Check this out and then let’s hear some comments…
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;828560]Check this out and then let’s hear some comments…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A&feature=related[/QUOTE]
its a great idea, I would love to see the same thing but with a boxing and a MT fighter too.
[QUOTE=monji112000;828562]its a great idea, I would love to see the same thing but with a boxing and a MT fighter too.[/QUOTE]
We have boxers including a pro that trains with us. I’ll try to get a video.
Carlson’s WC “experiment” (which was more of a JKD “straight blast” intepretation of WC) came in with a bang with Vitor Belfort’s flash KO of Vanderlei Silva and went out with a whimper because of Vitor’s inability to use it after his initial success, as well as his other fighters not thinking much of it and having more success combining Muay Thai and boxing with their BJJ.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;828582]Carlson’s WC “experiment” (which was more of a JKD “straight blast” intepretation of WC) came in with a bang with Vitor Belfort’s flash KO of Vanderlei Silva and went out with a whimper because of Vitor’s inability to use it after his initial success, as well as his other fighters not thinking much of it and having more success combining Muay Thai and boxing with their BJJ.[/QUOTE]
Was this Carlson Gracie’s final thought as well?
Yeah.
I like the way it was billed as two masters, like Sam Kwok is on equal footing with Carlson Gracie.
I hope there’s a lot more on the DVD than Sam’s one-gigantic-step/one punch ‘combos’ against an outstretched arm… not what I’d have chosen to showcase as a basic skill set to seasoned martial artists (or indeed ever), which I guess is OK, as it didn’t seem like many of Gracie’s bunch were joining in anyway. It’s only an hour DVD? So it probably doesn’t have much to see: at the rate they were both talking on that clip anyway.
Would seem that Gracie’s lot wouldn’t have that much to gain from this ‘exchange’… wonder how much it cost and how much Gracie got, and for that matter, how much bosom buddies those two really were…
Apologies for being negative: it may have been great, and I’m all for cross training - just looked, somehow, like a bunch of old arse to my jaundiced eye.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;828599]
Apologies for being negative: it may have been great, and I’m all for cross training - just looked, somehow, like a bunch of old arse to my jaundiced eye.
[/QUOTE]
I agree on the surface in that we don’t see the WCK actually showcased.. The question IMO is if Kwok has the skill level to do and teach the material at the level needed–we don’t see it there, although what was seen was passable, just not ‘enough’ or in the right context.
They need to show the WCK guys who are actually able to do it when the otherguy is doing MT or whatever more excepted style or method–full contact.. When they DON’T show this it immediately raises a red flag and WCK has some catching up to do rep-wise..
Even if they got someone who could perform the system well, it would also have to be teachable and probably in a really short time… If this happened then IMO within months you’d see loads of new NHB folks doing it.
I can remember reading up on this event in the UK magazines. It was quite a while ago I believe, and possibly helped to secure a good relationship with BJJ & Wing Chun people.
Or so I thought, before hearing similar reactions to our ‘Mr Punch’.
The truth be known is, if the Gracie Camp wanted this to happen and contacted Hong Kong for a representative, and they spoke to Ip Chun or Ip Ching, Sifu Kwok would have been the only guy they recommend. WHY? Because that’s the business of Wing Chun people! 
Even if it happened the other way round, who would Sifu Kwoks students wish to learn from with current trends being the way they are?
Commercial status lends itself to the ageing Martial Artist, and Sifu Kwok is no spring chicken! He’s possibly one of the oldest practitioners in the UK who still teach under the official Ip Family banner, learning directly from both of Ip Mans sons. He is also a very friendly and approachable character, which helps with seminars like this IMO.
[QUOTE=YungChun;828601]…who are actually able to do it when the otherguy is doing MT or whatever more excepted style or method–full contact.. When they DON’T show this it immediately raises a red flag and WCK has some catching up to do rep-wise.. [/quote]Nah, I don’t agree with that. You’re saying for a one-day seminar they should have to go into full contact against a Thai boxer? I’m just saying there are plenty for alive, skill-based and sparring based drills they could do to show first timers.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;828604]Nah, I don’t agree with that. You’re saying for a one-day seminar they should have to go into full contact against a Thai boxer? I’m just saying there are plenty for alive, skill-based and sparring based drills they could do to show first timers.[/QUOTE]
I don’t mean a 12 round fight----I mean an alive/resisting partner with skills…
The compliant demo doesn’t cut it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcNZTCrHUiE
The noobs will say wow, great! But the real fighters will just roll their eyes..:rolleyes:
You know, Lone Tiger, I just read your post and I’ve no idea whether you thought it was a good thing in the end or not, or whether you were agreeing with me or not…! 
It is late here tho.
BTW, I wasn’t putting Sam down (I’ll leave that to Nick Forrer if he appears on this thread!). I like Sam’s stuff. He has ‘something’ I’ve rarely felt from others, but unfortunately that includes his own seniors. He also has a lot of dodgy demos out there, esp his famous 1" punch you could measure with a foot-rule. But hey, deoms are demos. My ex-sifu who is IMO one of Sam’s unsung heroes swore by him… but there’s a helluva lot of crap in his line. He’s a commercialist first and foremost and very traditional after that.
Not an ideal combination for quality MA.
More demos..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDnm0YiNfcA
These moves show a false idea of timing and what’s actually doable in real fighting… Most of those moves rely on demo timing bad attacks and are not realistic expressions of the system as shown, the timing/reaction is totally unrealistic.
The one move where he inside paks a high round kick is whacked..
But IMO just putting this stuff out there says a lot…
Aye, it’s all ****e.
[QUOTE=YungChun;828607]More demos..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDnm0YiNfcA
These moves show a false idea of timing and what’s actually doable in real fighting… Most of those moves rely on demo timing bad attacks and are not realistic expressions of the system as shown, the timing/reaction is totally unrealistic.
[/QUOTE]
–I don’t know that I’d go that far. I think a lot of what he was showing is “doable.” But I would have been more impressed if he had just let his partner ad lib in a sparring session and allowed the technique to come out unscripted.
[QUOTE=KPM;828614]–I don’t know that I’d go that far. I think a lot of what he was showing is “doable.” But I would have been more impressed if he had just let his partner ad lib in a sparring session and allowed the technique to come out unscripted.[/QUOTE]
Hicks law is in effect…
When you know what’s coming you start your perfect counter at the same exact time as does the attacker–as does everyone who does these kinds of demo moves..
In reality the beginning of the counter happens substantially later than we see in these and other demos because there is a perception/cognitive delay.. This is why in real fighting you see folks taking the offensive and not waiting for attacks.. Sure counter attacking and intercepting works, but not like this… How often do we see the moves shown as shown in any real fighting or sparring?
Demos are demos, I don’t put stock in them at all.
At times they seem totally unrealistic, heck I even saw demos of people counter the shoot with a flying knee or doing a jump spin hook kick in MMA !!
Imagine that !!
IMO a demo used legitimately can be used to teach something that has actual merit.. Folks can start off slow and apply a move to a known attack, etc.. Then you up the ante, etc..
But when you need to hold out demos as the example of the fighting value of the system then you are all show and no go.. To show fighting value of a system or style or method you have to show actual fighting.. The actual fighting will not look anything like what we see there in most cases as ‘demoed’… Those who have been around the block can see right away what is reasonable and not just based on the timing and motion used…
[QUOTE=YungChun;828616]Hicks law is in effect…
When you know what’s coming you start your perfect counter at the same exact time as does the attacker–as does everyone who does these kinds of demo moves..
In reality the beginning of the counter happens substantially later than we see in these and other demos because there is a perception/cognitive delay.. This is why in real fighting you see folks taking the offensive and not waiting for attacks.. Sure counter attacking and intercepting works, but not like this… How often do we see the moves shown as shown in any real fighting or sparring?[/QUOTE]
—Good points! That’s why I would have rather seen the techniques show up in an “unscripted” fashion. But given good reaction and timing, there’s really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo’d couldn’t show up in such a fashion. Not every attack comes in at lightning speed. Just watch a few UFCs. 
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;828606]You know, Lone Tiger, I just read your post and I’ve no idea whether you thought it was a good thing in the end or not, or whether you were agreeing with me or not…! :D[/QUOTE]
I agree that it was a commerically driven event, and I’m a huge seminar fan to be honest so any exchange is a good thing if you ask me! Judgment on its effectiveness would have to be left to the participants though IMO and it would be good to see if they both get together again.
[QUOTE=KPM;828624]But given good reaction and timing, there’s really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo’d couldn’t show up in such a fashion. [/QUOTE]
If by “show up” you mean look nothing like what was seen in the demo then I agree.. :D:cool: