Chinese MMA fighter Xu Yao Dong issued an open challenge, claming Chinese martial arts is full of phoneys, particularly Taiji. A guy from Chengdu, Lei Lei, founder of Lei Gong Taiji, took up the challenge… the result is… well…
Aye Carumba. Thank you for sharing this. Thank God for sparring lessons, hands up in practical fighting stance, etc.
The Tai Chi guy just tried to deflect with his arms. :eek: Won’t work.
I enjoyed watching some of Shifu Onassis Parungao’s old fight videos a whole lot better. A more practical way to make the traditional style work.
For instance… (I guess I am analyzing the fight video here) why didn’t the Tai Chi guy try to deflect with a groin kick/ over-head smash? Those apps/techniques are in the Tai Chi forms. Instead the tai Chi guy acts like he is playing push hands games when he is squared up against an opponent in a fight. That seems like it is an amateur mistake. An important lesson I learned from my Longfist teachers was, that push hands does not equate to sparring. Push hands is a good skill to have, it can be employed in sparring if necessary, but it is like any other technique or skill.
I think I have heard people say this here before: more assertive, less defensive. Strict Tai Chi guys with little to no sparring or fighting experience seem to be more defensive. Than they get knocked out and that golden opportunity never comes to land that golden technique that you know oh-so-well.
[QUOTE=shanghai-mantis;1302624]Lei Lei, founder of Lei Gong Taiji, took up the challenge…[/QUOTE]
So, fake Taiji and delusions of grandeur?
Even so, the MMA guy went 0 for 6 standing punches.
Didn’t land anything until the guy was run down and he was finally able to land some punches on the ground. Great.
The biggest mistake I see from the get go is, the Tai Chi practitioner, who was moving back a lot while squaring off, never really engaged the MMA guy who was entering with a lot of forward pressure…which is what a good fighter or someone intent on hurting you will do. When the engagement took place Tai Chi was retreating with no “root” to stand on. Had Tai Chi rooted and entered close enough to suppress the legs then took care of MMA’s hands, he could have struck and/or taken MMA down. Instead MMA just bulldozed Tai Chi to the ground like a rock slide.
Ouch! That will leave a mark.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1302626]So, fake Taiji and delusions of grandeur?
Even so, the MMA guy went 0 for 6 standing punches.
Didn’t land anything until the guy was run down and he was finally able to land some punches on the ground. Great.[/QUOTE]
Off you go, offer to show the mma guy what real life fun can do…
[QUOTE=robertdreeben;1302627]The biggest mistake I see from the get go is, the Tai Chi practitioner, who was moving back a lot while squaring off, never really engaged the MMA guy who was entering with a lot of forward pressure…which is what a good fighter or someone intent on hurting you will do. When the engagement took place Tai Chi was retreating with no “root” to stand on. Had Tai Chi rooted and entered close enough to suppress the legs then took care of MMA’s hands, he could have struck and/or taken MMA down. Instead MMA just bulldozed Tai Chi to the ground like a rock slide.
Ouch! That will leave a mark.[/QUOTE]
The mistake was thinking he could fight without any sparring practise, the big mistake was thinking forms and push hands practise equals being able to fight
this has never happened in china before, traditional gongfu guys were never called out. nobody in china heard of the 90s ufc or cares. this is a shock because the two guys are big names in china. the sky might fall down on the traditional Chinese gongfu industry.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1302626]So, fake Taiji and delusions of grandeur?
Even so, the MMA guy went 0 for 6 standing punches.
Didn’t land anything until the guy was run down and he was finally able to land some punches on the ground. Great.[/QUOTE]
the guy is the fonder of Chinese mma. he brought mma to china in 2001. he is the shi deyang of mma. getting ko by him is a great honor.
If the Taiji guy can move in circle, if his opponent has to move in straight and turn, his opponent won’t be able to develop linear momentum that fast. Does Taiji have footwork? I have not seen one yet.
I like the footwork in the following clip. If you can force your opponent to move with you, at least you can control the distance and angle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl7757ENouM&feature=youtu.be
[QUOTE=bawang;1302630]this has never happened in china before, traditional gongfu guys were never called out. nobody in china heard of the 90s ufc or cares. this is a shock because the two guys are big names in china. the sky might fall down on the traditional Chinese gongfu industry.
the guy is the fonder of Chinese mma. he brought mma to china in 2001. he is the shi deyang of mma. getting ko by him is a great honor.[/QUOTE]
hes also an actor too isnt he? ive got a feeling its him who starred alongside Yu Cheng Hui in Judge Archer
Heres some background to the Taiji guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EprNKGHPrxA&t=0s
The MMA guy has now issued an open challenge to any Taiji people. If you have Weibo, its quite entertaining to follow. Some Wudang “abbot” has accepted, as well as a Taiji guy called Wang Zhan Hai.
[QUOTE=shanghai-mantis;1302634]Heres some background to the Taiji guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EprNKGHPrxA&t=0s
The MMA guy has now issued an open challenge to any Taiji people. If you have Weibo, its quite entertaining to follow. Some Wudang “abbot” has accepted, as well as a Taiji guy called Wang Zhan Hai.[/QUOTE]
There is a whole lot of fantasy going on in the Chinese martial art world. first off any kung fu guy willing to fight a match[not friendly training] against a young MMA competitor should obviously be a young competitor himself. for example a Sanda fighter. That and in this day and age still to be completely unaware of a ground game it’s unbelievable. If you still have no clue that these guys train hard and are very skilled fighters, specially in a competitive environment, than that right there proves your “cluelessness”.
This cluelessness goes above and beyond simple fighting in the Chinese arts. there are still people out there that believe you have to be of Asian decent to be a kung fu teacher/expert… kung fu has been around what since the 70s in the states. it is ten times easier to find a good kung fu instructor in new York city than it is in most Chinese big cities. then there are those that think only Asians know the true secrets. I bet this tai chi guy thought he knew a bunch of secrets and played master on his students demoing little simple applications, like they are the end all be all of fighting. in my experience many of the Chinese teacher’s have strong foundations and basics are very good, also are good at applying power, but usually lack real life fighting experience. where the western kung fu instructors grow up in a more hostile environment and have more fighting knowledge and experience.
One more point on this cluelessness in fighting and reality topic. I believe this stems back to Chinese politics and social order. the communist government personally keeps people stupid. for example blocking social media, regulating tv programs and religion, strictly controlling what students learn in school. You can see this tai chi MASTER,is still pre ufc 1993 state of mind. the MMA guys on the other hand have outside influence, and are free thinkers because they train in a system that learned form systems with roots outside of china.
Tai Chi Footwork
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1302632] Does Taiji have footwork? I have not seen one yet.[/QUOTE]
Tai Chi does have footwork but very few Tai Chi practitioners know it. It is called the Five Elements Footwork, which is a sup ji, or plum blossom pattern, which the Tai Chi guy did use in the engagement initially. There is also the inverted triangle to a triangle out. There is no aggressive footwork in Tai Chi as it is meant to absorb, redirect, and return the attack to the opponent. Tai Chi is a truly defensive system of training. This is the reason that in the early 1900’s Tai Chi practitioners also practiced Pa Kua and Hsing I, which formulated the “Three Sisters” model. Before that, Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and Hsing I were one training. Sun Lu Tang and his students were responsible for splitting them into three separate training styles, for primarily financial gain. But before that, they were all various aspects of one style of training- Wudang training. As the “Three Sisters”, Tai Chi teaches the sensitivity, absorption, and repulsion, Pa Kua Single Change teaches to deflect and move on the circle to the side door, and Hsing I teaches finishing moves and counter punching. They were originally trained as one package. What you see the Tai Chi guy doing in said engagement is one third of the potential.
[QUOTE=bawang;1302630]this is a shock because the two guys are big names in china. the sky might fall down on the traditional Chinese gongfu industry.[/quote]
Really? Being a “big name” doesn’t mean that guy’s Tai Chi style was legit or representative of TCMA.
I just read that Chen Village accepted the challenge, saying it only means something if the opponent is someone recommended by everyone.
So, hopefully they give him someone good and we see something more interesting.
the guy is the fonder of Chinese mma. he brought mma to china in 2001. he is the shi deyang of mma. getting ko by him is a great honor.
Hmm… I haven’t been able to find much about him on the Chinese internet.
The only other video of him on Youtube is him shamelessly beating up some weak guy in his gym who’s obviously no match for him.
Kicks him in the face after he’s already down on his hands and knees… :rolleyes:
But how many punches did that take and the guy didn’t even hit the floor…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXyTDCvVOQU
Just seems like a loudmouth pr!ck trying to make some money/fame challenging what he perceives to be the weakest styles (Tai Chi).
But now he’s got more real martial artists stepping up, and he’s getting scared. What if he loses??
The only video of him actually facing a real opponent is from back in '03 against a Jiu-Jitsu guy, and he spends most of the match stuck under side mount, then gets caught in an arm bar and loses.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1302640] I just read that Chen Village accepted the challenge, saying it only means something if the opponent is someone recommended by everyone.
So, hopefully they give him someone good and we see something more interesting.[QUOTE]
that would be more reasonable, since they are used to resistance. they do a rugged type of push hands similar to sumo or Greco roman wrestling, heard they also practice sand as part of their training.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1302638]There is a whole lot of fantasy going on in the Chinese martial art world. first off any kung fu guy willing to fight a match[not friendly training] against a young MMA competitor should obviously be a young competitor himself. for example a Sanda fighter. That and in this day and age still to be completely unaware of a ground game it’s unbelievable. If you still have no clue that these guys train hard and are very skilled fighters, specially in a competitive environment, than that right there proves your “cluelessness”.
This cluelessness goes above and beyond simple fighting in the Chinese arts. there are still people out there that believe you have to be of Asian decent to be a kung fu teacher/expert… kung fu has been around what since the 70s in the states. it is ten times easier to find a good kung fu instructor in new York city than it is in most Chinese big cities. then there are those that think only Asians know the true secrets. I bet this tai chi guy thought he knew a bunch of secrets and played master on his students demoing little simple applications, like they are the end all be all of fighting. in my experience many of the Chinese teacher’s have strong foundations and basics are very good, also are good at applying power, but usually lack real life fighting experience. where the western kung fu instructors grow up in a more hostile environment and have more fighting knowledge and experience.
One more point on this cluelessness in fighting and reality topic. I believe this stems back to Chinese politics and social order. the communist government personally keeps people stupid. for example blocking social media, regulating tv programs and religion, strictly controlling what students learn in school. You can see this tai chi MASTER,is still pre ufc 1993 state of mind. the MMA guys on the other hand have outside influence, and are free thinkers because they train in a system that learned form systems with roots outside of china.[/QUOTE]
To me it is all marketing bullsh*t like Mike Tyson in his prime against two Mike Tysons would look like the tai chi vs mma video lol.
The conditioning of the master even if he had the moves of the mma guy he looked like he has a weak back compared to the mma guy like a twenty year old Tyson running doing leg work six hours a day would dummy a fat fifty year old current Tyson.
A big thing between an eight year student of mma vs a kata student is the kung fu guy spends four years on staff and sword, etc which the fake kung fu hippy guys on youtube dont do like Mcdojo schools they never build the proper foundation and strength from weapons training and the good kung fu guys spend four years on kata basics with four years weapons foundation training while the Muay Thai guy does three years shadow boxing and four years cardio and sparring.
Also I think before the days of pirates and guns lol good martial soldiers for hire would train weapons for ten years twelve hours a day before being employable nowadays people are lucky to train twice a week.
been there, done that
I posted this earlier on the Tai Chi winner in MMA. I thought about merging this but then decided that this discussion is lively enough here.
[QUOTE=wiz cool c;1302638]There is a whole lot of fantasy going on in the Chinese martial art world. first off any kung fu guy willing to fight a match[not friendly training] against a young MMA competitor should obviously be a young competitor himself. for example a Sanda fighter. That and in this day and age still to be completely unaware of a ground game it’s unbelievable. If you still have no clue that these guys train hard and are very skilled fighters, specially in a competitive environment, than that right there proves your “cluelessness”.
This cluelessness goes above and beyond simple fighting in the Chinese arts. there are still people out there that believe you have to be of Asian decent to be a kung fu teacher/expert… kung fu has been around what since the 70s in the states. it is ten times easier to find a good kung fu instructor in new York city than it is in most Chinese big cities. then there are those that think only Asians know the true secrets. I bet this tai chi guy thought he knew a bunch of secrets and played master on his students demoing little simple applications, like they are the end all be all of fighting. in my experience many of the Chinese teacher’s have strong foundations and basics are very good, also are good at applying power, but usually lack real life fighting experience. where the western kung fu instructors grow up in a more hostile environment and have more fighting knowledge and experience.
One more point on this cluelessness in fighting and reality topic. I believe this stems back to Chinese politics and social order. the communist government personally keeps people stupid. for example blocking social media, regulating tv programs and religion, strictly controlling what students learn in school. You can see this tai chi MASTER,is still pre ufc 1993 state of mind. the MMA guys on the other hand have outside influence, and are free thinkers because they train in a system that learned form systems with roots outside of china.[/QUOTE]
I’ve long felt that having a solid background in non-CMA prior to taking up kung fu is a big advantage. The vast majority of kung fu people I’ve personally known who really excelled at actually fighting with kung fu against all types of opponents already had extensive experience in other arts/methods: judo, various styles of karate; boxing, kickboxing/MT, etc. There was already an extensive foundation of sparring or fighting in place.
The article in the link below is long, but I thought it might be relevant to this thread. I WILL point out that, although some things are very true and/or quite plausible, a lot of it is presumptuous nonsense. In fact, I have never read an article with such a bizarre combination of truths, half-truths and utter BS.
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Chinese-martial-arts-not-used-in-MMA
First off, I’ll mention some of what the article says that I know are BS:
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Mas Oyama beat every karate master in Japan. FALSE. His own top student, John Bluming, even stated that Mas Oyama himself probably never had a fight in his life. And as for his fighting bulls, I’d have liked to have seen him fight a real fighting bull, like the Matadors face. Of course, he would have been gored to death in seconds.
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Of all the CMA, only Wing Chun was effective against other styles. Total bull****. The author is obviously a Bruce Lee/Ip Man worshipper. He either ignores or is unaware of the fact that CLF has stepped up and been proven effective in various formats, including against Muay Thai. Maybe not in MMA yet, but CLF fighters have put themselves out there for decades. But obviously, those who did trained to fight competitively with it.
Related to No. 2: Wing Chun can be used to easily beat up karate or TKD guys. Depends on the individuals. I’ve seen many examples to the contrary.
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Chinese parents are proud and happy for their kids to learn traditional kung fu (Wing Chun, etc.) but equate fighting sports like MMA with gangsterism. When I lived in Taiwan, many kids’ parents equated traditional kung fu with gangsterism, and preferred them to study Taekwondo, kendo, etc., considering the latter to be cleaner, more professional, and more wholesome.
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“We need yellow pride, holmes”. Where does this guy come off saying ‘we’? The author’s name is Kenneth Ketchum, and from the photo he’s a black guy. It’s not his or anyone else’s place to tell members of another racial group how they feel (or should act or feel). Plus, he continually says “Asians” when he’s referring specifically to Chinese.
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All Chinese, all Koreans, and all Japanese are the same as each other within their own nationalities. What a crock of sh!t. That’s like saying all Italians are shorter and have better muscle definition than all Germans, and that all English are prissy and sit around drinking tea with their pinky finger sticking up. But for some reason people allow for the fact that Europeans are distinct individuals, not walking stereotypes off an assembly line.
Like I said, some things in the article are pretty much spot on, but there’s a load of BS to sift through as well. Many people who don’t know the difference will probably take it all as gospel.
[QUOTE=diego;1302642]To me it is all marketing bullsh*t like Mike Tyson in his prime against two Mike Tysons would look like the tai chi vs mma video lol.
The conditioning of the master even if he had the moves of the mma guy he looked like he has a weak back compared to the mma guy like a twenty year old Tyson running doing leg work six hours a day would dummy a fat fifty year old current Tyson.
A big thing between an eight year student of mma vs a kata student is the kung fu guy spends four years on staff and sword, etc which the fake kung fu hippy guys on youtube dont do like Mcdojo schools they never build the proper foundation and strength from weapons training and the good kung fu guys spend four years on kata basics with four years weapons foundation training while the Muay Thai guy does three years shadow boxing and four years cardio and sparring.
Also I think before the days of pirates and guns lol good martial soldiers for hire would train weapons for ten years twelve hours a day before being employable nowadays people are lucky to train twice a week.[/QUOTE]
I study and love kung fu like most of us here do, but sooner or later you got to call bull****. I don’t blame this MMA guy he didn’t go to the Tai chi guys school and challenge him. this tai chi guy was so delusional he actually thought he could fight without ever practicing fighting. I had a little incident yesterday. I have been at my Shifu’s school for over a year and a half. been doing this style for several years in my previous city, and doing martial arts for decades before that. so recently[last two months] my Shifu’s kung fu brother has been at the school and he brings along this young like 18 maybe 20 year old guy who severed in the Chinese military. his training is a bit in Sanda and qin na. seems his skills are at least decent. but not a whole lot of realistic experience. so recently the kung fu uncle has been getting more involved with teaching some different skills to my Shifu’s students. so yesterday during the pad hitting class, my Shifu’s kung fu brother is teaching some basic Sanda skills. the young guy is also walking around acting like a teacher and basically showing off to the younger students.
so at one point the young guy starts trying to teach me some basic punch I learned over 20 years ago. and last weekend he was trying to do some nonsense demo stuff with me. so the whole class is watching now and I lost it. I punched him in the jaw[lightly] while he was TEACHING me. he doesn’t. he doesn’t try blocking or move, lets out a kind of stunned laugh. he goes on continuing trying to teach me some basic move I learned before he was alive on this earth. and I do it again punch him on the jaw with my other hand. he didn’t even prepare for something[I would if this happened to me] so he just continues to run his mouth and I tap his groin with a front instep kick. through all this he never used footwork, tried blocking or defending himself. yet he is teaching me Sanda.
then my Shifu’s kung fu brother come up to me later when I’m doing a kicking combination, he starts off with no and shaking his head[here we go,im thinking] he is going to reteach me how to do a round house kick. something I learn thirty years ago. I just couldn’t do the whole let me be quiet and pretend I don’t know how to do this and let him be the MASTER. I told him in Chinese[I’m tired, I had knee surgery before, and I don’t want to give my body any problem].
The funny thing is at 46 and with reconstructive knee surgery, I still train everyday, about two hours. sometimes in the yard by myself sometimes with the kids. The Kung fu uncle and his young apprentice never train. I have never seen either of them train or sweat.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1302647]I’ve long felt that having a solid background in non-CMA prior to taking up kung fu is a big advantage. The vast majority of kung fu people I’ve personally known who really excelled at actually fighting with kung fu against all types of opponents already had extensive experience in other arts/methods: judo, various styles of karate; boxing, kickboxing/MT, etc. There was already an extensive foundation of sparring or fighting in place. [/QUOTE]
yeah I am sorry to say that has been my experience too. if people trained correctly though that wouldn’t be necessary. I wrote an article about this recently yet to be published.
Xu has set this situation up so its a loss for Taiji whatever. The young Chen village guys train Sanda, which Xu is saying is not valid, as even if they win they arent using Taiji to fight him.
My hope is this whole thing will drag CMA out of the hole its dug itself into. Just yesterday was training in the park with Rendahai, and a guy in beautiful white silks turned up next to us, a crowd surrounded him with camera phones while he did some little tricks having people grab his write… all the while looking really smug and full of himself.
As Lei Lei discovered, getting punched in the face by someone really wanting to hurt you is very different to doing Push Hands in the park. What I think he should have done was stand his ground, cover his head and meet the force head on. That would have allowed them to go into close enough range for him to at least attempt his Push Hands stuff. If I get overwhelmed in sparring, my general reaction is to do this, and then stick to the opponents arms so I can limit his attacks and gain some control over him.