[QUOTE=Knifefighter;778917]I’ve heard that quite a bit and here’s my beef with that… no one can ever demonstrate under live conditions the old method of kicking.[/QUOTE]
Not sure it’s all about the ‘old style kicks’… The original style was more like Shotokan which has a more balanced emphasis on the use of hands and feet, indeed, if I am not mistaken, Tae Kwon means hands and feet…
The problem with Shotokan and TKD sport vs. the original style is that the growth and application used in and by these styles has been for a specialized kind of sport fighting. Much of this sport fighting and change in application came about after the new era in some Japanese systems that happened after WWII. Some call this the Japanification of these combative forms of fighting into sport forms of fighting or in some cases just for exercise in public schools. It is after this time you see the arrival of the “do” systems <way>, as opposed to the Jitsu <combat> systems from which they came.. Some systems noted for having undergone this change are Karate Do, AikiDo and JuDo.. The latter being the gentle system maintained much of the intent of the older forms because many of the moves could be used as is, as they were not that destructive, eg choking/throwing vs. bashing, breaking, maiming/killing… The more destructive forms and methods died out for lack of use, in sport, and in some cases in order to maintain system secrecy.
To this day it is difficult to determine the effectiveness of the original systems, however it has become more known that some of the older masters of these systems withheld much of the true art from the public, even to the point of teaching techniques intentionally incorrectly to public students.
This may help to explain why many of these arts have died or are dying out, in conjunction with other modern factors such as greed/money and to make these arts more palatable for public consumption…
[QUOTE=YungChun;778927]The problem with Shotokan and TKD sport vs. the original style is that the growth and application used in and by these styles has been for a specialized kind of sport fighting. [/QUOTE]
In my mind, this argument was put to rest twice. First by Kano’s judo vs. jiujutsu challenge matches in the 1800’s. The second with the Gracie challenge of the 80’s and 90’s. Both of these saw sports styles dominating “combat” styles.
I don’t think too many people would argue that some of the most effective styles (BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Muay Thai, Kyoshikin, and boxing) are sports styles.
I would argue that if you want to find make your style as effective as possible, develop a competition aspect to it and make that competition aspect as unrestrictive as possible.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;778932]
In my mind, this argument was put to rest twice. First by Kano’s judo vs. jiujutsu challenge matches in the 1800’s.
[/quote]
The point I made was about a phenomina that occured at the end of WWII.. This proccess and policy is a fact and ALL Japanese arts of war were changed due to this new policy… The intent of this policy was to take the war out of the war arts..
Did you know that old style ‘Judo’ had striking in it?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;778932]
I don’t think to many people would argue that some of the most effective styles (BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Muay Thai, Kyoshikin, and boxing) are sports styles.[/QUOTE]
Yes, however the intent in these sport styles was not to take the martial out of the sport, whereas this WAS the intent in the case of the Japanification of the Japanese styles…eg no contact fighting, etc…Big difference…
You said yourself that folks cannot show the old way.. This is what happened to the old WAY… it went by the WAYside…
[QUOTE=YungChun;778934]Yes, however the intent in these sport styles was not to take the martial out of the sport, whereas this WAS the intent in the case of the Japanification of the Japanese styles…eg no contact fighting, etc…Big difference…[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;778935]TKD is not Japanese.[/QUOTE]
The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens…
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;778837] We’ve all heard that MT has most powerful kicks, but people like Benny Urquidez, Tadashi Nakamura, and even TWC Sifu Keith Mazza have fought them on their own turf and won.[/QUOTE]
Benny Urquidez has never won in Thailand.
I’d love to see the Thai that Keith Mazza took on. He’s not exactly in the weight range of a lot of Thai boxers.
Having said that. People have taken on Thais in Thailand and won many times. Doesn’t mean Thais aren’t good kickers or that other styles are bad kickers.
I’ve seen plenty of TKD stylists in MT matches and KICKING is not the problem. They are usually more than adequate in the kicking department.
[QUOTE=YungChun;778936]The forms are almost identical to the Shotokan forms and the arts underwent similar changes/origens…[/QUOTE]
Correct! General Choi Hong Hi, who created Taekwondo, actually studied and taught Shotokan karate in Japan for a while.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;778935]TKD is not Japanese.[/QUOTE]
If you omit the nationalistic revisions of martial history in Korea which is opposed to the slightest japanese influence in that field, TKD’s origin is Karate. A light reasearch on the matter and talking to koreans that aren’t into nationalistic crap will get you to that conclusion especially if they trained in old style TKD.
Sorry for the thread drift.
Back to lurking…
PS: Props for the “we are idiots thread”, and thank you for your thought provoking comments.
[QUOTE=YungChun;778934]The point I made was about a phenomina that occured at the end of WWII.. This proccess and policy is a fact and ALL Japanese arts of war were changed due to this new policy… The intent of this policy was to take the war out of the war arts..
Did you know that old style ‘Judo’ had striking in it?[/QUOTE]I have been reading a bit about judo with a view to getting into it. Some clubs/organizations still train the striking skills (atemi waza) in their forms (kata), but I don’t believe strikes are trained in randori (resistive partnered sparring/practice) and used in shiai (competition).
We shouldnt really be making broad generalisations on the subject of the strongest kicks.
One could argue, that the trend tends to be that Thai exponents have heavier kicks. But we all know its up to the individuals who train in these methods and not necessarily the style.
When thinking about this one must recognise that in Thailand especially, fighters are training as a way of life. No fight…no money. And in a lot of cases fighters are supporting big families.
Conversly TKD in the western world seems to be regarded like alot of other fighting styles as a hobbie. No one really does it as a way of life or for survival etc…
Although, if you went to Korea looking for TKD fighters, you may find some guys (perhaps full time soldiers as they train TKD in the army,so im told) who break the mold persay - on your views of TKD’s power.
i dont’ know how it get into the subject of strong kick… coz its irrelevant… i mean whether you get hit by a car or a bus, does it freaking matter.. your still gonna die.
As for the thai kick, if you can do tae kwon do kicks, you can do a thai kick, the mechanics aren’t much different. and tae kwon do kicks are much more difficult to do in terms of athleticism.
the point, of the video regarding strong kick, is that you don’t want to do techinques that might work in school that won’t work in real life… i see peopel all the time trying to absorb the blunt of the force in the kick… and the fact that most people don’t know how to kick is fortunate for them… but when you run into someone who can really lay the smack on the kick, its a world of hurt.
[QUOTE=edward;779136]i see peopel all the time trying to absorb the blunt of the force in the kick… and the fact that most people don’t know how to kick is fortunate for them… but when you run into someone who can really lay the smack on the kick, its a world of hurt.[/QUOTE]This is so true. I once saw someone teaching to absorb a roundhouse kick using what I would describe as a double tan. Sorry, but I hope that they have full dental coverage because they’re going to eat that kick if they try to do that. I trained TKD and also kickboxing for several years and have been on the giving and receiving end of some solid kicks. It’s just too easy to underestimate a powerful kick a come up with half-baked counter.
I’m looking forward to Part II.
[QUOTE=Lugoman;779064]The Naihanchi Katas turn up in Tang So Do, almost verbatim. :eek:[/QUOTE]
Well Tang So Do is korean pronounciation of the earlier method of writing “Karate-do”. They never stated it wasn’t originated from karate.
Most TKD guys with their head straight would say the same.
[QUOTE=Liddel;779131]
Conversly TKD in the western world seems to be regarded like alot of other fighting styles as a hobbie. No one really does it as a way of life or for survival etc…
[/QUOTE]
Also your typical TKD tournament can get quite a few competitors. With round robin pools before semi’s, You could have five matches or more if you manage to keep progressing through. Each match has 3 two minute rounds with a possible fourth tie breaker. And you basically have to kick all the time. And no low kicks.
That’s pretty tiring. You aren’t going to be throwing power kicks all the time. You’d be spent. There’s still a fair bit of power behind their kicks though.
[QUOTE=Edmund;779149]
That’s pretty tiring. You aren’t going to be throwing power kicks all the time. You’d be spent. [/QUOTE]
Not to mention all the jumping on the spot ive seen in TKD compittions, yes you may be ready to launch a kick quickly but it does seem to require more energy than just stepping and moving keeping mobile…that would also tire you quickly.
From my own VT perspective. I never use only one hand to block a kick intentionally. Only if i didnt see it coming and/or expect it at the time.. and i just cover myself in a last ditch effort to survive a flurry, like basic head guard cover etc…
IME Double Guarn Sao as ive seen some schools do, is just to risky against a heavy kicker, its too much, direct force against force. Also if your position is out and you recieve the force on or even near your elbow…ouch possible broken limb.
In a perfect situation i cover with a Quan Sao variation.
Bong and Wu Sao using both arms as a touch point for contact.
IME its more stable and doesnt crumble under heavy preasure.
Two points are quite important for me when doing this action.
1 - Footwork. I micro step into the kick cutting the power by not letting it reach full extension, which makes your body more dynamic in movement and adds more resistance. And…
2- Inch/ Tourqing power. The effect of your turning forarms into the attack dissipates some force back into the kickers leg and lets some force go away from your body.
In my VT though, during my experience sparring with friends that do MT, the most common block ive used is similar to the MT block, jaust raising the leg with a tiny little In to outside movement. Right out of my CK form.
[QUOTE=Liddel;779158]In my VT though, during my experience sparring with friends that do MT, the most common block ive used is similar to the MT block, jaust raising the leg with a tiny little In to outside movement. Right out of my CK form.[/QUOTE]Did I write this?!
Same here. Tan gerk or bong gerk, straight from CK, which if you don’t overexagerrate (bad sp day) them amount to pretty much the same as a MT leg check.
I once saw a TKD brown belt break the face plate on the Anzen Bogu equipment during a full contact tournament back in the early 80’s. Suffice to say the guy’s face would have been pretty messed up thereafter were the face plate not there.
There was a KO from a spinning hook kick in the TKD in the last Olympics. Through the head gear and all. And we all know how powerless that kick is, don’t we?
The rules make for an arguably unrealistic fighting style, but don’t kid yourself that those guys can’t kick hard.
My friend, co-worker and fu student is a taekwondo teacher (maybe sandan). He kicks like a mule, and fast and accurate too. And he’s teaching me!
The way all TKD kicks go through the centreline is nicely matched to WC (that’s about it for points of similarity though the TKD side kick is very much like a wing chun side kick from a high bong gerk), plus the fact that they’d surprise the hell out of most chunners I’ll be sparring!
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;779178]Same here. Tan gerk or bong gerk, straight from CK, which if you don’t overexagerrate (bad sp day) them amount to pretty much the same as a MT leg check.[/QUOTE]Hey M, may I ask where do you have tan gerk and bong gerk in your CK? I don’t have them in either of the versions I know.
Two good kickboxers with TKD backgrounds are Kamal El Amrani and Serkan Yilmaz.
El Amrani used to fight in European Superleague.
Yilmaz was in a few Japanese K1 Max events and more recently A1.
Both of them have some spectacular seriously hard spinning kicks that have KOed people.
