I rarely talk about chi sao and I have put classical WC behind me, it is not my cup of tea.
However I will say this:
When I first started WC I had already considerable experience in Boxing, Karate, judo and some in wrestling and Hung Kuen.
When I first started chi sao, my teacher said,“this will be different for you, your judo back ground and wrestling will want you to close in, but I need you to not do that, that is not the range WC fights in, that is for grappling”.
I understood that as meaning if I got to close, grappling is better suited and I agreed.
Still do.
See, the typical clinch in wrestling and MT is much closer than chi sao works and trains in, it is a head-to-head range and chi sao is NOT that close so it can’t be a “clinch drill”.
When I am outside, I use my power from boxing, HK and kyokushin, when I close in, it is the WC and SPM that come out, when I clinch, it is the MY and greco-roman that work, when my body is in contact with my opponent, its the judo that works.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1007240]I’m not concerned with what chi sao is “supposed” to teach. I’m more interested in the most effective method to develop inside/close distance functional fighting… that would be the clinch, a method common to all functional systems including boxing, Muay Thai, Greco Roman/folkstyle/freestyle wrestling, MMA, sub grappling, etc.
[/quote]
So Western Boxing is clinch fighting too… Hmmmm… A sport where you can’t even hold and hit.. (what VT does) Hmmm very functional yes..
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1007240]
A wing chun guillotine? Yeah, right. That’s about as ludicrous as a BJJ spinning back kick.[/QUOTE]
Right that’s absurd.. BECAUSE VT is not a clinch fighting art…VT does not clinch… VT does not trap it’s own hands, thus taking them out of the fight…
Don’t like the method? Don’t do the art.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1007243]So Western Boxing is clinch fighting too… Hmmmm… A sport where you can’t even hold and hit.. (what VT does) Hmmm very functional yes..[/QUOTE]
Boxing has some very functional clinch fighting techniques. Are they limited. Of course they are. Doesn’t mean they can’t be part of an effective toolbox.
Right that’s absurd.. BECAUSE VT is not a clinch fighting art…VT does not clinch… VT does not trap it’s own hands, thus taking them out of the fight…
Don’t like the method? Don’t do the art.
If it was trained more effectively and realistically, it would have become more of a clinch fighting art.
BTW, if I have overhooks, underhooks, or a combo of those, my hands aren’t out of the fight, yours are.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1007241]Yeah, what it seems to do in the majority of cases, is to ignore the most effective methods for fighting in that range.[/QUOTE]
If by “that range” you mean the clinch then yes VT ignores methods that function in a range that IT does not… VT does not train to, or fight from the clinch.. That’s because (for the 200th time) it does not want to tie up it’s weapons..
Wing Chun chi sao is a drill (actually a series of drills) that teaches certain concepts and techniques about fighting in a close quarter range before it could get to clinch mode…
and using certain principles of centerline, straight line hitting, not fighting force with force - but yet finding angles that provide for your own forward pressure…going back to centerline and striking forward if you’re taken off; and yes, controlling your opponent’s balance and limb(s) momentarily…
so that you can deliver strikes - because wing chun is about hitting.
Without “attaching” into some kind of clinch or semi-clinch.
AND IT WORKS AS FAR AS IT GOES.
But once someone crashes that barrier (“range” is a better word)…then you’re no longer doing wing chun…pure and simple…you’re doing something else.
Which is fine, as I said earlier.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1007245]If by “that range” you mean the clinch then yes VT ignores methods that function in a range that IT does not… VT does not train to, or fight from the clinch.. That’s because (for the 200th time) it does not want to tie up it’s weapons..[/QUOTE]
Which is why so many people have trouble fighting with it.
Especially if they’ve never really learned the system…then it’s a b i t c h to make it work. :rolleyes:
:eek:
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1007248]Especially if they’ve never really learned the system…then it’s a b i t c h to make it work. :rolleyes::eek::D[/QUOTE]
Don’t you find it ironic that the only people who can provide any evidence of themselves actually making it work are told they are not really doing WC?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1007249]Don’t you find it ironic that the only people who can provide any evidence of themselves actually making it work are told they are not really doing WC?[/QUOTE]
***NOW you bring up a good point, and very timely to where this thread has gone. I think (and I’m not the only one with this view) that many people within the wing chun world have turned the chi sao drills into waaaaaay more than what they were ever meant to be…
but as has been said, wing chun is about hitting, first-and-foremost.
However chi sao training has become such a big “sell” that people have gotten fooled into thinking that wing chun is something other than what is it really is when it comes to fighting with it.
And the result has been, for many people, the idea that wing chun actual fighting is not really wing chun at all.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1007248]Especially if they’ve never really learned the system…then it’s a b i t c h to make it work. :rolleyes::eek::D[/QUOTE]
Yet, Alan and his guys fight with WCK in MMA, train with very good fighters, and seem to do OK. This, btw, is the same Alan who said that Dale and I are just about the only guys here who know what they are talking about (and not you Victor).
The faat/method of WCK is the most crucial part of the curriculum. Without it, you are essentially lost, and can’t put the pieces of the puzzle together. Even with the faat and the rest of the curriculum, you need to go put in loads of time sparring against good, skilled people to develop your skill.
And that’s why you have so little understanding of WCK.
Is this WC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhRlMYRu0fw
Now I would say that what’s on that vid, Paul…is the worst possible kind of “attached fighting” imaginable.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1007261]Now I would say that what’s on that vid, Paul…is the worst possible kind of “attached fighting” imaginable. [/QUOTE]
Hey, be nice, they are on skates !
Gotta cut them some slack, okay…
A better example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdigsG1D4_g&NR=1
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1007258]Is this WC?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhRlMYRu0fw[/QUOTE]
Is this?
That was a nice punch out of the clinch, Paul…
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1007248]Especially if they’ve never really learned the system…then it’s a b i t c h to make it work. :rolleyes::eek::D[/QUOTE]
Yes. it is:
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1007267]Is this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgswuXGYzKY[/QUOTE]
You sir, are evil !!
LMAO !!
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1007269]That was a nice punch out of the clinch, Paul…:)[/QUOTE]
Indeed, it was a very chi sao oriented move 