Wing Chun: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

THE GOOD:

Great system that features a real yin and yang, hard and soft approach to fighting… and a simplicity and economy of motion…leading to some explosive and powerful close range strikes/kicks that primarily target vulnerable areas of the head, face, throat, temple, groin, knees, etc…while also teaching how to deflect and/or avoid the opponent’s force and energy with moves that can unbalance and redirect his force and his body…very economical lines of attack coupled with some small circular blocks and redirections - along with a basically straight line triangular attack and defense strategy - which makes ingenious use of a centerline theory…vertical line running down the middle of WC practitioner’s body and toward the center of the opponent’s body (some wing chun systems also expand this theory into a wider centraline concept)…all of which fits neatly into a tightly structured six gate theory of defense with very economical straight (and therefore) fast lines of simultaneous (or near simultaneous) attack and defense with both hands/arms working together at all times…great training tool that cultivates close quarter contact reflexes (chi sao) as well as providing a platform to learn the basic and most fundamental moves in the system (beginning with - but not limited to - tan, bong, fuk)…limited and therefore practical use of just a few forms…and the first SLT form (along with chi sao and some chi gung breathing excercises) also providing a platform to cultivate a “practical” use of internal energy dynamics (chi)…which helps teach a very relaxed but whip-like approach to power and force generation…very useful and conservative approach to low line kicking from close range - therefore hard to stop because used judiciously…also features use of the legs to stop opponent’s kicks…

as well as some personalities who HAVE proved the effectiveness of the system at various times through real combat (Yip Man, Bruce Lee and some notable others within the 20th century)…as well as some others before them (ie. - the Red Boat era), etc.

Good practical use of two weapons (Butterfly Swords and Long Pole)…other important training devices such as the Wooden Dummy and even iron palm training in some circles for stronger power generation and precision on the strikes…can also provide a practical approach (yin and yang…hard and soft) to a higher philosophy that tends to balance the use of force and energy with non-confrontational methods of solving problems…for the more thoughtful…etc…etc…

2

There is also “Wing Chun:For a fistful of dollars” but that’s another story!..:wink:

Looking forward for the remaining bad and ugly!..:wink:

3

THE BAD

Over reliance on the centerline theory can lead to a very predictable (and easily countered by outflanking and hooking around) attack of straight line chain punching…limited use of footwork (in most Wing Chun systems) that leave it’s practitioners vulnerable to more modern, up-on-your-toes and mobile footwork…over reliance on short range striking/kicking/footwork patterns can lead to problems against a mobile long range striking/kicking attack…and the other side of the coin…those who are skilled at breaking through the short range striking and chin na arm locking wing chun range and into a fight in the clinch - along with various takedowns and groundgrappling that Wing Chun is not prepared to deal with (although wing chun does teach some sweeps and standing takedowns of it’s own)…over reliance on CHI SAO as a training tool that becomes an end-all-and-be-all for FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE WC WORLD…(even to the point of chi sao being the “main event” within wing chun tournaments and get-togethers)…

instead of REAL HARD CONTACT SPARRING…which serves to set almost the entire wing chun world on a path toward irrelevance regarding it’s future as a MARTIAL art…and not an action chess game - as some think it is…not versatile and creative enough (in many circles)…to adapt some more circular strikes and kicks…some more mobile, evasive and elusive footwork and DELIVERY SYSTEMS - along with some longer range attacks…as well as some other fighting “methods” just alluded to for clinch and grappling ranges…

TOO MUCH chest beating of a very subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) nature that leads to illusions of false grandeur…one of the biggest being that in MANY (if not most) wing chun circles STRENGTHENING, CONDITIONING, STRETCHING, and the use of pads, mitts, shields, bags, etc. AS A MEANS OF DEVELOPING POWER ON THE STRIKES AND KICKS is downplayed…false claims based upon little or no real fighting/sparring against skilled resisting opponents of wing chun AND OTHER SYSTEMS…

over reliance on the exploits of Bruce Lee and one’s sifu…or one’s wing chun “ancestors” that amounts to little more than living VICARIOUSLY…trying to ride the wave that others may (or may not) have created…without having to do the REAL HARD WORK themselves…

4

THE UGLY

Ridiculous claims made back in the 70’s by Leung Ting that he was Yip Man’s final disciple and apparent heir…And in the 80’s - William Cheung not offering what is clearly a different system than what Yip man taught publicly…not offering it up to his peers GRATIS…instead making the claim that HE was Yip Man’s apparent heir..and that everybody else now had to agree that he was the one and only Grandmaster…without adequately explaining exactly where TWC came from…the HFY people - notably Garrett Gee and Benny Meng - doing a very similar thing in the 90’s…but with a new twist…saying that HFY is the ONLY wing chun system that can trace it’s roots back to the Shaolin temple - without offering any real proof either…Emin Boztepe’s attack on William Cheung in Germany in 1986 after surrounding him with about a 1/2 dozen of his friends…the incidents in my school and Andrew Draheim’s school (literally five feet away from each other) in New York City in 1996 - wherein I was arrested for assault - and had to hire a lawyer and appear in court 5 times…and last but not least (in my mind, anyway)…the ugly shouting match on a thread this past summer mostly between myself and Dhira (KenWingJitsu)…concerning Boztepe possibly fighting TWC’s Keith Mazza.

I’m sorry it happened.

But in the final analysis…I believe that Wing Chun is a great fighting system whose exponents and lineages need to spend more time getting together for real sparring tournaments…wherein participants shake hands before and after the matches…learn from each other…sort out what works and what doesn’t work…regardless of which WC system it came from…

and then do some crosstraining and send a bunch of guys out into the world of MMA events to kick some a$$.

5

I don’t remember the last time I read a post and agreed with every part of it.

Good posts.

6

Yep…that about sums it up.

7

Insert smug sarcastic voice

[well that might be true for your wing chun, but not all wing chun is created equal, and I know people and my sifu says, and if you really traced the roots back to the wing chun cave man you would see and I don’t care because my sifu can fly, um I have never seen him do it but he is God reincarnated so he must be able to fly, and it’s all because he localized his chi during SLT, so there , now let me get right up here in my arm chair and point my finger at you buddy ]

Way to real for the masses Victor!
:smiley:

but I liked it :wink:

8

Victor,

HFY has always publicly stated that all Wing Chun comes from Shaolin. Whether it be via Ng Mui or their own lineage history. In MKF we even write about Chi Sim’s Shaolin history.

So obviously your ugly post is incorrect.

If you ever get a chance to read the TWC section on the HFY108 site, you will also find alot of posts regarding TWC’s Shaolin connection in particular.

Regarding our similarities… we’ve already been down that road before.

And you have yet to actually experienced both TWC and HFY firsthand.

Many other TWC practioners have, and do not hold the same views you do.

9

“So obviously your ugly post is incorrect.”

Well…I was expecting something like this…but I really don’t care anymore.

It doesn’t change anything.

People know what happened back in the 90’s…and what impression was intended.

Just come to the tournaments WHEN THEY FINALLY EMERGE…take part…or just watch - and leave with some new and important insights.

In the end that’s all that matters.

As to the rest of you who’ve posted so far…thanks!

10

a great song!

Do you know where you¡¦re going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know…?

Do you get
What you¡¦re hoping for
When you look behind you
There¡¦s no open door
What are you hoping for?
Do you know…?

Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds
You knew how I loved you
But my spirit was free
Laughin¡¦ at the questions
That you once asked of me

Do you know where you¡¦re going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know…?

Now looking back at all we¡¦ve planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands
Why must we wait so long
Before we¡¦ll see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be

Do you know where you¡¦re going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you
Where are you going to?
Do you know…?

Do you get
What you¡¦re hoping for
When you look behind you
There¡¦s no open door
What are you hoping for?
Do you know…?

11

Thanks for your thoughts, Victor. I enjoyed reading.

12

Parlati Sifu,
You would appear to have more of a direct connection to the “ugly” than most so it is hard to criticize you as you reflect in the mirror but it is easier to stand at the pulpit and look nice than it is to deliver words of meaningful intent or moreover actions of inegrity, so what have you done for Wing Chun in the last 29 years that wasn’t “ugly”?

13

Well…I was expecting something like this…but I really don’t care anymore.

'twas as predictable as gravity, Victor, I’m just surprised it took as long as it did.

14

You would appear to have more of a direct connection to the “ugly” than most

Don’t sell yourself short, Tony.

15

Not to worry Andrew you are still in the running for the Down under version.

16

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]“So obviously your ugly post is incorrect.”

Well…I was expecting something like this…but I really don’t care anymore.
[/B]

Well… If you don’t care anymore, then why did you make such a post in the first place. Maybe because you were expecting this???

just plain silly attacks Victor…

17

Ha! Ha! I got to hand it down to Ole Man Hendrik. He does not get tired singing. He keep singing along… And yes I do know where am going. I’m driving to see my family for the next two hours. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving, guys! =)

18

There’s enough blame to go around…guys.

I just want to see WING CHUN…as a totality…take it’s rightful place in the martial arts world of today.

And by that I mean as a FIGHTING art that commands respect everywhere within the martial arts world.

Hence my interest in making it more competitive against the highly skilled boxers, kickboxers,Thai boxers, BJJ fighters, wrestlers…whoever…that are out there at the present time and dominating virtually the entire martial art scene.

And I don’t mean just publicity wise (ie.- UFC, Pride, K-1, etc.)…

but more importantly…FOR REAL.

The crosstraining…the tremendous conditioning…the invaluable fighting experience that many are engaging in under the cover of rules, regs, and referees…that results in an ongoing state-of-the-art evolution that gets more amazing to watch all the time (compare the early UFC events of 1993-94-95 to what’s going on in UFC and Pride now, for example). This is REALLY close to reality fighting…and at an increasingly high level of Skill, Will, Strategy, and Technique.

I believe that Wing Chun has a tremendous amount to offer - and I would love to see it participate in the martial arts revolution of today…and really be a PLAYER.

What an incredible addition to the infight table Wing Chun could bring…but it has to do what’s necessary to compete…as I alluded to in THE BAD post.

Just not interested in debating, arguing, calling each other names anymore…my lineage this…your lineage that. William Cheung this…Garrett Gee or Emin Boztepe that.

Valuable time lost…and completely counter-productive to the task at hand.

I said what I said…you guys want to strike back with all sorts of whatever…go ahead.

I’ll take the shots with little more response than what I’m doing now.

Get it out of your system. Take the last word - if you want.

But I’m only willing to talk about what it’s going to take…(imo)…to make the whole Wing Chun “thing” better.

Lookin’ ahead. Only ahead.

The past is yesterday.

19

I just want to see WING CHUN…as a totality…take it’s rightful place in the martial arts world of today.
After all the times you suggested it’s the person not the system does that no longer apply.

20

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]There’s enough blame to go around…guys.

I just want to see WING CHUN…as a totality…take it’s rightful place in the martial arts world of today. …

But I’m only willing to talk about what it’s going to take…(imo)… to make the whole Wing Chun “thing” better.

Lookin’ ahead. Only ahead.

The past is yesterday. [/B]

That is an honest fair post.
How can any one blame on a honest post presenting one own’s view? Cant.