Fajing- the good ones do.
Joe Frazier would juke in… but atea lot of jabs along the way.
Contributed to his slurred speech.
i would suggest tryin some simple counter, like pak sau, w/ a partner.
then, i would turn around and put on some head gear w/ face cage and ask ur partner to put on some cut-finger gloves(very little loss of hand speed) and THEN ask him to try his best to punch u SOLIDLY in the face w/ a jab. i can guarantee u if done right, u’ll realize the intent is different and u’ll have a much harder time tryin to counter as the punches will jus seem to slip in. if nuttin else, u’ll learn the difference btwn trainin cautiously and then straight up goin @ it(where the trainin partner isn’t scare to bust ur nose open anymore). it may take a while to adjust to the intent of the punch. i think this would be the best time to learn to read their intent and interrupt their timin. jus from my little experience..
Themes…
One thing that we train in HFY Wing Chun is “gate clearance”. Regardless of the type of attack you have to deal with the primary focus is to keep your gates clear of the opponent’s parts/energy as well as keeping them under control. Several themes that are apparent to me in HFY application are this (in my own words):
-
Be mindful of your space (high to low, left to right, front to back) when addressing an attacker. Keep their energies off your center, but own the “real estate” at all times.
-
Be mindful of your position relative to the attacker. In other words, angulate at all times (never nose to nose).
-
Be mindful of your center. You should at all times begin all action mentally and physically from your mind, body and spirit.
-
Consider factors of risk WRT yourself, your opponent, and the environment; Risk Management.
-
Be mindful of energy. Energy is dynamic and is always in flux. Remember to identify and control your own energies as well as the attackers’.
These maybe common themes as well in other matrial arts, and these 5 points I picked out must be focused on at all times (I’m sure there are more points as well), regardless of the style you have to deal with, regardless of the person you are fighting.
I feel that when it comes down to it, combat is one person vs another person. Combat is not this ‘style’ vs that ‘style’. Because of this, you cannot focus on what techniques you have to deal with and observe. Rather, how can you maintain control of yourself and take control of the situation in a low self-risk approach with maximum results.
Good points, Savi!
For fast jabs, I can zone out to his side and kwun sau to cover. This is your point #2.
Or if I like I will biu disrupting his chain jabs as well as forcing or creating his response on my biu bridge. I will then cross his bridge attacking his center. Groin kick of Hendrik is more safe and faster than this biu hand though.
Regards,
If you know you’re facing a boxer in a 1-on-1 duel type situation where you both can set up (mentaly and physically) before engagement, much of the advice previously given has merit (especially Savi’s very detailed, very thought out post).
If on the other hand you’re suddenly thrust into combat without any idea of the true numbers, capacity, intent, etc. of opponents and do not have the luxury of pre-setting yourself, the jab will come as easily as the haymaker or shoot and you need to be able to have reflexive responses that will shield you from a wide range of attacks and, while shielding (and even countering if your skill level is relatively high enough comapred to the attacker), improve your position (not just relative to the attacker but to the environment) at the same time.
In other words, f’ the jab, you can’t worry about it. You need to smash the attack quickly and in such a way as it sets up your repeated smashing of them while using either the surroundings or their bodies to minimize the chance someone else will hit you while you’re (rapidly) finishing them.
How do you smash? You use strong stuctural alignment and mechanics composed of geometry that holds up under stress, very simple movements that you can execute under pressure, and a mind set that allows you to move in and do it.
You don’t fuss with the jab, you cut off the opponent’s offense all together, attack their structure so they can’t compose a defense, smash them, and then continue if you didn’t finish them, or move along if you did.
The most useful weapons in this sense will be Kim Yeung Ma with the simple turn and step if/as needed, and the vertical punch with its built in defense that allows for the offense (or whatever, Kwan Sao, or any move, can do the same if you train it).
To train, have a partner begin slow and light with a variety of attacks, including jabs, and learn to lock onto them and smash their center regardless of which of 3.2 million different types/angles/‘engergies’/etc. they throw at you, and finish them quick. Then build up faster and heavier as you go. Rinse, repeat.
great points RR, nice and raw.
since we’re on that wavelength, i honestly personally never concern myself too much w/ someone’s front jab as its not the “power” hand. usually, a jab, as someone stated before, is simply used as a setup for somethin else. a good fighter will use it to draw an opponent or test their responses, similiar to how a TKD stylists will throw some light round kicks up to “test the waters”. it is almost always a setup for somethin else, and i would be moer concerned w/ what comes afterward, such as a solid cross, or even worse a combination. i think RR’s advice was best. i always think,“f*ck what this guy gives me; he better be more concerned about what i’m bouta give him!” 
Yes and No.
Originally posted by mysteri
since we’re on that wavelength, i honestly personally never concern myself too much w/ someone’s front jab as its not the “power” hand.
Hi Mysteri,
Although you do have a point, Energy is Energy regardless if it is the power side or not. You are correct about the intent behind light kicks and punches being used as measuring tools, but from a military perspective, any possible risk to self is unacceptable. An attack that is able to penetrate your defense is a weakness / flaw / hole in structure. Therefore I will have to disagree with your statement in relation to factors of risk. If you disregard those ‘feeler’ techniques and wait for the stronger attacks, both your time and energy are being wasted in the process. Not to mention the inability to capitalize on the ‘offering’ and possibility of unneccesary damage as well.
Proper footwork and hand positions is all that is neccesary to keep those types of attacks at bay. If it isn’t, then you don’t have the most efficient setup of your parts in relation to them.
i honestly personally never concern myself too much w/ someone’s front jab as its not the “power” hand. usually, a jab, as someone stated before, is simply used as a setup for somethin else.
Mike TYson and Kostya Tszyu are two counterexamples. So are a few of my training partners. Jack Dempsey advocated KO power in both hands.
IMO this is a dangerous generalisation. Indeed, a WC practitioner should be able to do damage with either paw. As should a boxer.
Larry Holmes knocked down a Puerto Rican ina heavyweight championship with a left jab.
Lots of people jabs are more powerful than many right hands.
Its a mistake to theorize about the power of a good jab by someone who knows what they are doing.
Wing chun timing can work against a jab but undersetimating is a mistake. Power is relative.
Also Amerlich is right… boxers and wc folks can have power in both hands.
A jab can turn into something else in mid flight.
thank u guys for ur replies. i think that maybe i should clarify a lil bit on what i said since it seems that my words may be taken twisted. first and foremost, since i’m not a WC practicioner, i don’t want to pretend to know much about it as i do not.
since i study jow ga fightin, i’ll speak from that perspective. i think that we can all agree, however, that in most cases, u won’t be fightin a champion boxer, generally. i think any good fighter can usually “read” the intent of their opponent, eg. if their front fist is a “feeler” or the “real deal”. now i’d like to correct that i didn’t say that a front jab can’t knock someone out, actually earlier i pointed out the power it can have(i think my first post), but generally people will try to use that first jab to feel w/. the one thing i keep in mind when fight is distance. since jow ga is a southern long hand system, we prefer to control the gap btwn the opponent and ourselves. whether a jab is quick and hard, or slow and weak, it shall be dealt w/ accordingly, afterall, a jab’s jus a jab. i think for someone to move into range to hit w/ power, they must move in fast and hard, or must already be close enough to hit. if they’re already close enough to hit, then they should have been repeatedly hit by me already. if they r not, then they must move their entire body into my range and bridge the gap, and this will indicate to me the intent. this i do know from my own experience and it of course in no way is the “be all, end all” solution to front jabs but i think that we can all agree that as long as we can read the intent and recognize what’s comin beforehand, the jab isn’t too hard to remedy, and simply becomes an obstruction to my targets and objective, no more no less. take care.
Originally posted by mysteri
[ i think that we can all agree, however, that in most cases, u won’t be fightin a champion boxer, generally.
-
Maybe not, but IMO your average boxer is a more dangerous animal than most TCMA trainees.
-
If your MA is designed to deal with incompetents rather than the elite, IMO your training is deficient. One of my mentors suggests you need something that’s going to have a chance of working against a combination State champion kickboxer and BJJ purple belt.
i think any good fighter can usually “read” the intent of their opponent
Yeah but boxers can be one of your "any good fighter"s too. And “any good fighter” understands the value of deception and
distraction.
i think that we can all agree that as long as we can read the intent and recognize what’s comin beforehand, the jab isn’t too hard to remedy, and simply becomes an obstruction to my targets and objective, no more no less
as long as … hardly a guarantee. I’m not sure we can all agree.
man, i got off of work early for the first time, so i got some more time to amuse myself.
bro(s), i think that we can both agree to disagree. but that’s perfectly fine as one of us would be unnecessary if we agreed on everything, right?
i wouldn’t call my trainin deficient, quite contrary actually. i think that maybe our differences lie in our mentalities. i train my hardest w/ the most quality i can get out of what i train, and most realistic. though my experience is limited, its an advantage that i do train w/ experience fighters and martial artists(my own mentors) who know what works and what doesn’t. of course, what works for one person doesn’t always necessarily mean it will work for another. i think one major difference is though i train to be prepared against tough fighters(as opposed to moderate fighters or someone usin “self-defense” skills), i don’t take too many people that seriously. by this i mean that i don’t concern myself w/ bein scared about them shootin a quick punishin jab through my face. i simply react accordingly. i think a lot of people over-estimate their actual skill level, and i personally like to keep it very real. i’m not sayin i can’t get took, cuz of course anyone can. but i think if u think defensively, u’ll fight defensively. and when i fight, my “defense” is my offense(i’m sure u may trai nthe same way). and i would expect that my trainin would kick in and i’ll emerge victorious. since i’ve began this type of trainin, i’ve yet to been taken yet, but then again i guess they weren’t as good of fighters as they thought and i haven’t fought any good fighters yet. i’m always open to gainin deeper insight through experience and learnin somethin new. thanx for the debates sir “mouth fighter”(as u’ve dubbed urself), its good to have some entertainment after a hard days work. good luck and peace be with u bro(s)!
Counter against jab?
Lean body backwards out of range & sidekick his knee/shin. Train this with good shinguards, and beware of keeping the right distance while doing this.
Lean back? A possible recipe for disaster!
Also- often in these discussions a false straw man is sometimes created- many boxers know how to think outside of the box-
when not in the ring.
Originally posted by chen zhen
Counter against jab?
Lean body backwards out of range & sidekick his knee/shin. Train this with good shinguards, and beware of keeping the right distance while doing this.
I dont think this is a recipe for disaster, IMO the lead side kick to the knee works quite well to interupt timing & mobility.
Chen Zen are you locking out on this? A mate of mine used to use this side kick often to the lead thigh and knee area to control the fight distancing while sparing, real anoying to get in on and had good boxing hands to boot.
Yuanfen - the lean will protect your head, if you remain completely up right the jam doesnt function as well and you might end up saying goodbye to you scone.
However you will still need to deal with the hands eventually.
As usual the more tools the better (refer numerous sparing threads).
Originally posted by namron
[B]
I dont think this is a recipe for disaster, IMO the lead side kick to the knee works quite well to interupt timing & mobility.
Chen Zen are you locking out on this? A mate of mine used to use this side kick often to the lead thigh and knee area to control the fight distancing while sparing, real anoying to get in on and had good boxing hands to boot.
Yuanfen - the lean will protect your head, if you remain completely up right the jam doesnt function as well and you might end up saying goodbye to you scone.
[/B]
not to speak for YF, as he’s a bit more knowledgable than me; but i believe he was talking about an appropriate wing chun response. leaning back and kicking may work well for other martial arts but its not very WC. a good WC person will try to bridge the gap and get in there, instead of staying outside which will only allow the opponent to throw more jabs (or whatever other long range weapons they have) for you to avoid.
as to a jam functioning better when you’re leaning backwards… thats pretty confusing; the stronger your structure behind the jam, the stronger the jam. leaning back typically isn’t very structural.
Originally posted by namron[B]
However you will still need to deal with the hands eventually.
As usual the more tools the better (refer numerous sparing threads). [/B]
another thing not very WC. the more a tool’s been trained the better. adding more poorly developed tools won’t help one bit.
TJD sez:
but i believe he was talking about an appropriate wing chun response. leaning back and kicking may work well for other martial arts but its not very WC. a good WC person will try to bridge the gap and get in there, instead of staying outside which will only allow the opponent to throw more jabs (or whatever other long range weapons they have) for you to avoid.
Good analysis.
Leaning back and kicking- leaves you immobile for a moment
and one has to recover their structure before hands can be used effectively.
Not just theory- can be demonstrated.
Originally posted by TjD
[B]
not to speak for YF, as he’s a bit more knowledgable than me; but i believe he was talking about an appropriate wing chun response. leaning back and kicking may work well for other martial arts but its not very WC. a good WC person will try to bridge the gap and get in there, instead of staying outside which will only allow the opponent to throw more jabs (or whatever other long range weapons they have) for you to avoid.
as to a jam functioning better when you’re leaning backwards… thats pretty confusing; the stronger your structure behind the jam, the stronger the jam. leaning back typically isn’t very structural.
another thing not very WC. the more a tool’s been trained the better. adding more poorly developed tools won’t help one bit. [/B]
What is wing chun…
The tools cant develop if you dont train them.
Namron sez:
The tools cant develop if you dont train them.
A fairly general statement.
Tools have to be understood and developed.
Leaning back and kicking may be an adaptation to a particular situation- but training leaning back and kicking can be due to a
lack of understanding of wing chun dynamics… note that I said maybe- because i dont know what you do. Nothing personal.
Combat
If I may, the goal in combat is to end it quickly. This means that what you do has to be efficient in use of space, save time and conserve energy. Leaning back requires more space and more energy. If you are kicking while leaning back, this means that your center of gravity is retreating from your opponent. This also means that the maximum potential in your kick is less than what it should be due to the reverse flow of momentum.
One of the most important points to consider when doing this is the position it leaves you in. Whether you lean back while turning your side or not, your centerline is being exposed to unncessary risk. The accuracy of the kick is only as accurate as what you can see. You don’t gain much in this action. The idea of attacking low may be correct, but there are more optimal soultions to this.
Although a successful kick may land, it will not finish the job. If the kick is unsuccessful, you are worse off than when you started.