Their is a dummy that is made so you can paint marks for the pressure points on it.
What is that dummy called?
my 2 counterfeit cents on the “centreline…”
In the Moy Yat derived lineage I was in, there was the midline (equivalent to the motherline mentioned above) and the centreline (roughly equivalent to a combination of YoshiYahu’s Ren Mai defense fixation and Vajramusti’s centreline concept.)
In the Wing Chun I learned in BC, the motherline was the spine. Any action on the opponent should affect their spine, and we should protect our spine from being affected by our opponent. The centreline was closer to ChuSauLi’s Jung Sien idea, but rather than being the “center of gravity” line, it was explained more as a “balance” line. Occupying the centreline is, therefore, a function of having the initiative regarding movement of one’s motherline and that of one’s opponent. In a striking situation this means applying a strike, block or deflection that will affect their balance, ie an appropriately structured tool along the appropriate line of force at the appropriate time.
In grappling/trapping situations, the same applies: having the initiative in regards to the motherlines, and directing force through the bridge in a way that will affect their balance.
I’m afraid I am confused. I never use the term “mother line”. What is that in Chinese? 
I only heard the term “Jung Sien” (Centerline) or “Jung Sum Sien” (Center of Gravity line) in WCK. Help me translate into Chinese…
[QUOTE=chusauli;963225]I’m afraid I am confused. I never use the term “mother line”. What is that in Chinese?
I only heard the term “Jung Sien” (Centerline) or “Jung Sum Sien” (Center of Gravity line) in WCK. Help me translate into Chinese…[/QUOTE]
RC,
IMHO,
Pull out the Fang Chi-Niang White CRane Kuen kuit which you have, The Center line is well define there 400 years ago.
It was called Tze Wu sien (in mandarin) be side Choong Sien (in mandaring)
Today’s there is just too many speculation and distortion for this simple concept getting into the ren mai, du mai…etc. Too much stories.
Hi Robert,
I understand your confusion - counterfeit currency tends to do that. 
It was very late when I posted that. I had just finished reading the whole thread, and wrote motherline instead of midline. Neither of my instructors used the Chinese names for midline and centreline - one of them used no chinese terminology at all. Even though they both expressed the ideas slightly differently, in the end they both used “midline” when talking about structural alignment (be it the symmetrical midline, meridians, spine, or vertical axis,) and “centreline” when talking about dynamic force alignment between oneself and one’s opponent.
I’m going to modify my response on HFY centerline since Johathan hasn’t revisited this discussion:
HFY has 2 centerlines. They are expressed in the HFY WCK formula #1 which expresses and outlines the 10 bright points or Sup Ming Dim. These are the defining foundational structures of HFY.
-
Your Centerline - this is the line down the middle of your body. In HFY you express this in the WCK formula by turning around it with no balance distortion. This also represents maintaining your own structure first before worrying about an opponent’s structure.
-
Centerline to Target - this is the line from your centerline to your opponent’s centerline. This is mostly what I was talking about in my previous post and this is what comes into play in fighting in relationship to your opponent.
So in HFY from my perspective fundamentally centerline consists of your own structure within yourself and maintaining it around a centerline, and protecting and fighting along the centerline to your opponent.
The quote I recall from Garrett Gee the HFY lineage holder on this point is “you live and die on the centerline”.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;963296]I’m going to modify my response on HFY centerline since Johathan hasn’t revisited this discussion:
HFY has 2 centerlines. They are expressed in the HFY WCK formula #1 which expresses and outlines the 10 bright points or Sup Ming Dim. These are the defining foundational structures of HFY.
-
Your Centerline - this is the line down the middle of your body. In HFY you express this in the WCK formula by turning around it with no balance distortion. This also represents maintaining your own structure first before worrying about an opponent’s structure.
-
Centerline to Target - this is the line from your centerline to your opponent’s centerline. This is mostly what I was talking about in my previous post and this is what comes into play in fighting in relationship to your opponent.
So in HFY from my perspective fundamentally centerline consists of your own structure within yourself and maintaining it around a centerline, and protecting and fighting along the centerline to your opponent.
The quote I recall from Garrett Gee the HFY lineage holder on this point is “you live and die on the centerline”.[/QUOTE]
Or… to put it simply… 1) Self-Centerline, and 2) A->B Centerline (closest distance between two points. 
Upon engagement (Jeet Kiu), HFY also employs the a third centerline.. the HFY Gee Ng Kiu or “the equator” between you and your opponent. This allows the HFY practitioner to understand the strategic usage of leverage and gravity within the bridge itself. But that’s another discussion.
The concept of Centerline is not unique to Wing Chun however. Many other MA’s employ centerline-control expressions in one form or another… take grappling’s centerline control of the mount for instance.
One concept that is primary to WC, or at least of vastly greater importance… is our notion of Self-Centerline. IE. Maintaining one’s balance throughout attacks and defense. Without it we would be leaning, diving, crouching, bending over… doing techniques that had already long been in employment by Animal Kung Fu and other styles.
This does not mean that one should never lean or commit one’s gravity to a technique/application. That is not what I’m saying. Those techniques/applications have their own time and space, as any grappler can clearly demonstrate.
What I am saying is that physics of WC teaches us body mechanics and structure energy so that we can generate knock-out power without leaning or over-committing one’s COG. And No… I’m not talking about some mystrerious/deadly “1-inch punch” here… I’m talking about rooting and knowing how to generate power from one’s structure. A concept and physical expression that is not soley found in WC, but is however clearly defined by our WC concepts and principles.
So all this conversation of WC Centerline, mother-line… etc… bring up the question I have to ask.
Do you all believe one can truly have their own Centerline/Self-Centerline… meaning establishing their own balance and rooting… without having a 50/50 stance?? 
I know some people here would have us all believe, that a 50/50 stance is a modern adaptation of WC. But I disagree. As I believe the 50/50 footwork and stance is key to expressing a fundamental and core concept of the WC. The WC Centerline. True Occupation of Center of Gravity. (What we refer to in HFY as OCG)
What say you??
[QUOTE=duende;963323]
Do you all believe one can truly have their own Centerline/Self-Centerline… meaning establishing their own balance and rooting… without having a 50/50 stance??
I know some people here would have us all believe, that a 50/50 stance is a modern adaptation of WC. But I disagree. As I believe the 50/50 footwork and stance is key to expressing a fundamental and core concept of the WC. The WC Centerline. True Occupation of Center of Gravity. (What we refer to in HFY as OCG)
What say you??[/QUOTE]
I think having your self-centreline means being rooted an balanced no matter what stance you take.
I’d say that the 50/50 stance has its time and place, like any other stance. Personally, I would try not to engage from anything other than a 50/50, but when a situation calls for it I’ll gladly adopt a 100/0 stance or anything in between.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;963233]Pull out the Fang Chi-Niang White CRane Kuen kuit which you have, The Center line is well define there 400 years ago.
It was called Tze Wu sien (in mandarin) be side Choong Sien (in mandaring)
Today’s there is just too many speculation and distortion for this simple concept getting into the ren mai, du mai…etc. Too much stories.[/QUOTE]“Tze Wu sien” = “Tze ng sien” = which would translate as “meridian”; in other words the “North-South”, “12 o’clock-6 o’clock” line. This just seems like the centreline to me - the line that bisects a person vertically into mirror halves.
Babelfish translates centreline as: , so I can see why we say “jung sien”.
For Centre of Gravity line we have: (zung sum sien).
Checking out the dictionaries for Cantonese pronounciation, the in should be pronounced like the in .
An axis line runs down from the head to ground…I relate the idea as a rotating door on a sliding track on the floor …we move so the revolving door can face or shift back according to the lines of force presented and where they are. For us to ‘face’ them we use the track …not fixed in rigid lines.
If the revolving door leans forwards or sidewyas , back it cant spin freely on its axis line
So we train in chum kil to have a god balanced movement with tracking, in any flowing combo, to maintain the goals we are also doing in the drills.
You make lateral force [left or right] against the revolving door and it simply turns to the next door space , etc…only the track moves so the revolving door is never in front of you to walk through. or gain axis to it’s er…axis line.
We re create strike lines along the centerline as all this is going on so the attempts to stop the leading strike hand by lateral measures is easily thwarted because we are simply filling the void created by the previous exchange with the next ATTACKING action.
By having strikes individually trained to have the ability to be acting like 2 hands , we can use the forearm areas of our arms , striking , to maintain our centerline integrity…by keeping elbows in as we do this we keep the forearms along the line , intercepting anything that happens to intersect it, thoughtlessly, as we ATTACK…
If we allow a space or do too much hand chasing we dont do ATTACKING actions in every move , thus we allow or simply drop the goal…to ATTACK for 9 out of 10 seconds of the engagement.
goals ?how to achieve them…not by standing face to face rolling in a rooting centerline to centerline drill, thats redundant to the actual fighting idea…
Ali had the right idea …float like a butterfly etc…only we attempt to sting like a SWARM of bees in that short space of time. No rope a dope, more like “hello, im going to be your attacker today, for our 10 second fight…” …can you deliver a sustained assault without resorting to using 2 hands to fight one of theirs in every exchange…maintain correct angles if they come at you or move away from you, left right …are you overusing lop saos …or using the 2 primary attacking actions ?
centerlines become relative to the ideas you are developing , so you learn to strike along lines before you, that you know will intercept anything coming at your line as you angle to them, face them, attack them…
After a while you realize your only facing each others centerlines in chi-sao so you have equal ability to train these ideas, so you can reach with either arm to strike the targets…like gun shooting practice in a range , before moving outside to the practical pistol range where you utilize cover , learn to shootand reload with your weak hand, under stress of timed competition…using blanks in drills to avoid taking the barrel off the target in anticipation of [contacting the arm] rather than staying on target..drills …without the goals you may end up trying to figure out how to fight a guy whos decided to extend 2 arms at you and roll up and down while standing in a basic stance too… kind of like standing infront of a gy with a gun as he fires back and you fire back facing him trying to block[chase] bullets…
if you can fire and stay out of the face of 2 potential shooting lines and use one of yours extended at a time WHILE adopting movements to give you “cover” from being in the firing line…if the guy tries to face you you move or control the shooting hand to miss as you counter fire at HIM not his arm…
Knives teach us the value of isolating one side and attacking it with a facing 2handed , one kicking legged attack at at time…potentially 3 actions at once versus 1 while staying out of the ‘firing range’ alley.
Under stress you dont think…many policemen found that under stres they stood upright and pointed their weapon at guys firing back at them…because ? thats how they trained over and over and over…until they realized under stress you dont think very well your re-chambering stuff , putting the saftey on by mistake, gun jams but you canat figure out a simple routine …under stress.
Just fire and move DONT THINK, use the centerline as your front and rear sights…move for cover in close proximity…its not going to be a long fight.
A question for CFT, Thanks
CFT sez:
“Tze Wu sien” = “Tze ng sien” = which would translate as “meridian”; in other words the “North-South”, “12 o’clock-6 o’clock” line. This just seems like the centreline to me - the line that bisects a person vertically into mirror halves.
Babelfish translates centreline as: , so I can see why we say “jung sien”.
For Centre of Gravity line we have: (zung sum sien).
CFT- a quetsion on language and terminology not on martial mechanics in motion or dynamics:
COG-centre of gravity would be more post Galilean in contemporary English language.(I am NOT asserting that in Asian worlds they did not know about the effects of gravity). In your Chinese characters and in the context above what are other alternative meanings for “sum” in between
jung and sien?
Thanks,
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;963414]CFT- a quetsion on language and terminology not on martial mechanics in motion or dynamics:
COG-centre of gravity would be more post Galilean in contemporary English language.(I am NOT asserting that in Asian worlds they did not know about the effects of gravity). In your Chinese characters and in the context above what are other alternative meanings for “sum” in between
jung and sien?
Thanks,
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]I don’t think it is a good idea to split the compounds “” and “”. On its own can mean “heart” or “centre”. So “” does mean “centre”/“middle”, whereas “” refers to the centre of weight, i.e. CoG.
Great job CFT!
Hendrik, you are correct! “Zi Wu Xian” is better than the common vernacular terms and have more meaning. 12 Di Zhi begin with “Zi” and the 7th is “Wu”.
WCK suffers from much incorrect translation, stories, MSU.
Thank you CFT!
Language attempts to capture symbolically- an entity, an event,a process etc. But the key martial
challenge is understanding the motion. Thanks again,
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=CFT;963374]“Tze Wu sien” = “Tze ng sien” = which would translate as “meridian”; in other words the “North-South”, “12 o’clock-6 o’clock” line. This just seems like the centreline to me - the line that bisects a person vertically into mirror halves.
Babelfish translates centreline as: , so I can see why we say “jung sien”.
For Centre of Gravity line we have: (zung sum sien).
Checking out the dictionaries for Cantonese pronounciation, the in should be pronounced like the in .[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the correct Cantonese pronounciations CFT.
Meridian… Equater… they are expressed in the Tao Yin/Yang symbol. With the equator being expressed by the “S” that runs through the middle.
This is also precisely where our HFY Gee Ng Ma footwork (crossing footwork between you and your opponent) comes from.
im not sure when centre of gravity would be used. I learnt that in judo but its normally used for throws isn’t it. The only use i could see would be when you have a choice being to push the guy over like a take down or to push them away (not a good choice to have to make). Maybe when you intercept someone but that is more about using his momentum.
In Hung Fa Yi, we have three centerline concepts. The first is self centerline. An example is when working through my siu nim tao form and I’m expressing centerline through only my structures and facing because I don’t have an opponent.
The second centerline is expressed when I have a partner and I have a “point A to point B.” From what I understand, TWC has a central line, which allows one line for attack and one for defense. Hung Fa Yi has something similar called Four Gate defense using tools like Biu Da and Tan Da.
Hung Fa Yi’s third centerline is referred to as Hung Fa Yi Gee Ng Kiu Tin Yan Dei centerline. This centerline is expressed when bridging occurs and allows me to attack your center of gravity. It offers superior position and goes through energy challenges. There is extensive training to develop this. This training teaches us how to fight against a boxer, grappler or an mma stylist.
Centerline
The most important thing in wing chun system is to protect the centerline, because at the centerline are all “sensitive organs” like heart etc. That’s why you learn to protect the centerline from your first lessons.
I found a web page with many information and many videos about wing chun here : http://www.wing-chun.ws
That is why we strike along the line in rotation…the tut sao action from the SLT last section aka shaving hands is performed with fingers aimed low , but is in fact the xing of the line as the lead /spent hand/strike, recovers back to a new vu-sao position.
By this action we seamlessly thread the line as we extend and retract our hands .
Therefore making the entry to our own centers as we attack mindlessly, impenetrable because an arm is always striking /deflecting on it…iow the training in vt is to avoid the hands / elbows leaving the line to chase for this reason…to avoid opening up the line…, by maneuvering the line tactically we can achieve this goal…the drills ingrain the intuitive positioning and natural line striking …elbows are kept low to avoid losing the short lever strength/integrity.
Further making the idea of standing shoulder to shoulder as a drill like chi-sao , redundant. As is using two extended arms like chi-sao in a fight also redundant…facing a guy and turning to chase a gate with a flying tan sao off the line…further redundancy…
what are you training to do ? chase and block, stand in the center of a guy who may or may not shoot at your legs…staying in a stance that you did for drills with a partner ? or are you becoming a “Hard Target” …
SO based on that one can see the redundancy of your tan or other arms …leaving the centerline while attacking, further making the idea of tan sao leaving to block / chase a gate redundant too…
tan sao doesnt leave the centerline nor does its striking partned jum sao, these 2 striking partners are the cornerstone of the VT attack. Very simple but with tactical alignment , gives economy of motion 2 actions in each BASIC strike…
The Line serves to gives us a reference in training, why we create a strike line with the wrists along the line …in reality the opening moves are this line , but the idea isnt explained and it is thought of as a high low gaun sao :o …ever wonder why an attacking system starts with 2 defensive actions in succession…answer, it isnt .
Its done with fingers aimed low to avoid raising the elbows …wrists x the line …if you have a rear vu sao xing the line , then on its extension along the line will contact anything on it, even with a blind fold on and no pre-contact/feeling. MAkes running into a punch on the nose as you go to attack a little harder to be done :D.
If you strike along this line at angles , re-enforced through training drills , dummy angling alignment etc…you have a line that naturally intersects anything coming back at it, while you maintain the ttack with little thought to defend your line, because its been taken care of in training.
brilliant system.
Question?
[QUOTE=chusauli;963460]Great job CFT!
Hendrik, you are correct! “Zi Wu Xian” is better than the common vernacular terms and have more meaning. 12 Di Zhi begin with “Zi” and the 7th is “Wu”.
WCK suffers from much incorrect translation, stories, MSU.[/QUOTE]
How does this terminology and knowledge translate into real fighting?
Whats the benefit when it comes to actually fighting off a living, breathing, struggling opponent who is aggressively trying to do you in?