[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1077301]As ever, I would say ‘not so’ with regards to Lee Shing.
Yes, commercially Lee Shing promoted Ip Man and his HK teachings, but we all know that he taught a wider curricullum to all his students from Austin Goh to Joe Lee to Joseph Cheng and my Sifu Joe Man.
Other than think he ‘added’ to what Ip Man taught him, I was always of the understanding that this was simply Wing Chun. Whether the ‘other stuffs’ are from Fatshan, Kulo or Hoxan (Lee Shings birthplace) doesn’t really matter to me personally.
What I do know is that Ip Man knew what Lee Shing was doing! And this was one of the reasons Lee Shing took him as his Sifu and Ip Man took him as his student. Of course, he also trained with and was introduced to Ip Man by Lok Yiu and Jiu Wan, so the Fatshan flavour was already there.
Just passing on what I know. :)[/QUOTE]
My point is compare the flavour of Lee Shing’s Yip Man forms with Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu and the Futshan group Lun Gai and Gwok Fu, and Lee Shing bears more signatures in common with Chu Shang Tin, Lo Man Kam, WSL, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Ng Chan, and Koo Sang’s WCK.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1077354]Here we have some footage of Mai Gei Wong WCK Wong Nim Yi. He is playing the Siu Lien Tao set which is very similar to the Futshan group I mentioned. Notice he does not do Huen Sao, but a “Lop Sao” at the end of the sections.
I think many people haven’t seen a lot of Mainland China WCK as I have. Do a search and look at the others.
Maybe you could share your reasons why “Huen Sao at the end of every section”.[/QUOTE]
This is a really interesting video, thank you for sharing it. I’ll want to watch it again later and the others you posted as well.
There are a lot of very cool subtleties in here that I want to take time to consider. For now, it appears that he is expressing some of his vertical punches with a protruding first knuckle (I don’t know if that’s officially pheonix eye or not). Do you see what I’m seeing and agree that I’m interpreting it correctly?
Both gwok fu and lun gai do the outside hoon sao. After talking about it and showing how they do it I realised we do the same move while doing poon sao and we change arms, ie one inside and one outside hoonsao.
[QUOTE=Jon_Ray_Brooks;1077368]This is a really interesting video, thank you for sharing it. I’ll want to watch it again later and the others you posted as well.
There are a lot of very cool subtleties in here that I want to take time to consider. For now, it appears that he is expressing some of his vertical punches with a protruding first knuckle (I don’t know if that’s officially pheonix eye or not). Do you see what I’m seeing and agree that I’m interpreting it correctly?
Again, thank you for sharing this.[/QUOTE]
You’re welcome!
Yes, its a phoenix eye fist after the Lop or Ngoi (Outside) Huen… in other lineages, its a backfist. Originally all SLT/SNT has the same opening moves as seen in the Yip Man Biu Jee set. Yip Man changed them to simplify it in HK.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1077392]Both gwok fu and lun gai do the outside hoon sao. After talking about it and showing how they do it I realised we do the same move while doing poon sao and we change arms, ie one inside and one outside hoonsao.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the Huen Sao is opposite in HK from Fut Shan.
[QUOTE=Jon_Ray_Brooks;1077407]Pardon my ignorance, but is that a consistent Pheonix Eye expression to the type that would appear is say White Eyebrow?[/QUOTE]
John,
I’ll let you decide. This young man is pretty good at the first major set of Bak Mei (White Eyebrow). Do you think it has the same signature in body movement as WCK?
yeh its a pheonix fist, gwok fu and lun gai do that too. You see heaps of mainland people use it over the tan sao when rolling. It works well, unless you extend and face it. The prolem is that it doesnt have as much control with the elbow, it seems to slip past. When talking to them I asked if its like the idea of the first bit in chum kiu. Ie instead of fingers you do the pheonix fist. They agreed same idea. Slipping over when you can drive through with the elbow.
Oh never meet gwok fu, my teacher is good friends with him, I have met lun gai. I have trained with their guys but.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1077354]Here we have some footage of Mai Gei Wong WCK Wong Nim Yi. He is playing the Siu Lien Tao set which is very similar to the Futshan group I mentioned. Notice he does not do Huen Sao, but a “Lop Sao” at the end of the sections.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1077404]Originally all SLT/SNT has the same opening moves as seen in the Yip Man Biu Jee set. Yip Man changed them to simplify it in HK.[/QUOTE]
Why would somebody put movements from BJ into SLT when they have completely different ideas between them???
Worrying stuff but then again I know nothing of mainland China WCK so I’ll just conclude that it is completely different to YM-WSL Ving Tsun.
I used to think that way as well and it makes perfect logical sense if you see SLT, CK and BJ as a linear progression, which may be a flavour from the HK years.
However, if you see it as a circular cycle of progression i.e. each form feeding the other, then having what may be perceived as elements of BJ in SLT makes perfect sense too.
[QUOTE=Ozzy Dave;1077533]However, if you see it as a circular cycle of progression i.e. each form feeding the other, then having what may be perceived as elements of BJ in SLT makes perfect sense too.[/QUOTE]
Very true and also very undermined by all the ‘linear’ fanatics.
Truth be told, Wing Chun is both linear and circular and having BJ or CK influences within the opening set of SLT may just be an indication of where that particular Sifu was at when he taught that way imho.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1077355]My point is compare the flavour of Lee Shing’s Yip Man forms with Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu and the Futshan group Lun Gai and Gwok Fu, and Lee Shing bears more signatures in common with Chu Shang Tin, Lo Man Kam, WSL, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Ng Chan, and Koo Sang’s WCK.
Yes I know what you’re implying and thanks for using the ONLY clip of Lee Shing at last!
The way I look at it, Ip Man knew what he was doing in Fatshan and in HK and any differences in his teachings should be viewed as an overall expression of Wing Chun. There is no better way, but all ways should be looked into by the serious student.
Q. Wasn’t it in HK that the SLT was first taught at the beginning of a students learning?
[QUOTE=Graham H;1077531]Why would somebody put movements from BJ into SLT when they have completely different ideas between them???
Worrying stuff but then again I know nothing of mainland China WCK so I’ll just conclude that it is completely different to YM-WSL Ving Tsun.[/QUOTE]Read it again Graham. The opening movements if BJ were originally in SNT. Yip Man removed those movements from SNT when he taught in HK. Why? Who knows? Evolution? Redundancy?
[QUOTE=CFT;1077537]Read it again Graham. The opening movements if BJ were originally in SNT. Yip Man removed those movements from SNT when he taught in HK. Why? Who nows? Evolution? Redundancy?[/QUOTE]
Can you tell me how you know that because I never knew Yip Man? :rolleyes:
Sounds to me (as with a lot of posts on here) that you is pi**ing in the wind!!
However, if you see it as a circular cycle of progression i.e. each form feeding the other, then having what may be perceived as elements of BJ in SLT makes perfect sense too.
Dave[/QUOTE]
So where are elements of BJ in SLT then Dave???..or anybody for that matter.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1077538]Can you tell me how you know that because I never knew Yip Man? :rolleyes:
Sounds to me (as with a lot of posts on here) that you is pi**ing in the wind!![/QUOTE]His Foshan students perform the SNT that way, as do other mainland lineages. If it is not present in HK YMWCK forms then logic suggests that it was removed. Only the motivation behind the change is unknown.
[QUOTE=CFT;1077540]His Foshan students perform the SNT that way, as do other mainland lineages. If it is not present in HK YMWCK forms then logic suggests that it was removed. Only the motivaton behind the change is unknown.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you that the forms train very different things. So I would not be surprised that YM streamlined his curriculum. I read that YM/WSL made some changes to the choreography of SNT due to WSL’s beimo experiences.
