I have a problem concerning A Wing Chun technique appliction for Bear hug, the story goes one of my friends has just started doing a security course (He has been doing wing chun for 2 years, light Brown sash) and they were doing techniques against bear hug, he found that he was purely out powered and he couldnt raise his arms to break out and the pelvic trust backwards did nothing. on some occations The instructor would lift him off the ground doing the bear hug which totally limited what he could do.
Ultimately Wing Chun didnt work, I ask why? is it that he is S#$^ and couldnt do it well enough or does it require alot more strength to do? or is it the style just isnt any good against a grappler.
Thats about all the info I can give since thats all he has told me
I look forward to some answers in the close future
If the exercise is to try and escape from a Bear Hug which is applied and you can not move unil the hold is executed then it will be extremely difficult to escape no matter what art you chose to do. A key aspect of countering any type of grapple or controlling attack is to respond before a good hold is applied. Once someone has put a good hold on you it will be bery difficult if not impossible to break out.
A key is to respond before the hold is applied. However there are several factors which need to be considered. For example is this a rear or forward Bear Hug or is it intended to defend against both? Are the arms covered or free? If this is a defense against a rear Bear Hug which covers the arms then again you would need to react before the hold is fully applied. The most simple technique could possible be to shift slightly to the side while inhalling fully. You may even want to sqaut down slightly. Using whichever hand is appropriate, depending on the sid eyou shift towards, you can attempt to strike to the groin with something akin to a Fak Sau. You can also attempt to scrape your foot down along the aooponents shin. In addition to this while you attack the oppenent you can use your free hand to try and grab the attackers hands. If you can grip a finger then twisting it may be of some benefit.
Of course, this is easy to write on the internent. There are a variety of factors which will make the above either worthwhile or worthless. However, I still believe that one the of the key elements of a sucessful response is to react as soon as you realize the attack is coming. Try to cut off the hold before it is applied fully.
I agree with Dave! Any lock or hold is much more difficult to escape if you wait for it to be fully applied before you attempt to respond. Even systems that specialize in such things will emphasize this!
While I agree that once many holds are fully locked in - escape can be very difficult (and sometimes impossible)…
I’m wondering if…after your friend used his pelvic thrust backward (presumably hitting the man with his back)…while thrusting his arms forward (even if he could only raise them up from between his hands and his elbows)…
he still didn’t create enough room behind him (it only takes a few inches) to reach behind with both hands and literally grab and squeeze the bear hugger’s testicles?
The counter to a rear bear hug (arms over) is found in the second section of the first form. You do not have to thrust your pelvis back - in fact doing so probably makes the counter harder. The trick is to lift your elbows up, not your hands although your hands (through the fact of being connected to your elbows) will of course move up. This action will create room by breaking/loosening his grip via leverage and allow you to do a rear strike to his groin. This should as a reflex make him pike and the two things together - lifting the elbows and striking backwards, should give you enough room to turn into him. If you still cant get this to work, drop the hips down while you push up with the elbows i.e. sag and make yourself a dead weight. This will make it harder for him to lift you. your instructor should be able to demonstrate this on you. If he cant it might be time to get another teacher (the ‘brown sash’ comment raises red flags). One last resort if you are picked up off the ground is to grape vine his leg.
Hey guys,
Definitely the key is to react as you see the hands come around. And of course it’s impossible to catch it all the time. IMO the best way to get out of a bear hug is to hit the guys back of his hand with your knuckles, it hurts quite a bit. Try it on yourself if you haven’t felt it. Another thing is that you can usually get a hold of a finger or pry it away from the others and just literally try and rip it off.
Now, after saying that, that’s great if you have a few seconds to react. I was on the market once and a guy tried to grab me from behind and lucky enough I was able to react before he clenched his hands by jutting out my elbows to widen the area he was trying to wrap around.
The techniques may not come from the ving tsun system but IMO ving tsun has made me react quicker than I use to and that’s the key.
See this is where I draw the line with containing the prescribed technique from a particular style. You don’t know how ridiculous it sounds asking what “wing chun technique to use during a bear hug”. Why not just, what technique does work during a bear hug?
I tell my training partners and friends, and I live by this myself, to use whatever works at the time it’s needed. In “real” fights, you don’t have time to pick and choose, making sure it comes from a prescribed style or whatever. I’m sure the wing chun gods won’t get angry if you use something not in their forms to keep yourself from getting pummeled or killed.
Dave and the others pretty much already asked the pertinant questions, as far as details as to what type of bear hug, arms in or out, belly to belly or belly to back, grounded or not etc…
The best thing for grappling in general is to try and sense the hold coming on either just before or as it’s happening. That maximizes your chances for escape. I guess in terms of wing chun this would be just like the idea of attacking the attack before it has time to materialize. (IE moving in on a kick or punch at it’s inception to dilute it’s effectiveness)
Second, once you’re there, there are many things you can do…all dependant on your position relative to his. Headbutts to the nose always work well, if your grounded maiming techniques (foot stomps, groin attacks, headbutts) can work to soften up the hold before applying a “break” of it. Hell, I was once in a bear hug and only had time to bring my elbow to the inside point, turned it out so that the elbow point was towards the opponent (this was belly to belly) and everytime he tried to squeeze, he pushed my elbow point into his zyphoid process. Worked like a charm until I headbutted him and he dropped me.
So there are so many things, you have to act instinctively, and not care where the technique comes from. Do what you have to do to survive, once out…use wing chun chain punching all you want.
I agree that whatever comes out in the street, comes out in the street. But it’s nice to practise things in the kwoon. Lots of different approaches to the attack with many different partners. I would think that would give you more ‘options’ than just having whatever come out in a real situation.
I agree that you need to ‘strike first, strike hard, no mercy Sir.’ Use whatever tools you have and don’t stop till they pop or drop. Oops, that’s the heimlich.
What is the purpose of the “bear hug”? Does he eventually have to let you go before trying something else? If it’s face to face… how about spitting, not normally a bonafide MA technique but can be effective. From behind I agree with Vankuen a head butt with the back of your head. If your a woman maybe wear large hair pins that have sharp points… maybe a heal stomp? If you cant touch the ground dig your heal into his shin? (could be hard to do if the guy has a large belly… depends on the situation I guess)
But I agree that the use of your Wing Chun should be applied prior to getting yourself into that position would be the most effect course of action.
The “bear hug” can be used to basically draw the breath right out of you, hold you for some one else to hit you, or simply to stop you from doing anything. And assuming the person doing it is very big and strong, then he could literally crush you should the ability be there. I’ve heard of guys getting their backs broken as well. But hey…just hit the guy.
If you’re going to leak enough opportunity to let someone else fully sink a “bear hug”, forget it. It’s just not your lucky day. There won’t be a head behind you to butt, shin to reach, or a face to spit in. The fingers in the “monkey’s paw” grip will be inaccessible. You can look for these leaks if you have time (and should), but holes will be plugged. Still, there are quite a few reasonable avenues in this thread to explore here as to how to stop your leaks and recover from the impending doom before it happens.
If they know what they are doing, someone with a fully sunk standing body lock on you is going to show you the pleasures of experiencing a sweep, trip, or break fall and what it’s like to be squashed on landing. Or, if they really, really, know what they are doing, you’ll have the unforgettable sensation of flying via a suplay or salto. (Fasten your seatbelt. It’s going to be a bumpy landing. Objects may have shifted in flight. :D)
So, what in your VingTsun have you been taught that can help you deal with this scenario? The same thing your opponent learned in his training: ways to manage and minimize pain. (You are learning to deal with that in your class, right? ;))
He did. The man’s name is Mak Po. How did Yip Man handle it? By convincing Mak Po to become his student.
Can anyone else claim their KungFu is that good?
(I must be hearing the call of 300 posts or something. I suppose that’s not too outlandish of an expression of hot air after four years of tongue wagging. :)).
Very true TK. I forgot to mention the impending throw or takedown that could come of it as well. I was assuming they were talking about the standing bear hug in and of itself.
As far as what Yip man did or didn’t do…doesn’t matter. Nothing can really be subtantiated with absolute certainty, ESPECIALLY with wing chun history with all the crap the lineages are throwing around…and we don’t need any more talk of that BS. Besides…what Yip Man did makes no real difference on your exploration of it today.
Defending against a locked rear bear hug is the same as defending against a already connected punch on the nose!
It depends on who is holding you in the bear hug just like on who was throwing the punch.
It is always better to be a step ahead in both cases.
See this is where I draw the line with containing the prescribed technique from a particular style. You don’t know how ridiculous it sounds asking what “wing chun technique to use during a bear hug”. Why not just, what technique does work during a bear hug?
I agree with this.
I also think you have to really do some work and experimentation against progressively faster and more tightly applied bear hugs in the kwoon, to see what actually DOES work, and (I think you’ll find) when it’s too late and you’re going to have to wear the result. Knowing techniques and theory is no substitute for empirical experience against people really trying to get that bearhug.
If the guy puts you in a bear hug and then just lets you go to hit you, he’s a moron. Running you into a wall or pillar, hip hoist and drop to to the ground, preferably festooned with hard and pointy objects, or a rear suplex onto the edge a table or chair, would be my favorite follow ups.
Anyone who knows how a proper bear hug works will place their forehead on your back, making headbutts and elbows impossible. The same thing is true from the front, you just dig your head into the side of their neck.
I was taught by my sifu, and this is if the technique of the bear hug is already applied to you from the back. Drop your weight, post on one leg, use the other leg to gain some kind of distance or attack (kicking to his knees whatever). This is also assuming they have your arms bound down your sides with their grip.
This is just one answer. Another answer would be to just not get bear hugged.
Is it wing chun? I suppose thats debateable. Does it work? Yes
My sifu who teaches me wing chun taught me this…
There is no definate answer a system can give you. The system of martial arts you train gives you ideas and concepts to work off of and find your own answer.
You don’t know how ridiculous it sounds asking what “wing chun technique to use during a bear hug”. Why not just, what technique does work during a bear hug?
Maybe I am missing something here, but maybe because this is a “WING CHUN” Forum?!?!?!?! And this is what most people here study and would like an answer from their style. If this was a mixed martial art forum your statement would possibly be relevant but in a “system” particular forum, not a so ridiculous question. Besides if you aren’t looking into your own style, why are you training in it for any answers?!?!?!?!
And though I agree with you on that you should use what works for you in the street, you still need to train in the kwoon your reaction, proper techniques etc. to whatever it is you find effective. Or there would be no reason to train anything at all, you would just use whatever came out and worked at that time. But in the case your training hasn’t answered those questions yet…sure use whatever comes out, and don’t worry about the as mentioned “Wing Chun Gods”.
You know, it just occurred to me (DOH!): The instructor is the one sinking the standing body lock. What did he say to do? Is he just interested in setting up the salto or what? :eek:
I understand your point of view and certainly see its value. However,
I once was in the middle of a conversation where someone was telling me about some bar fight where he had to come to the aid of his friend. He was telling me about how his used “this technique from <abc>” then “that technique from <xyz>” and asked me what the proper Ving Tsun response would be.
I said: “The proper Ving Tsun response??? You’re studying to be a Doctor for chrissake!! Ving Tsun should teach you to find a new friend who won’t put you in that situation and who’ll whoop your ass if you ever do that to him.”
He fell silent for about five seconds, then asked if he could show me what he did in the fight. I smiled and said “sure.”
I’ve met Mak Po. If he chose to glob on to you, the only people who have a shot at getting away would be younger and/or stronger and/or healthier versions of himself. He has literally used peoples’ bodies as a wrecking ball in rooms where he either got annoyed at someone or he just didn’t like the decor. (Now that I think about it, he’s a lot like my brother-in-law. :D) Skill - VingTsun or otherwise - is, in my SWAG estimation, barely an eighth of what it takes to “deal” with a person like that, even if we restrict it to the realm of a confrontation.
When you finally meet your younger, faster, and more skilled Greco Roman incantation of “Mak Po”, and you manage to jam yourself up, you can certainly find out if all the things you envisioned will work would actually make the cut or not. But, I’m going to see if I have enough of what it takes to that person my friend so he keeps coming back. All the other stuff should take care of itself if I can do that.
And hey, if I can get my “Mak Po” to pay to help keep the door open and a roof over our head, and care enough about the others around to “bear hug” them too, even better! It takes a lot more KungFu to achieve this - for him and for me - than to merely spit and head butt.
That’s all I meant by my response to YungChun.
(Yeah, I’ve definitely fallen into a gravitational pull. 300 posts or bust!)
I meant that aside from the obvious fact that we’re on a wing chun forum. I just think that people sometimes tend to lose sight they they are individuals, they don’t think beyong their system when need be because they feel the system has an answer for everything…which it doesn’t. The answers that make work however (though not specficially addressing the question at hand, can be transposed amongst many styles and therefore are no longer unique to the style. It’s like looking for algebra answers in an english book.
My training has taken me beyond looking for answers in places they cannot be found. Perhaps you should open your mind a little and not be slave to dogma.
