Ok, lets try to discuss Wing Chun potential. We dont need to talk about lineage, or instructors, just what wing chun contains as a potential and what we contain as student sof wingchun.
Everyone is in agreement with the basics? Rooting, sensitivity, structure, and precision? So what does it take to get these things and how do you define them? Why are they important that we work them?
We may find the basics to be boring but do we need to work them all the time? Should we always be working the basics no matter how long or how hard we have been doing WC?
Why is Dan Chi Sau so important or is it? How about SLT? How often should we be doing these things, in the beginning? In the middle? Later in our wing chun lives?
Most would agree that as individuals we can get better by training smarter, but how do we do this? does it matter how much time you spend? how hard you work?
Most would agree that as individuals we can get better by training smarter, but how do we do this? does it matter how much time you spend? how hard you work?
I have a tendency to think too much. So maybe training “dumber” would better suit me LOL!
I try to practice good positioning and lots of repetition so my body will think on its own.
Good questions.
It is all important.
SLT is especially important since everything we do is in there. Our classes are broken up and I still attend the SLT class (it is right before my class) as part of my training it is amazing what you can forget.
Personally I don’t find the basics boring. That is why I attend the SLT class.
I think that time is important to an extent but you can overdo it. Quality time with your Sifu is probably the most important thing. His guidance helps you to train smarter by correcting the little things that we can get wrong. Slow and steady is the way. Go slow learn fast.
One needs to take their time to learn and explore new techniques to progress, not to do something new and then 5 minutes later figure that you have mastered it and proclaim yourself ready to move on or ask to learn something else. I have seen fellow students bored 5 or 10 minutes after being shown something. Consequentely I have seen the light bulb turn on after days or even weeks in fellow students utilizing a certain technique that they had been using and figured they understood, as well as myself. Sometimes it takes longer to understand certain things.
pvwingchun - I have found too that as I practice something, it usually tends to click for me days, weeks, or months later. I read a book called Zen in the Art of Archery and it talks about how somethings just happen of thier own accord and pushing it wont make it happen any faster and can retard the growth process in some cases. thats why I like to focuse more on the foundation type stuff, for instance sensitivity, if I work at that then technique I think becomes natural for you instead of working technique vs technique.
basics
what i consider the basics that you must always focus on and keep getting better at are: staying on center, guarding the center line. always work on footwork-that always makes what ever you are doing better. it is the key to fighting. always work on thrusting forward when your hand is free. always work on your simultanious attack/defence (tan da, gaun da, etc). keep working on your cho ma (sitting horse, turning stance, shifting). always work on your blocks. especially pak, tan, bong, gaun, jam, wu, jut, bil, and lop sau (bong sau and lop da together).
always make sure you do your techniques correctly. be careful not to confuse sturcture with meeting force with force. flow with stuff and shift. having root is good, but its not the be all and end all of w.c. a lot of people make it out to be. train footwork and root equally.
lastly, the most important thing of studying the martial arts is that you evolve as a human being, becoming a better person. more calm, centered, controling your temper, being kind. thats the altimate goal. if you don’t get that then you’ve missed the whole point of training.
Re: basics
Originally posted by wingchunalex
the most important thing of studying the martial arts is that you evolve as a human being, becoming a better person. more calm, centered, controling your temper, being kind. thats the altimate goal. if you don’t get that then you’ve missed the whole point of training.
Hello WCA,
You seem to regard WC as a form of therapy, care to elaborate?
Practice and increasing mastery of the basics and effective employment of the principles must be a a life long pursuit. If your practice lacks a strong foundation, it will forever be ineffective. I guess I am talking about “root” here on a more conceptual level, FWIW.
It is a mistake to see Dan Chi Sao as a precursor to more “advanced” types of chi sao. Dan Chi develops precision using each arm independently. Two hand versions of chi sao practised exclusively can lead to your favoring one side or the other. Dan chi is something the student should continue with for the length of his WC career.
the most important thing of studying the martial arts is that you evolve as a human being, becoming a better person. more calm, centered, controling your temper, being kind
I disagree, indeed I feel that thinking this way is somewhat dangerous. Developing a high level of skill in MA can lead to egotism and pride. There are more than a few examples in WC that most people know about. I have an article on WingChunKuen.com that describes an individual who was a highly skilled martial artist, but was egotistical, manipulative, and with whom association had a negative pshchological impact for many of his students.
CMA takes place in a tradtional cultural atmosphere drawing from Buddhism, Taoism. and Confucianism. Noble paths indeed, but like Christianity and Islam, open to abuse. Cults and those “killing in the name of” abound. There are MA cults too, I used to belong to one.
I agree that those goals are worthy, and that effort should be directed towards them. But MA training in itself is insufficient to ensure you will reach them. You have to do more than that. To think otherwise is to abrogate self-responsibility.
The three MA instructors that have impressed me the most are practical, down to earth types most interested in martial effectiveness without lofty pretensions or an obsession with spiritual purity. All I regard as kind, generous, and moral people of strength and integrity, leading rich and varied lives with much more going on than just training, but none of them make even a minor deal about it, just do it. AS I’ve said, I’ve also met practitioners of freakish martial ability that I regard as total a$$holes.
I don’t want a Sifu that tells me how to think or behave. I have to work that out for myself, and I expect anyone I deal with to grant me the intelligence to allow me to deal with that myself. I face (and occasionally fail) small moral tests every day - like typing this when I’m meant to be working. Nobody’s perfect.
FWIW, I have found MA teaching and student administration better vehicles for learning to deal effectively and ethically with people than personal training. Most people are too inward focused and self obsessed in their early years of training to realise those particular aspects of personal growth.
IMHO
Two hand versions of chi sao practised exclusively can lead to your favoring one side or the other.
You posted this once before and I neglected to ask you about it - so I’m asking now. What’s your reasoning behind this?
Rill, I’m not Anerlich, but…
I would imagine the reasoning is simply that we are all right or left handed and so favour one arm over the other (same with the legs - people tend to kick better off one than the other).
Dan Chi Sau ‘makes’ you work the poorer arm. I guess it’s all about balancing - trying to have equal energy and sensitivity on both arms.
I seem to work Dan Chi Sau a lot these days. Last night I spent half of my class doing nothing but breaking down Bong Sau in DCS.
Good essay, Andrew.
- kj
I agree that Dan Chi sao shouldnt be relegated to beginning training but should be done consistantly throughout your training lifetime. I feel it is a precursor but that it is the foundationd for chi sao, helping to develop sensitivity and precision.
Wing Chun Potential
Hmmm… I think of WC more as method to use our bodies to their potential.
Take our structure for example, regular people only use a small portion power the could have if they had proper structure and body alignment.
And all the other things red mentioned but i have to goo now or ill miss my buss.
What’s your reasoning behind this?
On reconsidering, I guess you COULD reach your potential with the practice of double arm chi sao drills exclusively if you were disciplined.
What I think tends to happen too often though is that people want to get past the “boring” drills and into the “advanced”, freeform rolling with random strikes and other attacks interspersed. Even though you may practise this in both orientations (left bon, right fuk / right bon, left fuk for poon sao, same thing for other variations) it is likely that due to “handedness” you will come to favour certain techniques and combinations in each orientation.
If you take the premise that WC is meant to be a symmetric art, rather than favoring one orientation or the other as Western boxing does (with a few decent exceptions like Marvin Hagler but not many), then this is something to be avoided IMHO.
You could develop those attributes through rigorous drilling of various predetermined or semi-random double arm chi sao drills making sure everything was drilled on both sides equally … but you could also do dan chi sao.
While WC advocates “simultaneous attack and defence”, you need to be able to do this with each limb independently as well as in concert. Dan chi and other one arm drills are assential to develop those skills and attributes.
Lastly, dan chi sao works on microdetail, where two arm drills are more holistic. IMHO effective training requires attention to both aspects.
Anyone have any thoughts regarding the “switchhitter” vs. “orthodox/southpaw” approaches to fighting?
being a better person
The egoism you mentioned is what im talking about. when you see some one who claims to be a true martial artist and acts that way you know that the martial arts are not really part of them. the self discipline you aquire with good training carries over into other areas in your life. I wasn’t talking about nessecarily spirituality. most w.c. people would know about the w.c. rules of conduct i hope. it seems to at least be common amoung yip man people and non yip man people (my school has the same rules of conduct, though its not from yip man and its definately NOT hung fa yi). im not getting all phylisophical about it, but becoming a better person has been a part of every martial arts tradition. just keep it simple. we are all on a journey in w.c. and being a decient human being is part of that. im not going puritan on anybody or anything. Its just that martial arts are not about making a name for yourself like certain w.c. people you see in magazines. sorry for the missunderstanding. its about humility, honesty, hard work.