http://youtube.com/watch?v=arr6IB4krtc
some video on kicks and wing chun
Did you make the video?
I would suggest doing some research doing research about what people do, research on your own. He was very adamant on the Karate/TKD style round kicking vrs the Thai style. Which is more popular… well I would say 10 years ago maybe the karate, but today its the thai. I don’t believe the difference should be really important. I would suggest training against the Thai kick since it is much more powerful. If you have someone who just doesn’t throw the kick but sets it up.. you really don’t see it coming till its almost too late.
Honestly thai style kicks generate more power than you were kicking.. That being said MANY counters exist for any style round kick. It really depends on how the person is using it. A Gan sao for a karate style kick its really not that bad. Remmber that you are not just standing and holding your hands up. You are sitting in your horse and you should have moved and aligned your arms in a way that help to take the impact. I don’t suggest purposely countering a thai style round kick with a gan sao. Its not impossible.. but you need to really train it and its still not a great idea.
other counters that I know of ..
Bong/qwan/tan lan gerk.. not the way you blocked it. If you turn and jam into the kick and cover your whole body. It really looks like the thai style of blocking a round kick but you cover more.
You can also block a “high” round kick to your head, with a jamming tan sao (also using your horse), and kick the standing leg.
you can also kick the kicking leg…
these last two are much harder to do and honestly if he throws it in a good combination I don’t think I could pull them off.
If its a high round kick a solid qwan sao can stop it. Even a nice thai kick.
you must realize that the horse or “structure”, timing and reaction must all be used. I rarely see Wing Chun people handle these style kicks outside of Applied Wing Chun and Lo man Kam. I only see people run in and chain punch or do some kind of bad structure block that takes all the impact. Running in.. may work, because its a simple straight line vrs curve but.. you must really be fast and you can’t really guarantee that.. I would be willing to bet money that 9/10 times its not going to happen. (for reasons you can’t predict)
ok JMO I am sure 20 people will know say that running in chain punching is the best option.
I am not going to say my way is better, I just have had better results.
The clip seems to be more about what other people do than what WC does. Seems like a waste of time since you are a WC person.
[QUOTE=monji112000;778752] I would suggest training against the Thai kick since it is much more powerful. If you have someone who just doesn’t throw the kick but sets it up.. you really don’t see it coming till its almost too late.
[/QUOTE]
That was the point that was actually made in the video.
[QUOTE=monji112000;778752]
I don’t suggest purposely countering a thai style round kick with a gan sao. Its not impossible.. but you need to really train it and its still not a great idea.
[/QUOTE]
That was also stated in the video.
Edward said it was not a great idea.
[QUOTE=monji112000;778752]
other counters that I know of ..
[snip]
these last two are much harder to do and honestly if he throws it in a good combination I don’t think I could pull them off.
[/QUOTE]
I agree.
[QUOTE=monji112000;778752]
Running in.. may work, because its a simple straight line vrs curve but.. you must really be fast and you can’t really guarantee that.. I would be willing to bet money that 9/10 times its not going to happen. (for reasons you can’t predict)
[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
[QUOTE=monji112000;778752]
ok JMO I am sure 20 people will know say that running in chain punching is the best option.
I am not going to say my way is better, I just have had better results.
The clip seems to be more about what other people do than what WC does. Seems like a waste of time since you are a WC person.[/QUOTE]
Well it seems like that was only Part 1. So I assume there’s more to follow.
Also it did mention a lot of “what WC could do wrongly”.
I think the clip made some good points that hopefully will be expanded on.
I honestly if you are going to make a point about whats most people do and most people are going to throw a thai style kick.. saying that most people bring the kick to the center first like you demostroated is flat out wrong. The more distance the kick covers the more power. The fact that it slow and leaves you open is negated with the fact that its thrown in a combination.
given the prevelence of thai boxing in MMA and american culture if you see a round kick prepare for a worst case probability of a powerful thai kick. That way if you have someone who throws a karate style kick that comes to the center first and snaps.. you won’t really have anything to worry about.
I am interested in what part 2 will be like.
a good thai match , for research purposes…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nRWTdl2Q5q8
no comment
if that video is your idea of what good is and power, then there’s really no point in replying back… i’d argue jessica alba is pretty, you’d probably say rossie odonnel is hotter…
It’s not all about seeing technique A and then applying counter move B… In reality this is often too slow, although not always.. One of the keys to dealing with an attack like a fast kick is learning to read the body language of the opponent and also being very sensitive to range and timing.
There are certain times you do not need to see the kick coming but rather, knowing when you are vulnerable to such an attack can help you pre-empt the attack with you’re own… So, you don’t wait for them to kick, YOU kick, or otherwise take the correct action, attack, change position, angle, etc as his attack manifests. After a while you will know and feel when he should attack and then, just as you become vulnerablechange/attack/counter and enter
Knowing when and what we are vulnerable to and developing this sense of timing and distance is best learned by making mistakes and getting nailed over and over again. After a while, and with some work, youll develop sensitivity to the opponents attacks and how to use them against him.
And as far as going inside, that’s where the party is–all the other stuff is just a knock on the door…
given the prevelence of thai boxing in MMA and american culture if you see a round kick prepare for a worst case probability of a powerful thai kick. That way if you have someone who throws a karate style kick that comes to the center first and snaps..
I’ve talked to a couple of MMA coaches, one of whom also teaches MT, who recommend the knee-in first round kick. I’ve got an SBG DVD where the Atlanta MT coach also recommends this. The other style is vulnerable to takedowns (Sakuraba vs Vanderlei Silva for example - Silva won the match but still got single-legged mid thai kick).
You can’t necessary fight the way you do in an MT match and expect it all to work in MMA. Throwing multiple skip knees is another example - you can EXPECT to be taken down if the guy has decent defense and clinch skills.
MT don’t have the franchise on powerful round kicks either - Kyokushinkai also have really hard round kicks, which have different mechanics.
american culture
Not all of us live in America, sport.
[QUOTE=anerlich;778777]I’ve talked to a couple of MMA coaches, one of whom also teaches MT, who recommend the knee-in first round kick. I’ve got an SBG DVD where the Atlanta MT coach also recommends this. [/QUOTE]
Knee in first, as in the knee up middle followed by a turn of the leg with a snap like was shown on that first clip? I don’t think you’ll find too many MMA or MMA fighters doing that… you will see that mostly from TKD stylists.
[QUOTE=edward;778769]if that video is your idea of what good is and power, then there’s really no point in replying back… i’d argue jessica alba is pretty, you’d probably say rossie odonnel is hotter…[/QUOTE]
Those are just kids… look to be about 14 or 15. Even then, I guarantee those are punishing kicks, although they probably only weigh about a hundred pounds each.
Have you ever fought a Muay Thai fighter full contact? The first time I did, my leg was so swollen I literally couldn’t put on my jeans for two weeks afterwards. Get in the ring with a competitive MT guy… I think you will change your mind.
As far as blocking the kicks, why not just use the MT method? Simple, direct and proven effectiveness. Not to mention that you can pretty much seemlessly incorporate them into just about any style.
[QUOTE=monji112000;778767]I honestly if you are going to make a point about whats most people do and most people are going to throw a thai style kick.. saying that most people bring the kick to the center first like you demostroated is flat out wrong. The more distance the kick covers the more power. The fact that it slow and leaves you open is negated with the fact that its thrown in a combination.
[/QUOTE]
Well it seriously depends on the defence that is being suggested.
If it’s that finnicky that it makes a difference whether he does it thai style or karate style, then it’s going to be too fancy to work.
Edward hasn’t put up his idea yet.
Your ideas of doing a tan sao or kicking the kicking leg you have already acknowledged to be quite difficult.
A qwan sao doesn’t really sound much better IMHO.
[QUOTE=edward;778769]if that video is your idea of what good is and power, then there’s really no point in replying back… i’d argue jessica alba is pretty, you’d probably say rossie odonnel is hotter…[/QUOTE]
first off i was only showing a clip of a thai fight that “looked” more like what you would see if you went into a gym and watched someone train. The over all quality of the fight wasn’t really my concern.
but as a point, those round kicks weren’t soft. Let me guess you kick trees right?
take one to the thigh.. then we can talk.
nobody’s perfect, I am sure you too one day can come here to the USA. If you work hard maybe your dream can come true like so many millions around the world.
I didn’t say Thai style kicking was the only powerful or the most powerful I simply said its the most common.
can’t comment on SBG or Silva i never watched them do a kick like that. I will say I have seen many of Silva’s fights and I have visited a SBG they both use the “thai” method of kick. NOT the snapping method.
LOL at monji criticizing the guy for his intro vid… we haven’t even seen what he’s going to do yet.
I thought it was good work, and sure, yeah, a good outward Thai roundhouse is dangerous (and I’d argue pretty much covers the middle any way because it’s fast and untelegraphed and because of the angle it finishes up at) but I liked the vid guy’s style of presentation and it’s nice to see people putting stuff up for free, and I’m looking forward to his next one.
Dream of living in America? You’re still dreaming pal!
[QUOTE=edward;778745]http://youtube.com/watch?v=arr6IB4krtc
some video on kicks and wing chun[/QUOTE]
Hi Ed, I haven’t had a desire to post here for a long time but…
Posting clips on any martial arts group will draw all sorts of criticism usually from people who have none of their own to show. The modern Thai boxing done in Thailand now is not the original Muay Boran of ancient times that taught weapons and other aspects of combat.
In fact, teachers of the old Thai styles don’t like the modern Muay Thai “sport” saying it’s become involved with corruption, gambling, vice, and has lost many fighting techniques.
Since it’s become a “sport” kicks to the groin are not allowed so wide round kick are used attain crowd pleasing knock outs. Spinning back fists, spinning kicks, and haymakers are also powerful since they build up momentum but are not very efficient in reaching the target. We’ve all heard that MT has most powerful kicks, but people like Benny Urquidez, Tadashi Nakamura, and even TWC Sifu Keith Mazza have fought them on their own turf and won. I have not evidence of this but I’ve heard stories that a Wing Chun stylist from HK has beaten a MT fighter. I sparred with two MT people when I was training with Yoel Judah back in NY and handled their kicks easily because of my training.
Anyway thanks for sharing that clip. It takes cojones putting yourself out there. I wanted to do the same thing you did so I started a group a while back to share fighting ideas.
It’s a place where WC people could discuss WC fighting and no politics. It started to degenerated into trash talking like most forums but that won’t be happen again. Since Sifu Cheung is here with us in NJ we’ve been concentrating on fighting using WC techniques and principles. We have some upcoming full contact event also and I’ve added some clips of our training The only requirement for group membership is that people use their real names and upload a picture to show that a member isn’t some 13 year old boy saying he is a cage fighter with 20 wins. 
Everyone will have to post a clip of themselves doing something. It doesn’t have to be of you in a MMA event,or sparring match. It can be a demo of chi sau or a technique, anything. This way people aren’t so apt to criticize others.
Obviously the group will be small because most won’t put themselves out there like you did Ed. In fact though he’s not active, Dale (Knifefighter) is also a member. He’s put himself out there on video and I respect that.
Here’s the link:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wckcg/
[QUOTE=edward;778745]http://youtube.com/watch?v=arr6IB4krtc
some video on kicks and wing chun[/QUOTE]
Oh, I forgot to say that the clip was right on point and I’m showing it to my guys as as reference.
Phil
I am sure you too one day can come here to the USA. If you work hard maybe your dream can come true like so many millions around the world.
I’ve been there. Let’s just say I’m happier living where I do.
hey phil
Phil, you know people debating whether thai kicks are stronger then tae kwon do or karate kicks… is just wasted time on my part, dealing with them, so i just let em post and enjoy their own writing.
THanks for the offer, I’ll take a look.
another thing
also forgot to mention… people look at tae kwon do kicks today.. well guess what the kicks that they do, is olympic style for point sparring… actual fighting, is way different, but most people only train point style with the kicks of today
[QUOTE=edward;778916]also forgot to mention… people look at tae kwon do kicks today.. well guess what the kicks that they do, is olympic style for point sparring… actual fighting, is way different, but most people only train point style with the kicks of today[/QUOTE]
I’ve heard that quite a bit and here’s my beef with that… no one can ever demonstrate under live conditions the old method of kicking.
well
well you need to get out more