Wing Chun, Bak Mei, SPM, Lung Ying, how different are they?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=esox;948959]find a good teacher as I did, it certainly is not something that can be learned from a book or a video.
Recently when I read Yandle’s description of this I realised more than ever that I would never have understood it had someone tried to explain, you have to develop it yourself through copying your teacher, being corrected constantly and hours of practise and I suppose were it any different it would not be worth knowing,[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

What is the Yandle’s description which make your realised more?

Care to share?

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[QUOTE=chusauli;948877] . . . All Hakka systems use similar mechanics of Tun, Tou, Fou, Chum - WCK even has it. . . . . [/QUOTE]
You beat me to it. I used to watch the guys train JLPM at the Hung Ching club on Canal St in Manhattan. The circling wrists, strike and other aspects are very similar to WC. I’ve always wondered if the Hakka people influenced W since they setteled in Guangdong, Jiangxi, and Fujian .

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;948972]Thanks!

What is the Yandle’s description which make your realised more?

Care to share?[/QUOTE]

Well one example would be where yandle explains that in our techniques we drop at the abdomen whilst rising at the hip. I read this statement and thought,that’s got to be impossible ha.Later when training I realised that that is exactly what I do.
Now my only point is that I could never have learnt that movement from a book, from a video or online it came as an evolutionary process the result being I did
it without knowing.
These subtle things in our styles are not easy to see or explain but we know them, I know from my knowledge of wing chun, which I presume is your style that the subtleties of many techniques would be difficult to see or understand unless you’d built up that understanding through some years of training.

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[QUOTE=esox;949013]Well one example would be where yandle explains that in our techniques we drop at the abdomen whilst rising at the hip. I read this statement and thought,that’s got to be impossible ha.Later when training I realised that that is exactly what I do.
Now my only point is that I could never have learnt that movement from a book, from a video or online it came as an evolutionary process the result being I did
it without knowing.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing.

Ok, the lower abdoment breathing description. Good.

IMHO, there are plenty of those in the IMA.

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that is the thing with learning Gung-Fu. You can’t explain it, read about it, etc and get it. You need to really sweat over it, feel it, bang our head against the wall a few times, and when you eventually do get it, you then read the books, articles etc, and say,“Oh yeah, that’s what they were talking about!”
I am at that point right now with my SPM. My teacher says, “I can’t teach you how to get this. You need to just work, and …get it.” There are no drills, no forms, no writings, just plain old hard work, hands on, getting frustrated, hit, frustratedm hit…did I mention frustrated? LOL
But..for those of us who are doing this thing we do, that is precisely why we love it. Despite the mental, emotional frustration we go through, it is an incredibly rewarding experience, when we get even just a bit.
In SPM, they say,“If you get just a bit, you’ve gotten alot.”
-probabaly written by someone whose been in my shoes…

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;949098]Thanks for sharing.

Ok, the lower abdoment breathing description. Good.

IMHO, there are plenty of those in the IMA.[/QUOTE]

no not the lower abdomen breathing description far far from it. Absolutely nothing to do with the breathing teqncnique which is totally seperate. I rest my case.

My only point in all of this was that you can’t understand a style, any style, unless you’ve trained in it to a fair standered.

You seem to have a different agenda, good night

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that is the thing with learning Gung-Fu. You can’t explain it, read about it, etc and get it. You need to really sweat over it, feel it, bang our head against the wall a few times, and when you eventually do get it, you then read the books, articles etc, and say,“Oh yeah, that’s what they were talking about!”

That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one’s kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.

I am at that point right now with my SPM. My teacher says, “I can’t teach you how to get this. You need to just work, and …get it.” There are no drills, no forms, no writings, just plain old hard work, hands on, getting frustrated, hit, frustratedm hit…did I mention frustrated? LOL

Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.

But..for those of us who are doing this thing we do, that is precisely why we love it. Despite the mental, emotional frustration we go through, it is an incredibly rewarding experience, when we get even just a bit.

I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

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no not the lower abdomen breathing description far far from it. Absolutely nothing to do with the breathing teqncnique which is totally seperate. I rest my case.

OK. you say so.

For me, lower abdoment breathing, the motion of spine .. power generation…etc are an integration either one aware of it or not. BTW I am not taking about breathing technics but breathing/body interaction.

By reading /scanning into this part of the body one can read/scan to find out lots of stuffs on the art.

My only point in all of this was that you can’t understand a style, any style, unless you’ve trained in it to a fair standered.

You are right in one way, one certainly has to trained in it to understand it.

On another hand, those who has advance state kung fu is be able to scan and read a style to a big degree.

You seem to have a different agenda, good night

since i dont know it all.
I have an agenda and that is to discuss in details to clarify what is it, instead of being fuzzy.

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That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one’s kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.

Well, I understand what you are saying. Clearly, you misunderstood what I was referring to. There is certainly a clear direction, and step by step attainment.
It is the development of skill, that takes the time and effort. Gung-Fu-RREAL Gung-Fu is taught through direct transmission. You must feel it, and cultivate it within yourself. In SPM, we call it, “Stealing your Sifu’s hand.” It is not to mean actually stealing, but trying to replicate the exact feel of your Sifu’s hand. You do this by being on the recieving end and then trying to reproduce that exact feeling.
There is also a point, where the progress is brought about by the mind. When you think about what you are doing, and then create a self-evolution. Hard to describe, unless you have experienced this. Like trying to describe what chocolate tastes like.

Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.

again, we are NOT talking about no direction. On the contrary, the student is closely monitored by the Sifu, otherwise, the student can be practicing improperly and develop bad habits, or in the case of hei-gung, develop imbalances.
It doesn’t matter whether you study SPM or not. If your skill is based upon relaxation, sensitivity, proper structure, etc these are basic understandings.

I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?

it seems you have taken a mistaken interpetation of only part of a thought, and from this, drawn ridiculous conclusions. I am sure it is due to a language barrier, and the fact that we are not standing face to face. It is difficult to convey certain things on a forum. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;949120]That is very true for 90% of the people.

But it is not so for those who did IMA well from a real sifu who has mastered the art. A clear direction and step by step attainment is a must.

One sure still need to spend lots of time on it even one is very clear on what is the direction. That is where one’s kung fu comes.

But bang our head against the wall is not an option in serious IMA training.
In fact, in Chinese this is called Mang Xiu Xia lien or training in blind.

Since I dont do SPM, so I am not talking about SPM.

From my experience with WCK and IMA,
I really dont buy this above. If one can perform something with precision. One certainly will be very clear on what one is doing.

It is not plain old hard work. one can doing all the hard work by cooking a pile of sand , but the sand will never turn into Rice.

I dont believe this either. This is a totally waste of life. so I am not belong to that group.

For example, a person who has heart issue needs to cultivate a type of qigong to heal the issue. There is no place for fuzzy-ness. EVen with laser clear direction one still needs to have a sifu making correction a few times before get the basic.

How will one get the result if all one have is fuzzy ideas and who knows will it works?[/QUOTE]

how lucky you where to have such ability and insight without practice and learning, does not kung fu mean that attained by hard effort.

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[QUOTE=esox;949134]how lucky you where to have such ability and insight without practice and learning, does not kung fu mean that attained by hard effort.[/QUOTE]

Kungfu doesnt means hard effort. Indeed it must not be hard effort.
Hard effort never last.

People can practice Zen or IMA for a whole life, that is because the longer they practice the more effortless it becomes.

For the Chinese, it is said " Dao is the nature way". what ever is in the nature way flow like water effortless. One settle with effortless instead of hard effort.

I am certainly lucky because I have Baisi to lots of sifus who instruct me on their arts clearly.
Do I have to practice to make that art mine? sure. But that is not hard effort. That is to transcent myself to become the art.

In fact, I know someone who spend 2 hours everyday for 4 years just to master the basic of lower abdoment breathing. That is not hard effort but lots of fine tuning to transform oneself to harmonize with the nature. if without a clear direction and using hard effort. one will never get that far.

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It is the development of skill, that takes the time and effort.

With a clear direction and instruction, how hard effort is that?
Isnt it just like watering a plant everyday and the plant grow?


Gung-Fu-RREAL Gung-Fu is taught through direct transmission. You must feel it, and cultivate it within yourself.

Still that is not hard effort.

again, we are NOT talking about no direction. On the contrary, the student is closely monitored by the Sifu, otherwise, the student can be practicing improperly and develop bad habits, or in the case of hei-gung, develop imbalances.
It doesn’t matter whether you study SPM or not. If your skill is based upon relaxation, sensitivity, proper structure, etc these are basic understandings.

Still watering plant everyday is not hard effort. one might sweat under the high sun while watering plants but that is not hard effort.

it seems you have taken a mistaken interpetation of only part of a thought, and from this, drawn ridiculous conclusions. I am sure it is due to a language barrier, and the fact that we are not standing face to face. It is difficult to convey certain things on a forum. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Good, thus, I propose we need to communicate pricisely. otherwise, those beginners out there take the “Bruce Lee movies Total concentration Zen instruction” and using hard effort trying to get something out of it. and while Bruce is just making a movie other might think if one uses enough hard effort one can be enlightent, which is totally misleading.

Believe it or not for my decades of practice, only those art which I have never used hard effort that I really have some master over it. those art which I used hard effort to practice, all works against me.