuxing right? This I believe means that they are not mere literary concepts (ie a methaphor). [/QUOTE]
I don’t mean it in the literary sense - I mean it in the descriptor sense: wheras in allopathy they describe the function of the liver by looking at the actual liver, in TCM, they describe it in terms of the function of the Wood element; now, we all know that there is no “wood” in the body, but TCM uses it because it looks at the “Liver” in context of its proposed function in regulating the sinews; in allopathy, this is not wht the function of the liver is associated with directly at all; however, an interesting thing to note is that the notion of Wood is that of youth, of regeneration - funny how the liver is one organ that can regenerate itself moreso than any other…so definitely something was observed functionally that reflected this aspect of the liver; however, despite some valid observations, at the same time, their undestanding of actual liver physiology was extrememly limited compared to what is known today
as for the mathematics, I will be the first to say that the I Ching is essentially the worlds first binary computer, and you can also analyze it in context of a normal bell curve (Jou Tsung Hwa’s book, specifically); but that has nothing to do with “qi” as a metaphor

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]There are Neolithic artifacts (stone acupuncture tools) that are evidences of ancient “Chinese” healing practices. By the time of Spring Autuum (770-476 BCE) & Warring States (475-221 BCE), Chinese medicial doctors would even ask assistances to taste the dung of a patient to determine treatment. Eunuches were serving at the Royal court. This means relatively sophisticated operation procedures were available. The first comprehensive medicial text (Huangdi Neijing) was produced during Eastern Han dynasty (25 - 220 CE). The first comprehensive forensic science book was written during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE) and is possibly the very first one of its kind in the world. Tie Da (Bone setting, muscular treaments, first aid to cut, burn, trauma, etc.) an age old medical practice, is something that western allopathic medicine today still won’t acknowledge its effectiveness. Now with all these credentials behind it, you still believe the ancient Chinese have limited “knowledge” about physiology which is the science of dealing with “normal” (isn’t normal relative?) function of living organisms and their parts. [/QUOTE]
I am not saying that, in its time, Ancient Chinese medicine wasn’t high level - but it was still limited compared to what is known today; same with Egypt or other Middle Eastern countries at around the same time; as for bone setting, it is not at all rejected by allopathy - rather, it has been updated to be more reliable and safer (e.g. - usin x-rays to diagnose the exact nature of a frature and doing an ORIF eliminates a lot of the potential risk of palpating and manually setting a break without visual access); as for muscle treatments, these are in fact widely accepted by physiatrists (PM & R docs) and orthopedists: to wit, they send people to PT all the time, and we use things like PNF, Muscle Energy, Counterstrain, etc. to treat muscles directly; also, Janet Travel, MD and Hans Kraus, MD popularized the practice of trigger point injection to treat muscles; furthermore, chiropractic and Ostepathic manual practice is accepted by many MD’s; if Dit Da is not accepted, it’s probably due more to it just not being as well known, and also because of how Emergency Medicine functions in the US in terms of access; but I think that is changing, to wit Tom Bisio and co. teaching it in NYC, with very good results I understand;
but still, if you had your hand cut off in ancient China, no one was reconnecting it microsurgically…so they were still limited as compared to today

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]Be that as it may, there is a price to pay such as super drug resistive bateria and viruses (ie HIV) that keeps mutating. So the diseases that we thought we have eradicated with allophic measures are making a come back. [/QUOTE]
that has more to do with misuse of antibiotics and lack of proper hygene - it’s really more a public health issue than anything; it’s not a failure on the part of the treatments per se;

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]While you are trumpeting allopathic medicine, you do realize that it’s not at all affordable on a large scale right? This is IMHO the primary reason that universal health care is not available in super power nation as rich as the United States of America. Now Canada could be bankrupted if she’s not careful with the whole notion of primary care and long term care enbedded in the universal health care system. TCM is feasible as both preventive and long term care measure because

  1. it is democratically accessible just about anyone can benefit from practicing it in self help fashion with minimal supervision.
  2. it is economically viable with dieting, exercising and herbal tonics and can cut medical and social cost drastically; hence, beneficial to the society as a whole. [/QUOTE]
    I am not talking economics, but TBH, it’s not allopathy per se that is expensive, but rather the medical industrial complex (to paraphrase Eisenhower) that has taken control of it that has made it so prohibitively expensive; resource allocation has always been asymmetrical, and as such, the have’s want to stay that way, so they use mechanisms of health and other resources (energy, food, water) to maintain the status quo; the reason they use allopathy as an instrument is because it works as well as it did although they also interfere with TCM gaining ground because they want total dominance of the market (conspiracy? oh yeah…;))
    actually, “western” medicine’s greatest contribution has probably been in the field of public health, which, if properly applied, is cheap and effective (e.g. - sneezing into your elbow and washing your hands more are two simple ways to stop disease spreading and this costs nothing); that also includes healthy lifestyle and decreasing stressors (Selye) - but what interfere’s with these are the demands of modern society, basically dealing with the mess we have made of our planet and the fact that there are just too many of us living on it

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]Nebula formation that is akin to DNA formation (double helix) can be observed in galaxy far far away. DNA in essential are chemical components (complex carbohydrates) which operated under the same principles as everything else at the “very small” level. Carbon and hydrogen molecules are everywhere in the universe including those far away Nebula. Oh BTW, water (hydrogen molecules) and fire (carbon molecules) phases are the first 2 phases of the 5 phases. Molecules don’t just pops ups. It comes from something (ie particles). You can’t create something out of nothing unless you are God Himself right? Whether it’s Qi, Quanta, or whatever protomatter, you take your pick. [/QUOTE]
it basically shows that nature works along principles that mirror each other from micro to macro (fractals), and as such there are a limited number of “shapes” that it uses to function as such; as for fire and water being 2 of the 5 phases (not necesarily the first two - it depends on which schema you use), well, that’s because they are important / essential elements to basic life maintenance, not because the ancient Chinese knew anything about molecular structure (although I am not clear as to your point regarding this in general)

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]Newton rules the mechanical world (ie planes, trains, automobiles, rockets or what have you). But it never presides over or problem solve human rights, poverty, etc. pretty much every concerning the human heart. Newtonian physic may make a man knowledgeable but it can never make a person “intelligent” about “matters” (pun intended) of the heart. [/QUOTE]
not so - your physical structure, subject to the laws of physics, effects your emotional state profoundly - if I break my leg falling out of a tree, I will have a change of emotional state immediately; likewise, if I am physicall out of proximity of someone I love deeply, i can experience emotional changes - so I think our physical existence and the laws that govern it have a great impact on our emotional state, but we just don’t notice it because we take it for granted

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]You are entitle to your opinion. All I am saying is that there is a place for science and there is also a place for mysticism. It doesn’t have to be a p!ssing contest of who’s better. [/QUOTE]
it’s very simple: don’t confuse the relative with the absolute; in other words, sometimes you need to pay attention to individual trees when walking through the forrest; circumstance dictates which is needed when;

[QUOTE=mantis108;781762]Well, it simply is a matter of perspective. I am neither a monotheist nor am I a scientist (hardly can be qualify as a mystic either). But without light, structure and shadow, there is no perspective. Sometime we have got to put our minds to work and ask ourselves where the hack is the light coming from and what is it doing here and there?[/QUOTE]
God is dead; so is Nietzsche; we are also nothing more than walking corpses…

32

Hi Cjurakpt

Thanks for the reply, I have just a short one for now.

don’t mean it in the literary sense - I mean it in the descriptor sense: wheras in allopathy they describe the function of the liver by looking at the actual liver, in TCM, they describe it in terms of the function of the Wood element; now, we all know that there is no “wood” in the body, but TCM uses it because it looks at the “Liver” in context of its proposed function in regulating the sinews; in allopathy, this is not wht the function of the liver is associated with directly at all; however, an interesting thing to note is that the notion of Wood is that of youth, of regeneration - funny how the liver is one organ that can regenerate itself moreso than any other…so definitely something was observed functionally that reflected this aspect of the liver; however, despite some valid observations, at the same time, their undestanding of actual liver physiology was extrememly limited compared to what is known today

I believe in TCM the liver’s main function is that it houses and regulates blood; where as lungs houses and regulates air as a form of Qi. In the context of the Wuxing model, it is of the wood element because of its blood nuturing attributes as well as that it has a distinctive blue tint (ultra violet) - the color of wood. 5 Phases are meant to be abstract thinking model. It is carefully constructed and not at all random and arbitrary unlike a lot of the would be experts would have us think.

as for the mathematics, I will be the first to say that the I Ching is essentially the worlds first binary computer, and you can also analyze it in context of a normal bell curve (Jou Tsung Hwa’s book, specifically); but that has nothing to do with “qi” as a metaphor

I am not familiar with the bell curve and am not aware of Jou Tsung Hwa’s book concerning this. I do have his Taiji book though. I would have to double check on that. As for the binary system, well it was a gross misterpretation on the Xian Tian Tu (primodial arrangement) by Shao Kangjie (1011-1077 CE). That arrangement’s worldview is IMHO more akin to Quantum Physics in it’s original intend. But Zhu Xi (around 1130 CE) didn’t quite get the mathematics and the phenomena studies of Shao. So he created his own method resorting to a simpler reasoning model (dualistic) which resulted in later discovery of the “link” between it to the binary system by the western world. But like the Chinese would have said “some wrong could come out right”. Zhu Xi’s worldview is dualistic where the world is simply black and white as his school of thoughts preaches. So… I think we should be aware of that.

Warm regards

Mantis108

33

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;781745]I’m assuming that you have no license / training of any sort as a health-care practitioner;[/quote]

Why would you assume that?

furthermore, not only is your perspective ridiculous, it is downright dangerous, on a number of levels:

first, your “diagnoses” are inherently unreliable, regardless of what you think you can sense intuitively;

The fact she is living a healthier and a lot more clam life now is an example in favor of the reliability of such examinations.

while nothing in medicine is completely objective, there needs to be some set of criteria to keep a healthy distance from the client

In certain circumstances, yes. In others, being close helps the ‘patient’ physically and mentally.

second, your treating people without training / license means that if (more like when) they have an unexpected / negative response to your “treatment”,

What I’ve done is not the same as giving a certain amount of medicine to a patient in the form of pills/liquids/etc.

you a) are more likely to mishandle it;

If the intent is to help and heal, the energy will follow those commands. There is more programming of the energy that needs to be done (depending on the person giving the treatment and how they are treating them), but the energy won’t suddenly turn around and make their flesh burn or the eyes explode. It doesn’t work like that.

b) they have no recourse, meaning that if you contribute to a crisis / flair-up, they are stuck with it, no mechanism to hold you accountable for what you did

If chi is given to heal one’s physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies.

third, if you think that “you” were the one that “brought down the barrier”, you need to seriously step back and reassess what you are doing

Why? My track record of many many years of successes speaks for itself. When it doesn’t work, it comes from the ‘damage’ being too much for my abilities or I didn’t find the proper way to end the situation. How I work doesn’t exacerbate symptoms.

finally, what is most concerning is your espoused “treatment” of people without their knowledge, which is not only absurd and arrogant, but, even if it were true, is totally unethical!

In a physical altercation, if one were to move so fast that one’s opponent doesn’t understand how his energy is being redirected/manipulated, would it be unethical to fight against him in that fashion? Mental/emotional manipulation is often done in many things in life. When you give pain medicine to a patient, you are interferring with the mental and emotional state of the patient.

Politics itself is mind control and it continues to exist.

Someone with a rudimentary amount of understanding of how to use chi in healing or anything else can figure out how to use it appropriately. Even then, the best, deliberate exercise one would use is just loading someone up with so much chi that they cross the level their bodies are able to comfortably sustain within themselves.

who are you to presume to “fix” someone without their knowledge? that implies they have no roll except as passive recipient, which even from the perspective of energy healing is untenable;

It’s tenable.

furthermore, it deprives them of their fundamental right to have you stop what you are doing at any point

When a body wants, it takes from its environment. When it is ‘full’ or rejects something, it closes itself off as much as it can. I get very clear signals that bodies stop ‘feeding’, so I stop.

I’ve known more people with your perspective than I care to admit - heck, I was even moving in that direction myself at one point (I have done more than a fair amount of “off the body” treats, but thankfully realized what was really happening before I got too caught up in it); do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop playing doctor before someone gets hurt…

It’s unfortunate that you don’t have a clear understanding what’s happening. If you’d care to say ‘what was really happening’, I’d be better able to clarify things for you.

34

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]Why would you assume that?[/QUOTE]
because the way you talk about things and the whole MO you use is indicative of that; so does your not saying that you are but rather posing an irrelevant question - if you were licensed, why not simply say so and resolve that issue? although, if in fact you are licsensed, then you show a decided lack of regard for proper professional comportment; so, which is it?

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]The fact she is living a healthier and a lot more clam life now is an example in favor of the reliability of such examinations.[/QUOTE]
no, it means that the human organism is very good at taking almost any form of generalized “input” and using it as fulcrum to leverage itself towards homeostasis, especially when that input fits the person’s psycho emotional needs - welcome to the world of the autonomic nervous system and the very strong, very real phennomenon know as the placebo effect

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]In certain circumstances, yes. In others, being close helps the ‘patient’ physically and mentally.[/QUOTE]
you can be very close, but you still ned to keep some distance, otherwise you loose proper perspective, plain and simple

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]What I’ve done is not the same as giving a certain amount of medicine to a patient in the form of pills/liquids/etc.[/QUOTE]
it has nothing to do with what you give them: I’ve seen people flair up / flip out from both hands on manual and “off the body” energy healing; there is no such thing as a free lunch: if something is really strong enough to help you, it is strong enough to harm you; sound clinical judgement is usually enough to keep any untoward effects from happening, but every now and then something goes awry, as it’s impossible to be 100% accurate when trying to predicte patient response

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]If the intent is to help and heal, the energy will follow those commands. There is more programming of the energy that needs to be done (depending on the person giving the treatment and how they are treating them), [/QUOTE]
oh, this is the old Upledger party line: the patient’s “inner physician” will always know exactly what that person needs, way better than anyone else can, and as long as the intention is right, the univese wil take care of it; well, if that person’s IP is so smart, why are they in this mess to being with?

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]but the energy won’t suddenly turn around and make their flesh burn or the eyes explode. It doesn’t work like that.[/QUOTE]
what I’m talking about is that with this kind of “stuff”, you can have wonderful autonomic mediated flair ups: I don’t know what population you are used to workng with, but where I worked in NYC for ~10 years, our clinic was known for working mostly with people that had been everywhere else: most people’s “impossible” cases were our bread and butter - so we saw people with some really unbelieveable stuff; as such, every now and again someone would have a unanticipated poor response, even when you went that extra mile to make sure they wouldn’t - but that’s what happens every now and then when you are dealing with people whose systems are out of balance

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]If chi is given to heal one’s physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies.[/QUOTE]
you seem to miss my point entirely - if the person has a negative reaction, for whatever reason, as the result of a treatment, then a licensed practioner will be legally responsible if they acted in a way that was unprofessional, unethical or deviated from what is considered to be appropriate practice for that profession - as a professional, the onus is on you because the patient has put their trust in you; if you betray that covenant, willingly or unknowingly, you need to be held accountable, the patient needs to have recourse for you not holding up your end of the agreement; if you have no license, that can’t happen, especially when you are engaging in “treatments” that are not recognized as having inherent efficacy (so in other words, you think “qi” healing is real and effective, but the system doesn’t; that works out very nicely for you if the patien later on claims that you did something to them using “qi” - the system doesn’t recognize it, so technically you couldn’t possibly have caused the negative effect, since “qi” doesn’t really exist - nice catch 22 in your favor, but totally unfair to the patient)

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]Why? My track record of many many years of successes speaks for itself. When it doesn’t work, it comes from the ‘damage’ being too much for my abilities or I didn’t find the proper way to end the situation. How I work doesn’t exacerbate symptoms.[/QUOTE]
yes, it speaks for itself, because it is inherently impacted by a host of subjective criteria; what are your actual percentages in terms of succes? how do you define success? and what are you recidivism rates? also, what are your criteria for even taking someone on? don’t think you don’t subjectively screen out people you don’t think you can help (never mind that a large percentage of the population self-screens themselves out by not even seeking out what you do), which automatically improves your track record; in other words, the vast majority, if not all, the people who end up coming to you are predisposed towards “fringe” treatments, and being thusly invested at the outset are predisposed towards a positive outcome, because they have decided beforehand that your thing is what’s going to fix 'em;
and as for not exacerbating symptoms: if you want to make an omlette you gotta be willing to break a few eggs - input / output - if what you are doing is such that intrinsically it “can’t” exacerbate something, then it’s not what’s really “healing” the people you are “treating” - there is no free lunch…

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]In a physical altercation, if one were to move so fast that one’s opponent doesn’t understand how his energy is being redirected/manipulated, would it be unethical to fight against him in that fashion? Mental/emotional manipulation is often done in many things in life. When you give pain medicine to a patient, you are interferring with the mental and emotional state of the patient.[/QUOTE]
are you kidding?!? when you are fighting, it’s inherently adversarial! you are actively trying to take someone’s choices away! the whole point of combat is to be unethical - that’s why it’s fighting! when you are healing, it’s the exact opposite: you are trying to give someone more choices, to increase their freedom - doing something to them without their knowledge is sickiningly paternalistic, and even the most out-there energy healer types I know wouldn’t go for it; as for pain meds, you call it interfering (some might call it intervening, or even alleviating), which belies your own strong personal bias, sorry to say, and is an extremely judgemental way of characterizing something that, for many people, enables them to be functional in their lives when they other wise couldn’t be; don’t get me wrong, BTW - I am no cheerleader for pain meds, and in many cases i thik that they become more of a problem than the original injury, but you need to evaluate each person individually rather than making sweeping generalized comments about what pain meds are or do…

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]Politics itself is mind control and it continues to exist.[/QUOTE]
proof basically of mankind’s eternal drive to stick its head in the sand as long as it’s not inconvenienced…but I’m not here to debate humanity’s history of ineptitude in regards to itself and the environment in which it exists

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]Someone with a rudimentary amount of understanding of how to use chi in healing or anything else can figure out how to use it appropriately. Even then, the best, deliberate exercise one would use is just loading someone up with so much chi that they cross the level their bodies are able to comfortably sustain within themselves.[/QUOTE]
riiight - be very wary of any method where beginners have even the possibility of having an effect anywhere’s near that of an experienced practitioner - if they can, it’s just more evidence that what they are doing is a) BS; b) not what is actually having the effect they are observing - again: no free lunches!

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]It’s tenable.[/QUOTE]
it’s not; and it’s totally unethical

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]When a body wants, it takes from its environment. When it is ‘full’ or rejects something, it closes itself off as much as it can. I get very clear signals that bodies stop ‘feeding’, so I stop.[/QUOTE]
right - all of a sudden, this body, which is so out of balance that it can’t self organize enough to the point where the person is asymptomatic, all of a sudden “knows” just what it needs, even to the point where it tells you when it’s “full” - how convenient…

[QUOTE=RonH;782047]It’s unfortunate that you don’t have a clear understanding what’s happening. If you’d care to say ‘what was really happening’, I’d be better able to clarify things for you.[/QUOTE]
brother, I am crystal clear on what is going on - I have no illusions about it - there is nothing for you to clarify at all, so don’t worry youself about it in the least…

anyway, this is a pointless pursuit, we will obviously not see eye-to-eye on this; good luck in the future and consider yourself lucky you have come this far without incident…

35

so..Chris, have you had any experiences with Ch’i? Could you share them?
-otherwise this thread is turning into the annex for the JREF.
The thing is, from what I’ve seen, pretty much every phenomena could in some way be explained. I would like to hear some experiences which make you go,“I’ve seen and experienced some things that have totally flipped me out, that to this day, I have no logical explanation for..”

36

[QUOTE=TenTigers;782098]so..Chris, have you had any experiences with Ch’i? Could you share them?
-otherwise this thread is turning into the annex for the JREF.
The thing is, from what I’ve seen, pretty much every phenomena could in some way be explained. I would like to hear some experiences which make you go,“I’ve seen and experienced some things that have totally flipped me out, that to this day, I have no logical explanation for..”[/QUOTE]

well, that’s the problem in a way - I have never been satisfied by not having a logical explanation for anything: I mean, i have experienced very strongly what many would call their central channel “opening up”, or their “kundalini” rising, whatever; I have dewcribed phennomenna to my teacher that he said straight out was microcosmic and macrocosmic orbit activity - I have felt my entire lower dan tien literally explode and melt away into liquid white light (I know, I know, spare me the jokes) on the 5th day of a seven da Ch’an retreat, and after that sitting for an hour of meditation was a piece of cake compared to the hell it was a day before; I have felt so “full” of “qi” at times, that I thought I’d float away

the difference is that I look at all of these experiences with a certain degree fo skepticism - in a way, I don’t trust them, and am not satisfied by the typical explanations; some I have been able to put firmly in context of anat/phys and other “western” disciplines; others are partially satisfied by this, so they are like works i progress; but all are subject to the same scrutiny regardless…

and just for the record, I can still point my fingers at people’s palms from a few feet away and place my other open hand behind their’s, have them close their eyes, and most people will tell me that they feel activity at the center of their palm, as well as pulsations that occur at the same rate at which I move my fingers toward and away from thier hand…a cheap parlor trick IMHO, but still very interesting…and not proof of “qi” by any means, only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated…

37

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;782101]…only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated…[/QUOTE]

Hmmm…isn’t that sort of the definition of Qi?:wink:

38

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;782146]Hmmm…isn’t that sort of the definition of Qi?;)[/QUOTE]

Not really.

39

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;782101]…only an indication that there is an interaction of some sort of field effect between two people that has not yet been objectively documented or articulated…[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;782146]Hmmm…isn’t that sort of the definition of Qi?;)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=NJM;782412]Not really.[/QUOTE]

Well let’s see,

  1. Some sort of field effect?

Qi, is or has a field effect!

  1. Interacts with others?

Qi interacts with other phenomena!

  1. Has not yet been objectively documented or articulated?

According to western scientific method, Qi has not been effectively or objectively documented to a reasonable certainty!

I guess I should have said, “It sounds like a description of Qi” or “It describes some of the qualities of Qi”, but it seemed to me the connection between “definition” and “description” would be self-evident.

40

[QUOTE=cjurakpt;782093]because the way you talk about things and the whole MO you use is indicative of that[/quote]

If you desire the specifics, I’ve had some medical training, but I’m not a doctor, nor am I a med student. Plus, with the way I speak of things, you separate a particular method of speech with one type of view, as if having medical training meant I couldn’t or wouldn’t speak of things in the way I have been.

so does your not saying that you are but rather posing an irrelevant question

I was just asking why you thought that. There wasn’t any hidden agenda behind it.

if you were licensed, why not simply say so and resolve that issue?

Because whether I was a licensed medical doctor is irrelevent when it comes to chi healing. One is not required for the other.

although, if in fact you are licsensed, then you show a decided lack of regard for proper professional comportment; so, which is it?

Credentials is not the issue. Experience, facts, and logic are.

no, it means that the human organism is very good at taking almost any form of generalized “input” and using it as fulcrum to leverage itself towards homeostasis, especially when that input fits the person’s psycho emotional needs - welcome to the world of the autonomic nervous system and the very strong, very real phennomenon know as the placebo effect

And when I don’t tell the individual that I am giving them energy to heal them, there can’t be a placebo effect. The placebo effect requires a belief in something, specifically consicous belief. Subconscious belief is more like brainwashing.

you can be very close, but you still ned to keep some distance, otherwise you loose proper perspective, plain and simple

We’ll need to just accept each other’s views and move on on this point.

it has nothing to do with what you give them

Yes, it does. You said I run the risk of making things worse by the healing itself.

I’ve seen people flair up / flip out from both hands on manual and “off the body” energy healing

I would need some details of the situations to comment on them. Just saying ’ I saw something bad happen, it must have an inherent danger’ is the wrong attitude to approach it with.

there is no such thing as a free lunch: if something is really strong enough to help you, it is strong enough to harm you; sound clinical judgement is usually enough to keep any untoward effects from happening, but every now and then something goes awry, as it’s impossible to be 100% accurate when trying to predicte patient response

Such blanket statements come from a misunderstanding of what is going on. It’d work fine with the medical community, but it isn’t the same with energy healing.

oh, this is the old Upledger party line: the patient’s “inner physician” will always know exactly what that person needs, way better than anyone else can, and as long as the intention is right, the univese wil take care of it; well, if that person’s IP is so smart, why are they in this mess to being with?

What you’re calling the inner physician is the subconscious. And I already addressed that part earlier with this bit: “If chi is given to heal one’s physical, mental or emotional body, the target has the choice of accepting it or rejecting it. Sometimes, the conscious or subconscious is unaware that there is energy that is trying to help them. Not because the target really wants to be sick. There is the chance of that, but that is not the default position. More often than not, it is a lack of understanding that causes the rejection, not some masochistic tendencies.”

If you truly wish to understand the nature of energy healing and the ‘medicine’ of it, this is one of the best starting points you can have.

what I’m talking about is that with this kind of “stuff”, you can have wonderful autonomic mediated flair ups: I don’t know what population you are used to workng with, but where I worked in NYC for ~10 years, our clinic was known for working mostly with people that had been everywhere else: most people’s “impossible” cases were our bread and butter - so we saw people with some really unbelieveable stuff; as such, every now and again someone would have a unanticipated poor response, even when you went that extra mile to make sure they wouldn’t - but that’s what happens every now and then when you are dealing with people whose systems are out of balance

Any energy healing worth his salt wouldn’t deny modern medicine. I’ve recommended it with people that I have healed with energy. There have been some that have requested energy healing and I’ve sent them straight to the arms of their general practicioner for some modern medicine. As far as these ‘flair ups’ you’ve vaguely talked of, any number of reasons could be the cause, even when the healer knows what they’re doing. Where it isn’t the fault of the healer or the technique, but of something else. This is why specifics are important in what those situations are.

you seem to miss my point entirely - if the person has a negative reaction, for whatever reason, as the result of a treatment, then a licensed practioner will be legally responsible if they acted in a way that was unprofessional, unethical or deviated from what is considered to be appropriate practice for that profession -

I didn’t miss the point. But, what you are suggesting here is that the flair up must have been caused by the healer, seemingly as the default position when there could have been something else that was the true cause of the flair up. If a patient is in recovery after surgury and he willingly does something that would force him to be reopened, would you automatically blame the doctor that performed the surgury or would you investigate to find out the actual cause of what went wrong? What if it was someone that snuck into recovery and did something to the patient? What then?

as a professional, the onus is on you because the patient has put their trust in you; if you betray that covenant, willingly or unknowingly, you need to be held accountable, the patient needs to have recourse for you not holding up your end of the agreement;

So, imagine the number of legal motions that will fill the courts if it is brought to light just how much of an influence the energy fields of people influence/control emotions, thoughts, physical conditions, the fabric of reality itself:

  • Judge: Why are you filing this lawsuit?
  • Accuser: He thought bad thoughts about me. That made me depressed and I lost my job. I seek satisfaction of lost wages.
  • Judge: Granted, the defendent is ordered to pay the plaintiff for lost wages and pain and suffering caused by mental anguish.
  • Accused: But, your honor, the plaintiff is having thoughts about me rotting in jail. These will most likely lead to me spending the rest of my life in prison and I might die in there.
  • Judge: What about just thinking it won’t happen to you?
  • Accused: My accuser had the same choice and he didn’t do that.
  • Judge: Bailliff, take them both away.

Now, let’s get back to the energy healing flair ups. Have you investigated what the cause could have been? Something unknowlingly attached to the energy field of the patient and the healing upset the thing, so it caused the flair up to stop the energy transfer?

if you have no license, that can’t happen, especially when you are engaging in “treatments” that are not recognized as having inherent efficacy (so in other words, you think “qi” healing is real and effective, but the system doesn’t; that works out very nicely for you if the patien later on claims that you did something to them using “qi” - the system doesn’t recognize it, so technically you couldn’t possibly have caused the negative effect, since “qi” doesn’t really exist - nice catch 22 in your favor, but totally unfair to the patient)

What about instances where we see people get bullied into situations that they don’t want to be in? In some, like intimidating a witness in a trial is against the law, but others aren’t, such as the school yard bully. The system recognizes that such a negative influence exists in both instances, but it allows for recourse by the inflicted in only one of them. Even some things that are recognized by the system don’t let the injured party get compensation.

yes, it speaks for itself, because it is inherently impacted by a host of subjective criteria; what are your actual percentages in terms of succes?

While I haven’t done the specific numbers, my guess would be that it is in the 90s with zero percent for situations where I have aggrivated situations ever.

[quote]how do you define success?

The total number of people, divided by the cessation/alteration of the current situation, when there is little change, when there is no change and if the sitaution gets worse. For that last one, as I said above, I have a 0% rating.