Umm…wing chun is one of the best arts (in my opinion) to learn how to FIGHT effectively. You don’t NEED fancy high kicks to win fights. The kicks I’ve learned in Wing Chun have sufficed so far, so i’d say so far it’s been pretty complete for me.
Dear Raatra-
Sorry I am only a beginner of the style, So I dont feel the wright to speak on behalf of the system. But…
Wing Chun Dosent have any “Specific” technniques used in Specific circumstances. There arnt any specific examples I dont think that do apply to ground fighting nor to the rest of the style. Wing Chuns Centre line theory still applies when you are caught on the ground. The wing chun punch still works and so do all the blocks. I think we can use it but thats not the point of it. You are a far greater threat on your feet then what you are on the ground I think you are a lot stronger and better of on your feet in the first place anyway. Wing Chun can be applied on the ground but not as a means of literally fighting on the ground but only used from getting hit to the ground to getting up from the ground.
i can’t believe this…
Edd
What Cant you Believe???
Mark, everything you said was correct, i wasn’t “not beleiving” anything in your postt
Edd
Mark,
>>>Wing Chuns Centre line theory still applies when you are caught on the ground
That’s where you are oh so wrong my friend.
Here is some advice. Take what little Wing Chun you know now and go find someone who grapples or does sometype of MMA or groundfighting style like BJJ.
Ask to spar with them. When you get taken to the ground and get mounted, see what happens if you stick to centerline. It’s called an armbar and it hurts like hell if you don’t tap.
Unfortunaly many Wing Chun theories and techniques are thrown out when it comes to groundfighting, because Wing Chun was made for standing.
Now, Wing Chun sensitivity and Chi Sau ability is very, very helpful on the ground, but groundfighting is about positioning, and I haven’t found any Wing Chun systems that address that range of combat…yet!
What good does your Wing Chun do when the guy has the full mount on you and you don’t have range on his face?
What about if he had your back and you are in a rear naked choke?
What if he moves in and clinches with you and throws you…do you know how to land properly?
What if you are on top in the other guys guard and you decide to start striking on his centerline…you know what will happen?
Striking on his centerline is exactly what the other guy would want you to do in that situation, and thus he would throw his legs up and execute an armbar or triangle choke when you extend your elbows and strike towards his centerline…that is just one of many examples of how trying to translate standing Wing Chun will just get your ass kicked on the ground.
A Wing chun guy will naturally think “Oh, I’ll just strike on centerline in this situation” and fall into the grapplers trap. What the Wing Chun guy should be doing to be safe in the grapplers guard position is keep his elbows at his side and arms in (as opposed to trying to maintain center), keep control of the guys lower body by grabbing his belt or pants above his crotch, guard his neck for choke attempts, and be going for an escape from the mount into side control (a position totally against Wing Chun principle since you are no longer “facing” your opponent).
Mark, I don’t mean to be rude, but groundfighting has evolved way beyond what most Kung Fu styles have. It has become a specialized form of fighting and has rules and theories and principles all unto its own, that have nothing to do with and don’t translate to stand up fighting.
Take it from an experienced fighter who has been doing Wing Chun for 10 years, keep your Wing Chun standing where it belongs, and when it comes to groundfighting look into a technical groundfighting only style like brazilian jujitsu, Catch-as-Catch-Can wrestling, japanese submission wrestling, or Russian Sambo.
It’s easy to think, “oh, I’ll just punch a grappler if he tries to throw me”, but what most Wing Chun guys forget and don’t realize before its too late is that grapplers want to be in close range also (for a throw or takedown which will be lightening fast since it is all they practice). So the Wing Chun guy comes in for close range striking and thus does the grapplers work for him by shortening the distance needed for the takedown. Trapping range is perfect for a clinch and throw.
I guess what I am trying to tell you Mark, is that unless you are 100% sure that you can KNOCK OUT a man in the split second that it takes a grappler to grab your arms and drag you down with a suicide throw, you’d better start to crosstrain in some type of grappling.
-jojitsu27
Jojitsu or whatever..
I was simply replying to what the actuall begining of this post was about.
I didnt say that Wing Chun would kick a BJJ ass if they were both on the ground. I know Wing Chun isnt supposed to be on the ground thats what I said.
Sorry but how many Street fighters know how to do all that stuff that you just said???
How often are you going to come across a guy that knows how to do all that??
The Conversation wasnt about Wing Chun trying to beat BJJ, It was just genralisation that centre line theory still works on the ground.
If you wanted to argue about styles start a conversation in the Forum about it.
Basically I think anyone who weighs more than me could kick my ass on the ground but I know if someone were to hit me to the ground I could defend my self (using Wing Chun)Untill Im standing up.
By the way Where are you from?? Just curoius..
Power in a Wing Chun straight is derived from the same place as a Boxing straight.
p…c…p
“take the pebble from my hand”
[This message has been edited by flavour54 (edited 08-05-2000).]
;I studied wing chun for a number of year. Whether complete or not wing chun is complete I don't know, but it literally saved my ass in prison.
heheeee i’m glad it ‘saved your ass’ hehe.
thanks for making me laugh, and i’m glad you came out of there alive…
Edd
Actually,heres a point ive made again and again.
Your opponent doesnt have to be a skilled grappler to get you off your feet.The average guy who played high school football and has adrenalin flowing will stand a good chance of getting you down.Once down,if you dont know at least a decent amount of groundfighting,the guy wont need much more than a superior starting position to beat you down.This is what most ground guys understand but have a lot of trouble putting words to .You dont have to specialize on the ground,but youd better get comfortable there,just like in every other range of combat.
jimmy23,
very good point. I think that most people who believe they can actually control the range of combat that a fight stays in are seriously misguided and probably haven’t been in many fights.
-jojitsu27
u guys must be rich, and have LOADS of money.
if i had the money i’d train allday everday in b-jui jitsu, wing chun, (i’d like to just spend the whole time doing 5 animals shoalin though) and also do aikido. oh yeh, and kickboxing
i, (nothing to do with money), am unable to goto just 1 school. i would love to do jui jitsu. but i can’t. so leave it out. thanks
no one really believes that u don’t need groundwork, even if they say it.
keep the “secret” of having to know groundwork to yourselves, i’m sick of hearing it…
sorry if that’s harsh…
Edd
Hi Sharky,
Again please reread some of my previous postings. I specifically stated that I would not try to “Box a Boxer or Grapple a Grappler”. 
I think that all arts should be able to be utilized at all ranges. Some are just more suited to various circumstances than others. Kind of like guns and different calibers of bullets. A .22 can kill just as well as a .45 however one is more suited to larger game and different circumstances than the other. Both will do the job but one will do it more effectively in different circumstances.
As I said, if you want to learn groundfighting then take a groundfighting art. However, realize that most grappling arts are guilty of the same “tunnell vision” they accuse everyone else of. In other words they learn to fight very well on the ground but the stand up game is lacking. I am sorry I know many of you will disagree with me, especially groundfighters , but, in my years of working in Law Enforcement, both as a Correctional Officer and a Police Officer I have had several physical encounters. I can not think of one instance when I was taken to the ground by my opponent. There were occassions when I would take an opoponent down and then control him there.
Someone earlier made a comment about using the Wing Chun Horse with a bent knee to pin an opponent once he is down. I can tell you that this works quite well. At the same time you wil be able to strike almost at will. Just for the record, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow of New York City has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun Curriculim. However, He was able to stop one of the Gracies students from taking him down. The guy hosted a seminar and moved in to take Sifu Chow down. Sifu struck him on the side of the head with an elbow. The guy stated he could have still completed the movement. Sifu replied he did not him him hard. The guy tried again and was almost knocked out. None of the Gracies present agreed to try Sifu Chow out. But, think about it, Sifu Chow saw something he liked and decided to incorporate it into his art. Does this make his Wing Chun any less than anyone else, I don’t think so. Wing Chun does have alot to offer. Is it the best choice for everyone, probably not. Is it complete: Wing Chun is as complete as you want it to be. If you want to concentrate on Chin na you will find it is agreeable. If you want to stress groundwork you will find it as well. Still, real good groundfighting should be left to a grappler as that is their domain.
One last thing, for those that think Groundfighting is the ultimate. Most people you run into on the street will not be at a level of a Gracie. To be quite frank I am not too worried about meeting someone that good on the street. Besides, there are many factors which can make some changes to a real life encounter, weapons multiple opponents etc. In such an instance which art would you chose to use: an art that stresses one on one and taking the opponent to the ground or an art which stresses quick direct assualts and mobility? I know which one I would chose.
BTW: I am not a student of Sifu Chow I just like some of the things he does. He and I disagree on the need to incorporate some other arts to better our Wing Chun. I used to think like this, I took Pekiti Tirsia for some time. However the more I researched and trained in Wing Chun the more I found it contained. Does it have everything: probably not. Does it have all I am interested in? I am still looking but so far have not been disappointed. My only suggestion to anyone training is to train in your art of choice. If you think somehting is missing dig a little deeper. Chances are you will find what you are looking for, or at least an aspect of it, in your art already. Maybe not to the degree of another art but somewhat just the same.
Peace,
Dave
i think its alwaays good to atleast know what someone else will do to you. i have a few bjj videos that deals with escapes, reversals and sweeps. as some one once said"know your enemy."
but even though you probably wouldnt find someone who is a good bjj exponent that doesnt mean that you should not expect it. if we thought that we would only fight people who no nothing about fighting then you would only have to do it for a year not a life time. id probaly learn boxing
see ya
THE MORE YOU SWEAT IN PEACE
THE LESS YOU BLEED IN WAR
Benny-
I understand what you are talking about but, As we have been taught (hey its me Mark By the way)You should imagine that your oppenent is faster, stonger etc, But to what extent?
Is that only when where training or when where on the street aswell!!
I would rather think Im taugher and faster when I get into a blu then rather think he is faster and stronger!
But at the same time theres no point in setting to high standards for yourself!
What Do you do benny??
When your confronted do you think…“hey I better not let this guy do this or that or whatever”
Or Do you just go at it with all guns blazing?
I would seriously like to know what someone your size must think since I my self…well you know what I look like!
Catcha!
Mark
Benny,
I am not saying you should not study another art, if you chose to. What I am saying is that I feel there is nothing wrong with spending that time perfecting your own art. I do not train because I am expecting to fight. I train because I enjoy it. I feel that My art prepares me for what I will most likely face on the street. So far, my experience has backed me up. I have been doing Martial Arts since I was about 8 or so, and Wing Chun for over 18 years now. I will not say that I can grapple on the ground with a BJJ exponent. However, I am confident that taking me to the ground will not be as easy as many seem to think. No, I am not the baddest person around and I am not trying to knock anyone. I respect BJJ for what it is. However, I feel that my time is better spent preparing to face multiple attackers and those with weapons. At least, that has been my experience as to the threats I will most likley face.
Having said that; I think history will show that it was not uncommon for past masters to train and learn more than one art. But today, since most of us have to work and can not devote as much time as we might wish to the arts, I think it makes more sense to learn our art of choice rather well. If we have additional time and desire then looking into another art is fine. I have studied Judo and feel that it has helped to prepare me for the ground game, at least to the extent that I can regain my feet. Still, there are those who do nothing but Wing Chun that I would not wisht o fight, even if I got them on the ground. I have seen people utilize strikes from very short distance which hurt. The third form Bui Tze can prepare your fingers for incredible gripping techniques. Remember, in the gym rules apply outisde of the gym rules don’t. Many techniques which rules favour will not carry over into the street.
I also agree with the idea of the more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war. Now tell me, if I practice over 1,000 punches and kicks every single day along with footwork drills do you think I will be ill prepared for an opponent I meet on the street? If I were going to compete then I may train for the competition. In other words knowing the rules and confines of something like the UFC I would need to do a bit of groundwork to prepare. Still, for the average bar fight or street encounter I would rather perfect my side-step with a punch. Different situations require different responses. There is nothign wrong with cross training but do it because you want to not because you think there is a shortcoming in your own system. Chances are you need to put more sweat into your art of choice and less into diversifying.
Peace,
Dave
dont get me wrong i love ving tsun and dont want to learn anything else i just like to know what to do if the situations arrive.
i dont think as im way to slow for that, you know me mark. i just go at it as best i can. i thought it was you but i wasnt sure. and i always think they are bigger then me as there are not many people smaller then me.
see ya
Maybe this is a little philisophical but "go at it as best I can"here here.
That’s exactly what you do Benny, well said.
Remember to think like a Pit Bull and kick his a$$. If he hits you get more aggressive and kick his a$$ even more. And give him/her(you never know in this day and age) one for the flav.
Peace.
“take the pebble from my hand”
i didnt mean i go into a fight thinking anything. i just like to know that if im in a certain position that a have a chance of getting out of it and if you know what they do you can find things in your own style which you can use to beat them. you can also learn if you study(i dont mean do it just read and look at it) other arts, how they set you up for different techs. ie if your against a bjj dude and your on top they can fake an armbar and as you try to get up(which most people who dont know do) they put you into a choke with their legs. now that mightent be the best example but you get what i mean
just my views
see ya
THE MORE YOU SWEAT IN PEACE
THE LESS YOU BLEED IN WAR
when i train i alway think that they are bigger,faster and stronger then me as its usually the case and it motivates me more. i dont think i actuyally cross train i just muck around when im not doing anything. one of my senoirs does stuff with some high bjj dudes and he says that he usually lets them in to get used to their tech, as if he doesnt want them too they dont get in. just so you know hes 6’ something and a brick shithouse so that helps alot too.